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  1. #121
    God I wish ESO had proper datamining. There are sites that do it and they are solid for spoilers but there is nothing nearly as effective as WoWHead's database and considering the VAST amount of collectibles (especially when it comes to furnishings) a better site than e.g. ESO-HUB would be very welcome.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by lolmmofuture View Post
    i agree, but this is a wow problem, not an mmo problem

    wow is the one thats fking it up
    WoW is the one that's fucking it up by drawing all of the MMO crowd and encouraging other MMOs to copy its design

  3. #123
    People often confuse "dead or dying" with "isn't the most popular" these days. I don't think MMOs are as popular in a market share sense as they once were but they are far from "not surviving". It is like saying Pepsi is a dying company because Coke sells more soda. Truth is they are both fine weather you like one more than the other.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Deferionus View Post
    We had Thottbot in vanilla. I used it while leveling before BC came out lol.
    I remember that (and Alhakazam I think?), but I wasn't 100% sure on how they got the info.

    But I distinctly remembered TBC's beta and datamining of stuff from it. That was back when Blizzard actively went after dataminers (some of them anyway). I remember people digging out armor, weapon, and mob models, then Blizzard C&Ding them, only for it to pop up elsewhere. Similar happened in WotLK. I believe they fully gave up around Cataclysm.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Unlikely. FFXIV does everything in house so there is no open beta or even a PTR. To give WoW the same chance, you would need to remove both these things that have been parts of the game since it began.
    Yeah, it's not going to happen with WoW. The information was always available to us - it was just a question about how intensely and slavishly we'd pursue that knowledge.

    That being said, FFXIV's process did manage to preserve just a hint of that mystery - that thrill of booting up an MMO for the first time.

  6. #126
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Remember Allakhazam?
    I 'member.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

  7. #127
    The demise of wow has often been predicted here, and we aren't there yet. *But* it is clear that it's enduring a slow natural decline. Too many expansions in a row that were underwhelming and where Blizz failed to recapture the magic of earlier expansions like TBC or Wrath. I'm not sure they've even been able to match MoP ftm.

    And now with Activision really pulling the strings more than ever now, people got bored and left SL more quickly than ever, and the design decisions in SL don't give me a lot of hope that Blizzard will be able to right the ship. In fact it's more the other direction, with Activision doubling down on a 2-year expansion cycle for both classic and modern wow. It backtracks on the prior plans to push content and expansions more quickly. That isn't happening. Regardless of how we feel from a love for wow standpoint, Activision is looking at the declining #'s and instead of pushing modern wow content out faster, the decision has been made to fill that gap with pushing out bi-annual classic expansions that take relatively little dev work by recycling content.

    In a way it's a bit like the tax revenue in the real world. A neighborhood has crime go up, people/businesses leave, tax revenue goes down, and there's less money for police so it becomes a cycle. In the same way revenue and sales from gamers are the fuel for new content (normally). As those drop, and drop precipitously, Activision will put less dev money will go into the front end. And we've really seen that for a few expansions, where it's subtle but the real quality content is lighter and lighter. For example there are no new customizations, races, classes, etc. coming in SL patches, just dungeons and raids. Now committed to a real 2 year expansion cycle with just Classic expansions between and minor dungeon/raid patches for wow isn't enough to keep people around. If subs drop by 1/2 in 2 months, what happens in 12 months? Eventually as wow works it's way down the popularity list and less content is pushed out to wring the last drop of revenue out from hardcore wow lovers, it will someday get to the point of Activision just moving on. We aren't there yet, but it's slow death by a thousand internal cuts, not from a competitor's better mmo or even gamers getting tired of the mmorpg genre (look at Valheim).
    Last edited by Biglog; 2021-03-03 at 03:12 PM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    I 'member.
    I do remember

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Valette View Post
    Oh I see. Thanks for educating me. I personally like ffxiv's approach better, that they try to keep the general public from having the story spoiled. Gave patch days a much bigger community feel in my eyes. Like we were all logging on and experiencing the story together.
    I agree! Not having to worry about story spoilers is great Though as someone who DOES do datamining...I've come across some pictures by accident during a patch (like the pictures that show up during the credits after the MSQ) that completely spoiled something for me T_T Never fun to have that happen, and it would suck to have someone else pull a move like that on me out in the wild.

    I'm glad that (most) of the people who do datamining seem to have at least a small amount of ethics when it comes to that stuff. Not like in WoW, where the second a PTR gets datamined and posted people are blabbing about stuff everywhere with no regard for anything...they seem to go by the logic of "well I don't care about the story, so nobody else does either"

  10. #130
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Najk View Post
    I do remember
    member feeling safe?
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Is it? WoW is, surprisingly, but are the other games really doing that well? Maybe FFXIV.

    The way I took OP is that the games have subs to a greater or lesser degree but they're not really MMo RPGs if by that we mean 'large persistent worlds that the player discoverd via exploration' because people don't do that as much as they did 15-20 years ago.

    This isn't anyone's fault either. It's the nature of the beast. We're not going to NOT use YouTube, Wowhead and the like.

    NOTE: I would define a thriving genre as one that continually gets new entrants because people see opportunity to both do something new and to make money there. What's the last new MMO that is still around with, say, over 100k active players? ESO, maybe?
    The games are what they are regardless of whether players look at things on youtube etc.

    FFXIV it doing well and is on the tail end of its most successful expansion yet, though of course it's not pulling crazy peak WOW numbers from WOTLK etc.

  12. #132
    Vanilla world was designed with exploration in mind

    This hasn't been the case since MoP

  13. #133
    I think OP miss his only valid point, it's not the datamining that ruins the game but "the internet"
    We got to much information analazyed and checked to perfection that any sense of freedom and choice we get from the game is crushed under the data analyze, simulation, theorycrafter, forum, expert and go on...
    Think what happen if we remove....
    Site guide
    Site forum
    Datamining
    Theorycraft
    Addons
    Streaming

    And the only information u can get is from some ppl in your guild, or by the simple and oldest "try, error, fix, retry" method

  14. #134
    Herald of the Titans Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Yeah, it's not going to happen with WoW. The information was always available to us - it was just a question about how intensely and slavishly we'd pursue that knowledge.

    That being said, FFXIV's process did manage to preserve just a hint of that mystery - that thrill of booting up an MMO for the first time.
    It is these small details that allow multiple MMOs to stay alive. Maybe not to flourish, but to stay alive. Granted FFXIV does more than stay alive, but for instance I really like how campires work in TERA, how the free to play system and the mail system works in SWTOR.

  15. #135


    Seems like an MMO to me

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    I think OP miss his only valid point, it's not the datamining that ruins the game but "the internet"
    We got to much information analazyed and checked to perfection that any sense of freedom and choice we get from the game is crushed under the data analyze, simulation, theorycrafter, forum, expert and go on...
    Think what happen if we remove....
    Site guide
    Site forum
    Datamining
    Theorycraft
    Addons
    Streaming

    And the only information u can get is from some ppl in your guild, or by the simple and oldest "try, error, fix, retry" method
    The game would reduce itself down in complexity to meet the lowest common denominator. Similar to what would happen if Blizz banned DBM or WeakAuras
    My Collection
    - Bring back my damn zoom distance/MoP Portals - I read OP minimum, 1st page maximum-make wow alt friendly again -Please post constructively(topkek) -Kill myself

  16. #136
    I was excited to dive into this thread to talk about the inevitable takeover of mobile gaming, or maybe the tech-side of this will servers and sharding, or even the MMORPG business model of monthly subscriptions versus microtransactions. Instead we're talking about... datamining? You may be right about MMORPGs not having as large of a hold on this era, but leaks and datamines have no horse in this race.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    The games are what they are regardless of whether players look at things on youtube etc.

    FFXIV it doing well and is on the tail end of its most successful expansion yet, though of course it's not pulling crazy peak WOW numbers from WOTLK etc.
    Yeah, I think there's a false sense of "genre death" around MMORPGs. This is in part WoW's "fault".

    Why WoW came to be so popular:
    - Blizzard had a very good standing with its fans, so the hype was high.
    - The genre was niche, so not much competition.
    - The MMORPGs were subscription based, that limits the amount of other games your players play.
    - Blizzard way of making genres more accessible and popular outside of their niche.
    - WoW made critical mass with player population, everyone wanted to play because they knew anyone that played it (it reached 12mill players, when before it a MMORPG was successful if it had around 100k players).

    Why the competition flopped and the genre crashed:
    - They flooded the market with hundreds of clones just to jump in the car.
    - They though they could steal Blizzard players with subpar products.
    - They ignored the fact that people just can spent a set amount of cash and time on a hobby.


    It's the same thing that happened with MOBAs and LoL and it's happening with TV streaming services and Netflix.

  18. #138
    tbc was the best expansion and we will soon get it back, its gonna be amazing, we going home boys

  19. #139
    With increasing internet speeds for everyone, cloud gaming will be the solution to the datamining problem - if that is a problem for folks. All the information is in Blizzard's servers and players just stream the game. There will be no downloading all content to players' machines before content release; not even for expansions. The whole population and data-gatherers resort to sharing information organically: wikis with verification, chat platforms, streamers, etc. Current databases like MMOC and WoWHead will suffer a great scarcity of content, as all information will need to be crowdsourced. We'll all go back to screenshots if we want to see what a model looks instead of getting the actual 3D model on our browsers.

  20. #140
    WoW has always been a glorified lobby of instanced stuff. You just had to do a little more work to get to the instanced stuff.

    Yes, I do believe that an MMORPG almost entirely relying on instances for the bulk of it's content while ignoring anything of worth in it's actual world is bad form for the genre, and WoW is responsible for basically murdering the genre, but it's not like WoW used to be one way and is now another. It's always been heavily instance based.

    Far more harmful to the genre has been trying to think you need millions of subs to thrive and trying to superficially appeal to everyone. Also WoW's fault (but not maliciously. It's not like it's it's fault it got super popular by having a big name and appealing to the lowest common denominator and everyone tried to copy that). Now the genre is wrapped in so much baggage on all sorts of levels.. most people would probably just rather play a different, more fun genre that apes all the dopamine rushes that an MMORPG can give, without being an MMORPG, because almost every online game now has that sort of stuff. Levels, loot, experience, parties, etc. Most people aren't going to sit and deal with a game where they can't even fully attempt to play it without some other people allowing them to. That sort of baggage.


    Also, MMOs that aren't WoW or the Final Fantasy one are thriving because of whales. They'll keep thriving because of whales. What is dead are the huge budget ones, probably outside of those IPs, that take many years of development and tons of cash.

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