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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Appelgren View Post
    Agree to disagree
    Agree to agree with your agreeing to disagree.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    Most MMO's are just a standard copy of WoW at this point. They're too scared to innovate on MMORPG aspects.
    Its a bit different. Most western players play wow or themepark mmos that could be labelled wow clone. If you look however at the market i dont think the majority of mmos qualifies for wow clone and outside the west its not wow clones that dominate.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Frinata View Post
    MMORPG

    Massively
    Multiplayer
    Online
    Roleplaying
    Game

    World of Warcraft fits all of those. I don't really know what else to tell you on that. You might not enjoy the particular take on it, but WoW's PvE game has always been around instanced content. The only parts that aren't are Leveling, Daily Quests (Now World Quests), and End Game questlines. PvP started out open world, sure, but then came BGs, and then Arenas. Theres no real motivation or reward for open world PvP, not that there hasn't been efforts to promote it, with the last gasp currently having been Ashran.
    I don't think WoW checking all those boxes was ever in question.

    As someone who played since Wrath, I feel like the issue is sacrificing complexity for easier to understand systems, and confusing annoying gimmicks as "deep character building."

    In my experience the game is better when it functions as an online game where you build characters that are unique in many different ways. You could argue, of course, that the elitist trends in games across the board have bled into WoW and made the "do what you want to do" element impossible, but I actually think Blizzard's clear desire to make this a game that appeals to everyone rather than the demographic it was originally made to please is the issue.

    You could say the demographic that loved WoW from Vanilla-Wrath has aged out of viability for playing it, but I think it ignores that you could just as easily find players who would still enjoy a more complex mmo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    MMOs are doomed to fail because of third party sites? I can get not liking the way everything gets datamined in advance but WOW is still going strong, as are FFXIV, ESO and maybe some other MMOs I don't keep track of.

    Maybe one aspect of MMOs that you like has weakened because of stuff like wow head, but the genre itself is still going on.
    The datamining element if definitely a problem. 3rd party sites ruin games in ways people don't really think about. Once you start consciously going to wowhead or MMO-Champ to find the "best" talent or what's coming next, the game loses its luster and surprise. There's nothing new to discover because it already exists.

    The solution would be to cease and desist every guide website that datamines content, but Blizzard won't for obvious reasons.

  4. #44
    New MMORPGs won't survive, yes.

    But those that are already established will.

    Thing is you realistically have barely enough time as an adult nowadays. So playing more than 1 is quite the hard task. And chances are you already playing one if you like the genre so moving to a new one is an "out of hand" idea.

    If you are a gaming company you're better off focusing on "single player" experiences with some multiplayer. Like Genshin Impact (or wow lol)

    As of WoW dying, nah mate, the only thing that can kill WoW, is WoW.
    Last edited by javierdsv; 2021-03-02 at 10:59 PM.

  5. #45
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
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    Just look at LFR.

    There is large amounts of people that do not visit sites like Mmo-champ, icy Veins, or wowhead.

  6. #46
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    It's a mixed bag, for sure. I enjoy learning dungeons by just doing them, but my raid team rightfully expects me to read up and learn boss fights beforehand to minimize our initial time wiping like crazy. Of course, you don't have to use datamined stuff, and in general, I don't. I prefer just to play and learn rather than read it ahead of time.
    Sure, you definitely don't have to, but there's a lot of pressure to do so. At least in the guilds I've been in or in the pugs I've joined in WoW. I understand why people do it and I was definitely one of the ones who wanted to do it, so I could perform to the best of my abilities, but seeing that it's not even an option in FFXIV made me enjoy that aspect of it.

  7. #47
    I think you're kinda throwing a lot into one pot to blame datamining.

    It seems more that Blizzard has started to target an audience that has no real interest in getting engaged with the world, everything is designed an easy to consume / split up experience, such as dungeons are only allowed to be of a certain length.

    Datamining bears some blame, but it's difficult to create a "deep" experience for people that only have an hour or two to play in a single play session.

    Also blaming the loss of the social aspect on datamining is a massive generalizing, some people just don't want to socialize when playing WoW while also seeing the majority of the content the game offers, whether that's good or not is another debate, but Blizzard has increasingly designed the game around those people.

  8. #48
    You know, people can choose not to read up on all the datamining. I used to check everything wow related and especially future content. Last couple of years i've seen the cinematics for each xpac/content patch, and overlooked all other info. Made it so I go into each xpac/patch fresh.

    Yeah its probably a big minus for those that want to be 100% prepared and focused on min/max, but im not that kind of player. I actually had quite alot of fun with SL, since I managed to ignore most stuff about it. Sadly, didnt take too long before I got bored of it.

    You can learn everything there is to know about any game these days without even playing it.

  9. #49
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    WoW is no longer an MMORPG technically, it's more a glorified lobby with instanced content to do. Matchmaking is almost fully automated. No doubt that in the future, more stuff will get automated matchmaking. Such as arena and perhaps normal to heroic raid difficulty.
    Just thought I would comment on this. WoW is an MMORPG TECHNICALLY. You see it as a glorified lobby with instanced content to do.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    WoW is no longer an MMORPG technically, it's more a glorified lobby with instanced content to do. Matchmaking is almost fully automated. No doubt that in the future, more stuff will get automated matchmaking. Such as arena and perhaps normal to heroic raid difficulty.

    And the other MMORPG's that come out, are too scared to innovate or adress the elephant in the room:

    Datamining.

    You see, the reason why World of Warcraft felt so beloved in our hearts was because we didn't have much information about the game during that time. We had to explore, we didn't have a wiki to say which areas were useful to go into. We just saw a cool tower and we felt the need to explore.
    Right now, tons and tons of people just datamine every little bit of information available in the game before it can even reach live at some point and putting that all into a wiki. Theorycrafting it to death as a result. It's impossible for a game to have any secrets that the community has to work towards discovering.
    MMORPG's are community driven, or atleast they should be. Nowadays, Blizzard artificially creates group content. Most of the players we encounter, we won't see again. Everything's phased or instanced. "WORLD" of warcraft, but most of the shit is phased/instanced, ironically.

    Blizzard does not want the community to ever interact with eachother, unless it's at a high end level. Like mythic raiding. Most of the game is easily soloable thanks to automatic matchmaking, or the content being nihil or easy to complete that you don't need a group for it. (looking at you old raids)

    And yes, a part of it is to blame with Blizzard still catering to E-sports and mythic raiders.
    There is literally no reason to venture out into the world if you don't care about "MOUNTS, MOGS AND CHEEVOS". Once you get past a certain point of Ilvl, WQs become obsolete to do. Aswell as profession gear and the rest of the "world content".

    Because ofcourse, if you had to go out and farm rep, let's say for an enchant on your gear that would boost your powerlevel, Mythic or high end players would complain they had to do said content and it would get datamined and put up on WoWhead for all to see anyway. So what's the point of adding such stuff in the first place?

    Blizzard let WoWhead have too much influence on the game. There's no adventure or sense of exploration. No myths or legends. It's all datamined and put up on WoWhead. Player's don't need to interact with eachother anymore. They no longer need to ask eachother for help.

    MMORPG's are just doomed to fail at this point.
    You have a point OP and I 100% agree with you. Anyone knows if it's possible for games to prevent datamining?
    You don't understand. Having an unpayed full time job that no one appreciates is the magic of classic.

    It's about the journey. The journey into depression. The journey of running a daycare full of middle-aged alcoholics ignoring their SOs and avoiding social engagements to fulfill something they wanted 15 years ago before everyone realized it's not hard at all.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Overlordd View Post
    WoW is no longer an MMORPG technically, it's more a glorified lobby with instanced content to do. Matchmaking is almost fully automated. No doubt that in the future, more stuff will get automated matchmaking. Such as arena and perhaps normal to heroic raid difficulty.

    .
    This is only true for very low rated pve. If you decide to put yourself in with the extreme casual crowd thats your own decsision.

    Raiding has always been better and more fun with a guild. There are plenty of people still raiding with guilds. Same with dungeons and m+ and pvp.

    You are setting the barrier for yourself.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by javierdsv View Post
    New MMORPGs won't survive, yes.

    If you are a gaming company you're better off focusing on "single player" experiences with some multiplayer. Like Genshin Impact (or wow lol)
    Read black desert devs had same idea. Next game Crimson Desert was retailored from mmo to more singleplayer storydriven though they also seem to release a regular mmo on mobile.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I think you're kinda throwing a lot into one pot to blame datamining.

    It seems more that Blizzard has started to target an audience that has no real interest in getting engaged with the world, everything is designed an easy to consume / split up experience, such as dungeons are only allowed to be of a certain length.

    Datamining bears some blame, but it's difficult to create a "deep" experience for people that only have an hour or two to play in a single play session.

    Also blaming the loss of the social aspect on datamining is a massive generalizing, some people just don't want to socialize when playing WoW while also seeing the majority of the content the game offers, whether that's good or not is another debate, but Blizzard has increasingly designed the game around those people.
    Yeah its more about how the game is played now. I've enjoyed most of wows xpacs, even BfA. What all the last I would say 4 xpacs have in common is that they were nice when you started leveling and for a while after reaching max level. Then quickly the interest fades off, when you realise theres not much to do besides just grinds. At a certain point, the grinds gets to boring to do after having done them for many years.

    Theres also how patches are buildt up now. You dont need to keep playing throughout a whole xpac. These days you can level up, do max lvl content until you are bored of it, unsub. Sub back when new patch hits. Play that a bit, unsub when bored. With each xpacs theres catchup systems in place anyway, so you wont be far behind those who have kept on playing.

    Get in, play the game some, unsub, come back later. Repeat.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    Read black desert devs had same idea. Next game Crimson Desert was retailored from mmo to more singleplayer storydriven though they also seem to release a regular mmo on mobile.
    I dont think the problem is that mmo's cant survive anymore. I think the problem is that noone has been able to pinpoint what it is people actually want from an mmo(including themselves). And corporations, even the big ones, are scared of making one thats just gonna flop because it costs so much money to set up.

  15. #55
    When you first heard "MMORPG era is long gone and genre is already dead"? I remember 2013-2014 for sure, but I think this bullshit started around 2010. I guess this is year when OP was frozen.

  16. #56
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    FFXIV does that, and I love it. Jumping into the new content and just figuring it out with other people together, as opposed to the WoW expectation that you've watched all the videos and are already completely prescribed to the predetermined methodologies.
    Hey...would be nice to see it in WoW just for once after...no idea...over 10 years..see how it goes.

  17. #57
    This is mostly just a Blizzard/WoW problem. There are plenty of other MMO type games where the community and open world interaction are still intact. The gameplay direction of WoW took a nosedive somewhere between Cata and now.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    You can do that if you want. Doesn't mean it's not a roleplaying game.
    My point was that it's a very popular method of getting max level now, to the point it's basically encouraged for efficiency. If not engaging in any roleplay elements that make an RPG exactly that is a viable and popular method of playing the game, I wouldn't really consider it an MMORPG to a large majority of the playerbase. It's all semantics anyway.

  19. #59
    Herald of the Titans Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Hey...would be nice to see it in WoW just for once after...no idea...over 10 years..see how it goes.
    Unlikely. FFXIV does everything in house so there is no open beta or even a PTR. To give WoW the same chance, you would need to remove both these things that have been parts of the game since it began.

  20. #60
    Nice blog post.

    You're wrong, btw.

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