5,800 Workers Voting to Unionize Their Amazon Facility

[Kellhound]

As a certified (non-underwater) welder, my value isn't determined by the number of other certified welders. It's the fact I'm certified. It would be more true for someone who is underwater certified because not only do they need certification in welding but also diving. Their value isn't determined by how many people can do it, it's the fact they are certified to do it. Any moron can watch a video on how to scuba dive, but to do it properly and safely you need to be certified. Just like any idiot can pick up a rod and say they're a welder. In order to do my (previous ) job you have to be certified. That deserves a higher pay grade compared to someone who isn't certified. Had my job not been union I wouldn't have been making as much as I did.

You are still competing against people with your skillset 9in this case certified welder). If you cannot weld to the level needed, you are not going to be hired. If you can, you will be paid what the market will bear for that level of skill. If there is a shortage of skilled welders, your value goes up. If there is a glut of skilled welders your value goes down. You admit that your union artificially increased your value.

[Mihalik]

Servility has been beaten into the American national consciousness to a degree that amazes me, people will argue endlessly against their own economic interests on behalf of their corporate overlords no matter just how miserable their labor conditions and salaries actually are, and believe that their misery somehow makes them "free".

It's a sight to behold.

(P.S I'm writing this as an American who happens to work in corporate upper management levels in Europe. The shit an American worker will happily eat for pittance is unique in the developed world.)

[Glorious Leader]

I didn't say it was easy, I said it was preferable.

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Again, unions artificially raise the value of labor. Your "skill" is underwater welding, your only competition is other underwater welders. If there are more underwater welders than there are jobs, the value of your skill decreases. On the other hand, if the demand for underwater welders far exceeds the supply, your value balloons significantly.

This concept of "artificially increasing the wage" seems to suggest their is some natural wage that exists irrespective of literally every other condition. Why are wage increases because of collective bargaining any more or less "artifical" than say a scarcity n the market for engineers? let's say an economic crash happens and the labor market is depressed is this artifical or natural? I want to tease this distinction out because I think its a really weak attempt to ignore the structural forces that undergird any wage negotiation. If a wage negotiation is actually a power dynamic then you can't simple wish that away by saying supply and demand. Hell even that itself doesn't just exist naturally. A number of factors can influence supply and demand and its hard to see why any of these are "artifical".

[Mihalik]

You are still competing against people with your skillset 9in this case certified welder). If you cannot weld to the level needed, you are not going to be hired. If you can, you will be paid what the market will bear for that level of skill. If there is a shortage of skilled welders, your value goes up. If there is a glut of skilled welders your value goes down. You admit that your union artificially increased your value.

That's not how the labor market, or specifically certified skilled labor works whatsoever. Unionization, collective negotiation and union regulatory lobbying all interact to determine what counts as "skilled labor" and how to price it. Remove unions and there are various work arounds available for industry to decrease the value of skilled labor. Anything ranging from lowering quality standards, outsourcing, in-house training coupled with prohibitive exclusivity contracts, proprietary processes with non-transferable labor skills etc.

You are very fixated on the word "artificial", something that is actually utterly meaningless in this context. The "market" isn't something governed by natural laws or whatnot. Unionization increasing the value of labor is just as artificial as lack of unionization decreasing the value of labor. The market is an artificial human construct, and everything besides weather and the sheer availability of raw materials (tho even there there are artificial influences) is an artificial influence on the behavior of the market. You need to really chill with this weird "market" worship.

[Kellhound]

This concept of "artificially increasing the wage" seems to suggest their is some natural wage that exists irrespective of literally every other condition. Why are wage increases because of collective bargaining any more or less "artifical" than say a scarcity n the market for engineers? let's say an economic crash happens and the labor market is depressed is this artifical or natural? I want to tease this distinction out because I think its a really weak attempt to ignore the structural forces that undergird any wage negotiation. If a wage negotiation is actually a power dynamic then you can't simple wish that away by saying supply and demand. Hell even that itself doesn't just exist naturally. A number of factors can influence supply and demand and its hard to see why any of these are "artifical".

Wage negotiation is easy, the more in demand your skills are, the more you make. Artificial is when rules are put into place that are specifically intended to remove supply and demand of skill from wages. I am not saying it is good or bad, just what it is.

[Templar 331]

You are still competing against people with your skillset 9in this case certified welder). If you cannot weld to the level needed, you are not going to be hired. If you can, you will be paid what the market will bear for that level of skill. If there is a shortage of skilled welders, your value goes up. If there is a glut of skilled welders your value goes down. You admit that your union artificially increased your value.

No, they didn't. They ensured I was paid what I am owed for being certified and even then I was being paid on the low end of the scale. Do you think $24/hour for the level of certification I have and the work I do is "inflated?" I worked for a multi-BILLION dollar corporation. The top execs in the company make several million dollar bonuses yearly so don't give me that crap about "what the market can handle." It's all about what they can get away with and paying us as low as they can.

This narrative you're pushing is nothing more than conservative nonsense to make you think you aren't worth more. That the system is right in it's judgement of your worth. Do you know who's creating that system? Do you know who's benefiting from it? Not you or me that's for sure. It's nothing more than a race to the bottom. A lie you can parrot when others start thinking they should be treated fairly. And the only means we have of leveling the field is with unions because our elected officials are bought off.

[Kellhound]

That's not how the labor market, or specifically certified skilled labor works whatsoever. Unionization, collective negotiation and union regulatory lobbying all interact to determine what counts as "skilled labor" and how to price it. Remove unions and there are various work arounds available for industry to decrease the value of skilled labor. Anything ranging from lowering quality standards, outsourcing, in-house training coupled with prohibitive exclusivity contracts, proprietary processes with non-transferable labor skills etc.

You are very fixated on the word "artificial", something that is actually utterly meaningless in this context. The "market" isn't something governed by natural laws or whatnot. Unionization increasing the value of labor is just as artificial as lack of unionization decreasing the value of labor. The market is an artificial human construct, and everything besides weather and the sheer availability of raw materials (tho even there there are artificial influences) is an artificial influence on the behavior of the market. You need to really chill with this weird "market" worship.

Artificially constraining the supply of labor is still artificial.

The true value of labor is the cost to hire/retain the number and quality of personnel needed to produce the quantity and of product sold without dictated minimums.

[Mihalik]

Wage negotiation is easy, the more in demand your skills are, the more you make. Artificial is when rules are put into place that are specifically intended to remove supply and demand of skill from wages. I am not saying it is good or bad, just what it is.

As I said earlier, rules that influence the value of labor exist to offset the tools available to industry to decrease the value of labor. The question isn't whether interfering with the value of labor should exist or not, the question is who gets to influence the value of labor to what degree. In the absence of unions, the value of labor is determined by industry, and industry will do everything under the sun to decrease the value of labor to maximize profit.

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Artificially constraining the supply of labor is still artificial.

The true value of labor is the cost to hire/retain the number and quality of personnel needed to produce the quantity and of product sold without dictated minimums.

Without dictated minimums the cost of hiring and retention can be pushed fucking rock bottom to a much greater degree than you can possibly imagine. I even listed some of the techniques available to do so. None of this is a novelty, it has literally all been done before in the heydays of industrialization.

There are others, especially in the US, like the interaction between employer provided healthcare, wages and worker retention, and glaringly, deregulatory lobbying concerning industry standards, product safety standards and labor standards.

[Stormspellz]

Your spin is as hilariously bad as the pro-union radicals here.
1. A poster? So? Unions handed out their own propaganda to all employees. Don't see you out raged about that. Oh I forgot, It's perfectly OK for Un
ions to do it, but the company is not allowed to inform it's employees about unions. Your hypocrisy is growing.

2. Show me proof that Amazon fired anyone for mentioning unions. So, not only are you a hypocrite, you are a liar too.

3. LOL calling far left media who spin their reporting to fit their pro-union bias is not reporting.

4.Everyone votes. That camera also can't show you how they voted. That camera is also a security camera and no matter where the mailbox is put, a security camera will be on it. If they are not allowed to install a box, then the USPS should be reported. Since they haven't been, it;s the Unions once again lying out their rears. That argument is beyond ridiculous.

Your post is notiing but parroting the propaganda used by the media arm of the unions. Also funny how you completely spun away from unions screwing their members over on wages and refusing to condemn them for it. Your silence and hypocrisy is deafening.

ah yes the , "show me proof" troll two step

next step;

no not that proof because its from a "fake news" source even if it can be sourced and verified.

rinse and repeat

[Kellhound]

No, they didn't. They ensured I was paid what I am owed for being certified and even then I was being paid on the low end of the scale. Do you think $24/hour for the level of certification I have and the work I do is "inflated?" I worked for a multi-BILLION dollar corporation. The top execs in the company make several million dollar bonuses yearly so don't give me that crap about "what the market can handle." It's all about what they can get away with and paying us as low as they can.

This narrative you're pushing is nothing more than conservative nonsense to make you think you aren't worth more. That the system is right in it's judgement of your worth. Do you know who's creating that system? Do you know who's benefiting from it? Not you or me that's for sure. It's nothing more than a race to the bottom. A lie you can parrot when others start thinking they should be treated fairly. And the only means we have of leveling the field is with unions because our elected officials are bought off.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe becoming a certified welder takes nothing more than being able to pass the AWS practical test. What is the regular wage for a non-union certified welder doing similar work in your area? Is it less than $24 an hour? If so, yes it is inflated.

I am saying it is artificial, not if it is bad or good.

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As I said earlier, rules that influence the value of labor exist to offset the tools available to industry to decrease the value of labor. The question isn't whether interfering with the value of labor should exist or not, the question is who gets to influence the value of labor to what degree. In the absence of unions, the value of labor is determined by industry, and industry will do everything under the sun to decrease the value of labor to maximize profit.

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Without dictated minimums the cost of hiring and retention can be pushed fucking rock bottom to a much greater degree than you can possibly imagine. I even listed some of the techniques available to do so. None of this is a novelty, it has literally all been done before in the heydays of industrialization.

There are others, especially in the US, like the interaction between employer provided healthcare, wages and worker retention, and glaringly, deregulatory lobbying concerning industry standards, product safety standards and labor standards.

The race to the bottom only exists when there is more labor than work available. Hence why my company will pay complete idiots off the street more than minimum wage for simple manual jobs.

[Endus]

The most common purpose of a union is to artificially inflate the value of its members' labor. (Not saying that is good or bad, just what it is.)

By describing it as an "artificial inflation", you're implicitly arguing that A> it's not natural, and B> it's "bad".

If we're going to be fair and state there are no "natural" pressures, here, then they're pushing to inflate the value of members' labor. Because the employer is constantly working to devalue workers' labor. Unions exist to be an opposing force to that. They do not exist within a vacuum, but as a direct response to extant devaluation.

Seriously, it's economics. It's literally all "artificial".

[Templar 331]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe becoming a certified welder takes nothing more than being able to pass the AWS practical test. What is the regular wage for a non-union certified welder doing similar work in your area? Is it less than $24 an hour? If so, yes it is inflated.

I am saying it is artificial, not if it is bad or good.

You make it sound like I sat down and took a written test. Last I heard you can pay $500 per test plate to be certified, but it has to be near flawless depending on what degree you wish to be certified. Mine is to the 1.1 standard, which is flawless. I was fortunate that when I was laid off during the recession I could go to tech school and receive unemployment the entire time. It took a year and a half to finish and be certified. My certification plates were 3/8 inch thick and there were 4 of them. The test plates for my job were 3/4 inch thick by 12 inch long and there were 7 of them. Three SMAW, three FCAW and one stainless steal plate. The SS one was in 2G position and the rest were 2G, 3G and 4G. It took 12 hours over the course of two days to finish those. It took the whole year of practicing every day before I was good enough to take these tests. And most who took the class didn't make it to the end.

As for the non-union certified welding jobs, there aren't many. I am in the process of applying for a few but with "falsifying documents" on my termination letter makes it a bit hard to get one. I'm more than likely going to have to work at a place that doesn't care if you are certified or not and will have to take a major pay cut. Or go on the road and I really don't want that. That is were the union jobs are typically located at. Away from home....

[Glorious Leader]

Wage negotiation is easy, the more in demand your skills are, the more you make. Artificial is when rules are put into place that are specifically intended to remove supply and demand of skill from wages. I am not saying it is good or bad, just what it is.

That is the most simplistic view of the labor field and is basically ignorant of any class analysis. In short its not representative of reality in any way shape or form.

[Slant]

Repeating BS spin doesn't make it fact.

Sure ignore the rest of the post. That'll make you look like you have a point... so you're essentially in favour of the exploitation of the workforce, that is my takeaway from this. Gives me even more reason to promote unions, to spite people like you.

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"Good" and "bad" are subjective. Also, strength (especially in numbers) is not the same as quality. A strong union does not mean it is a quality union.

I'm glad to see you understand that unions are industrial level extortion.

Of course they are extortion. Why? Because the workforce has no defense against corporate greed. It's not the unions that start the extortion, it's the corporations. If your only argument is "don't blackmail the blackmailers", that's a weak ass argument, my man. That unions in the US suck is a problem, I agree with that. But that doesn't mean the concept of unions is faulty. Just means replacing corporate greed with union greed is not the point of unions. The point of unions is to fight labour battles ON BEHALF of their union members.

There's a reason why unions and labour councils in companies are regulated by law in Germany. It's to prevent bad unions from developing and to ensure that unions can't be blocked out. For instance, in Germany if you are voted into the labour council of a company (mandatory for companies above 40 people btw), you cannot legally be fired unless in the most extreme circumstances (ie. you stealing from the company as an example). Labor protection in the US needs to happen or you'll just continue widening the pay gap. But, of course... that requires regulation and your glorious GOP keeps selling the libertarian (ie. really corporatist) idea of deregulation because that's better for anyone (anyone owning a company that is).

It's amazing that your blue collar workers keep voting for people that want to fuck them over.

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The most common purpose of a union is to artificially inflate the value of its members' labor. (Not saying that is good or bad, just what it is.)

Wrong. The purpose of unions is to represent their workers in labor disputes. When the owner of a company meets up with a worker to discuss his contract, that is not a negotiation between equals. Especially not in the US. That's extortion. Take this contract or you're out. The union balances that negotiation by representing all of its union members. That's not an artificial inflation of the value of their labor, that's an inflation of the negotiation position. The labor is worth the same it always was. The point is that in the US the workforce is being sold out WAY under value. Labor protection is a joke over there.

Can you really call it inflation if it gets the value to its correct price? Maybe it's not an inflation but rather a correction of artificial deflation.

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As I said, they make employees more valuable than the market dictates. You can coach it in more flattering terms, but at the end of the day, that is their function.

The market dictates? The market would reintroduce slavery if that was legal. The market is shit and by no means a measure to be used seriously in a discussion like this. The market kills people. 100% turbo capitalism is not the way to go. Jeez, and you wonder why the US is so fucked up it votes a clown like Trump into office. That's desperation... maybe you will get your civil war at some point. And that point will be when people wise up to Amazon just barely clearing the "this is slavery" hurdle while the founder jumps to the top of Forbes' billionair pissing contest. I'm surprised with all these mass shootings that nobody decided to go and kill these billionaires, yet. It's amazing how he increases his net value by 50% while HIS drivers have to piss in bottles to get through the day.

And you think that's cool, that's alright because "the market dictates" it. That's amazing in its own right... :P

[Kellhound]

By describing it as an "artificial inflation", you're implicitly arguing that A> it's not natural, and B> it's "bad".

If we're going to be fair and state there are no "natural" pressures, here, then they're pushing to inflate the value of members' labor. Because the employer is constantly working to devalue workers' labor. Unions exist to be an opposing force to that. They do not exist within a vacuum, but as a direct response to extant devaluation.

Seriously, it's economics. It's literally all "artificial".

Artificial inflation is like artificial insemination; neither are natural and if they are good/bad depends on your own opinion.

An employer can only devalue labor when there is a surplus of it.

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You make it sound like I sat down and took a written test. Last I heard you can pay $500 per test plate to be certified, but it has to be near flawless depending on what degree you wish to be certified. Mine is to the 1.1 standard, which is flawless. I was fortunate that when I was laid off during the recession I could go to tech school and receive unemployment the entire time. It took a year and a half to finish and be certified. My certification plates were 3/8 inch thick and there were 4 of them. The test plates for my job were 3/4 inch thick by 12 inch long and there were 7 of them. Three SMAW, three FCAW and one stainless steal plate. The SS one was in 2G position and the rest were 2G, 3G and 4G. It took 12 hours over the course of two days to finish those. It took the whole year of practicing every day before I was good enough to take these tests. And most who took the class didn't make it to the end.

As for the non-union certified welding jobs, there aren't many. I am in the process of applying for a few but with "falsifying documents" on my termination letter makes it a bit hard to get one. I'm more than likely going to have to work at a place that doesn't care if you are certified or not and will have to take a major pay cut. Or go on the road and I really don't want that. That is were the union jobs are typically located at. Away from home....

Hence why I said practical test and not just test. The only requirement for certification is skill, it doesn't matter how you got the skill. That does not mean its easy to pass the test.

Well, getting fired for falsifying documents is not easy to overcome in any profession. I honestly wish you good luck.

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That is the most simplistic view of the labor field and is basically ignorant of any class analysis. In short its not representative of reality in any way shape or form.

A quick look at Craigslist says its pretty representative of reality.

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Sure ignore the rest of the post. That'll make you look like you have a point... so you're essentially in favour of the exploitation of the workforce, that is my takeaway from this. Gives me even more reason to promote unions, to spite people like you.

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Of course they are extortion. Why? Because the workforce has no defense against corporate greed. It's not the unions that start the extortion, it's the corporations. If your only argument is "don't blackmail the blackmailers", that's a weak ass argument, my man. That unions in the US suck is a problem, I agree with that. But that doesn't mean the concept of unions is faulty. Just means replacing corporate greed with union greed is not the point of unions. The point of unions is to fight labour battles ON BEHALF of their union members.

There's a reason why unions and labour councils in companies are regulated by law in Germany. It's to prevent bad unions from developing and to ensure that unions can't be blocked out. For instance, in Germany if you are voted into the labour council of a company (mandatory for companies above 40 people btw), you cannot legally be fired unless in the most extreme circumstances (ie. you stealing from the company as an example). Labor protection in the US needs to happen or you'll just continue widening the pay gap. But, of course... that requires regulation and your glorious GOP keeps selling the libertarian (ie. really corporatist) idea of deregulation because that's better for anyone (anyone owning a company that is).

It's amazing that your blue collar workers keep voting for people that want to fuck them over.

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Wrong. The purpose of unions is to represent their workers in labor disputes. When the owner of a company meets up with a worker to discuss his contract, that is not a negotiation between equals. Especially not in the US. That's extortion. Take this contract or you're out. The union balances that negotiation by representing all of its union members. That's not an artificial inflation of the value of their labor, that's an inflation of the negotiation position. The labor is worth the same it always was. The point is that in the US the workforce is being sold out WAY under value. Labor protection is a joke over there.

Can you really call it inflation if it gets the value to its correct price? Maybe it's not an inflation but rather a correction of artificial deflation.

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The market dictates? The market would reintroduce slavery if that was legal. The market is shit and by no means a measure to be used seriously in a discussion like this. The market kills people. 100% turbo capitalism is not the way to go. Jeez, and you wonder why the US is so fucked up it votes a clown like Trump into office. That's desperation... maybe you will get your civil war at some point. And that point will be when people wise up to Amazon just barely clearing the "this is slavery" hurdle while the founder jumps to the top of Forbes' billionair pissing contest. I'm surprised with all these mass shootings that nobody decided to go and kill these billionaires, yet. It's amazing how he increases his net value by 50% while HIS drivers have to piss in bottles to get through the day.

And you think that's cool, that's alright because "the market dictates" it. That's amazing in its own right... :P

I am glad to see at least someone is willing to admit that unions are extortionists. It is up to each individual to decide if that is ok or not, just as it is up to each individual to decide if corporate extortion is ok or not.

On a side note, I actually do believe in regulation when appropriate and I am not against the concept of unions in principle.

[Slant]

I am glad to see at least someone is willing to admit that unions are extortionists. It is up to each individual to decide if that is ok or not, just as it is up to each individual to decide if corporate extortion is ok or not.

On a side note, I actually do believe in regulation when appropriate and I am not against the concept of unions in principle.

I wonder, are you one of those guys that walks up to the gas station and unironically calls their prices extortion, too?

[SirBeef]

ah yes the , "show me proof" troll two step

next step;

no not that proof because its from a "fake news" source even if it can be sourced and verified.

rinse and repeat

I should have just added the idiot to my ignore a while ago. I mean there is Rashad Long in NY you was fired for stuff that wasn't an issue until he tried organizing a union. Of course he wasn't fired for saying union, but it's funny how missing metrics isn't an issue until he talked about unionizing.

[Templar 331]

Hence why I said practical test and not just test. The only requirement for certification is skill, it doesn't matter how you got the skill. That does not mean its easy to pass the test.

There's a meme I saw a while back that sums up my thoughts pretty nicely.

"You aren't paying me for the 10 minutes it took me to do the job, you are paying me the years it took me to be good enough to do the job in 10 minutes."

Well, getting fired for falsifying documents is not easy to overcome in any profession. I honestly wish you good luck.

Thanks.

[Kellhound]

I wonder, are you one of those guys that walks up to the gas station and unironically calls their prices extortion, too?

I consider OPEC to practice extortion at times, but in general no I do not consider the price of gas to be extortion. If I don't like the price of gas I just don't use as much.

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There's a meme I saw a while back that sums up my thoughts pretty nicely.

"You aren't paying me for the 10 minutes it took me to do the job, you are paying me the years it took me to be good enough to do the job in 10 minutes."



Thanks.

Hmm... Does that mean a person who took 3 years to achieve perfection should be paid more than the person who only took 3 months?

[Templar 331]

Hmm... Does that mean a person who took 3 years to achieve perfection should be paid more than the person who only took 3 months?

You don't get to "perfection" in 3 months. There are some more gifted than others, but it doesn't happen in that short of a time frame. It took me 4 years of MIG welding at my first welding job before I learned how to weld with stick and even then I was close to giving up several times. That is why someone who is certified should be paid more than someone who is not. And any job that requires certification is a job best suited for a union to ensure the workers are paid what they are worth.

Another point to think about, how much longer do you think the person who's welded for 3 months will take doing the same job as a welder who's done it for 3 years? Can they do it is as well as the senior guy? From experience, no. My company has hired people off the street without certification to fill positions before. The company itself "certifies" these welders in house but those certs can't be taken to other companies. Few of them last long.

And with a lacking of certified welders available for hire shouldn't we be getting a pay raise? Aren't my services more valuable now? No. The company just tells us to increase production. I shit you not the last time we were told what our efficiency had to be it was 160%! They would reduce the amount of time allocated to all of the jobs we had to do by another 30%(it was 130% before). Now we couldn't be fired for production thanks to the union, but that didn't stop the company's bullshit.