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  1. #41
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    Reforging is good.
    Agree to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    so you can upgrade it 12 times... again... so you can refarm it 6 months later... again.... and then upgrade it 12 times... again..
    Anyone who is doing this is doing it wrong. First up, if you've gotten KSM (requirement for upgrading to the current PTR cap of ilv 220) then you're already doing +15 which rewards end of dungeon gear at ilv 210. Upgrading from there to ilv 220 is about 3 upgrades. And yeah at 1k per upgrade for a 2H, that's 4 weeks of valor capping (PTR valor cap per week is 750 with a total cap of 1.5k so no hording Valor).

    True, when the new season comes out, players will likely refarm the item because we'll have anywhere from 20~30 ilv base increase but you'll be refarming items anyway to stay relevant. What's likely to be a pain is regrinding KSM each season for each character you want to be able to have the upgrade ability with limits removed.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Stabbyfists View Post
    Its very very simple. The issue alot of players, myself included, feel burnt out in order to play at our best and push content we have to do Mythic +, Rank in PVP and more in order to just push a few mythic bosses. Upping the drop rate on gear in raid is only a bandaid to a bigger problem that alot of gear for some classes just isn't viable in Raid. For example - Monks and Demon Hunters HAVE to PVP in order to get their BIS gear. While my idea is not a complete ideal solution, but it would be enough of a solution in order to allow these classes to not feel COMPLETELY forced into PVP / M+.

    ...
    Some devs already said in an interview that they want to bring back dynamic ilvl for PVP gear, so when entering PVP it scales up like 30ilvl (that way even honor gear would be better than mythic raid gear), add some bonuses to WQ gear that only works in shadowland zones and add some kind of bonus to raid gear so that it's the best for the raid. All gear is still good to use in other content but if you want to be competetive in PVP you want PVP gear, if you want to beat the mythic raid you want to have all raid gear and so on.

    I think giving gear from each source a bonus is a better solution to not force people into different content. Reforging doesn't really solve that problem and could potentially even make it worse, like making some PVP gear bis for other classes because you can reforge a certain amount of stats into something different.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You don't. This can only come from people that never simmed their character.

    Two top M+ players from raider io page:
    https://raider.io/mythic-plus-spec-r...r/marksmanship

    Their stat weight reports:
    https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...stSunDnEbnLiTK
    https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...ehXHUK9U6EQGZ3



    Any questions?



    It changes absolutely nothing. Item A is still better than item B, there is no power shift while using reforging. Relative power stays the same.

    Reforging without hit/exp cap is simply a gear tax, nothing else.
    Well done pointing out that Blizzard balances their games around the assumption that everyone has the best available gear, and that stats are weighted more equal for some classes. The last one hasn't always been, and isn't always, the case either. Most players never hit the soft caps that changes stat weighting vastly.
    Does the fact that most players aren't in the top 5% mean that these players doesn't suffer from shitty drops? No. No, it doesn't. Reforging might be a "tax" for some people, and those people can afford it, but for most of us it's a QoL improvement.
    And yes, In the age of borrowed powers and legendary effects and so on, the stats you want even changes based on the playstyle you prefer, and you might have to sim your own char for the best result, but you'll usually find a decent TL;CBA that'll tell you what stats you want.
    Last edited by Tronski; 2021-03-04 at 06:08 PM.

  4. #44
    If they really wanted to make gearing Fair every single boss would drop tokens and then you would use those tokens to buy whatever the hell you wanted any slot you needed to fill would be available for purchase just like in Guild Wars 2 or every other MMO besides wow. the problem is that doesn't keep you engaged in playing the game throughout the day or longer periods of time and that's what they like seeing because that's what the investors like seeing.
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  5. #45
    Gearing is fine, if anything Blizz needs to stop sucking dick and fix WQ items having a lower ilvl than intended, im 202, wth im getting 187 rewards?

  6. #46
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leyre View Post
    Gearing is fine, if anything Blizz needs to stop sucking dick and fix WQ items having a lower ilvl than intended, im 202, wth im getting 187 rewards?
    Odd at the current renown it should be 194~197 ilv. But generally speaking, WQ rewards have always been one of the lower steps in gear progression. This means that you get access to it early AND it caps out relatively low compared to rewards from other sources.


    Overall I think the bigger issue is that gearing seems fast from 150s to 200s but then slows to a craw from 200+. The nature of the GV and changes to loot make gearing up beyond 200+ very tedious and unfulfilling.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    Well done pointing out that Blizzard balances their games around the assumption that everyone has the best available gear, and that stats are weighted more equal for some classes. The last one hasn't always been, and isn't always, the case either. Most players never hit the soft caps that changes stat weighting vastly.
    Does the fact that most players aren't in the top 5% mean that these players doesn't suffer from shitty drops? No. No, it doesn't. Reforging might be a "tax" for some people, and those people can afford it, but for most of us it's a QoL improvement.
    And yes, In the age of borrowed powers and legendary effects and so on, the stats you want even changes based on the playstyle you prefer, and you might have to sim your own char for the best result, but you'll usually find a decent TL;CBA that'll tell you what stats you want.
    Wow. What an asinine rant about a clear and simple statement on why stat weights don't really matter, at all.

    Thanks, i guess?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Wow. What an asinine rant about a clear and simple statement on why stat weights don't really matter, at all.

    Thanks, i guess?
    If any opinion opposing yours is an asinine rant, then I don't know what to tell you.

    Go be offended about nothing somewhere else?

    Reforging would still be a QoL upgrade for most players.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    If any opinion opposing yours is an asinine rant, then I don't know what to tell you.

    Go be offended about nothing somewhere else?

    Reforging would still be a QoL upgrade for most players.
    Not "any" opinion, just your response above to a simple and clear explanation as to why stat weights are useless. But i understand why you'd get defensive, don't worry about it.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    What exactly does re-forging fix? It literally makes a piece that is not BiS, a little bitter. People still want their BiS stats.

    What does that even mean? "Oh no.. super pros got to do stuff to gear when they get it... boo hoo.." ?
    Because the argument that is played against reforging most the time is "it is just something you had to do whenever you got gear" which goes along with about 1-2 other things that often happen anyways. Or that you just plugged it into some addon and it just figured it out for you. Which pretty much is just simming your character minus that is totally RNG driven on one drops and at least reforging is something players can control and choose even if most of them would mindlessly toss it into an addon and just click the button. I mean.. if that is why we don't do things in this game then the whole thing needs to go back to the drawing board. Even the best players in the world simcraft like every single thing.. which boils down to.. addon.. click... click... ok thats best..

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Agree to disagree.



    Anyone who is doing this is doing it wrong. First up, if you've gotten KSM (requirement for upgrading to the current PTR cap of ilv 220) then you're already doing +15 which rewards end of dungeon gear at ilv 210. Upgrading from there to ilv 220 is about 3 upgrades. And yeah at 1k per upgrade for a 2H, that's 4 weeks of valor capping (PTR valor cap per week is 750 with a total cap of 1.5k so no hording Valor).

    True, when the new season comes out, players will likely refarm the item because we'll have anywhere from 20~30 ilv base increase but you'll be refarming items anyway to stay relevant. What's likely to be a pain is regrinding KSM each season for each character you want to be able to have the upgrade ability with limits removed.
    Just because you've got KSM and you're doing 15s doesn't mean you'll just get whatever baseline 210 it is that you want.

    I've got 'lucky' and got my Hakkar trinket in 207 in week 2 or 3 of m+ - I've yet to even just see it drop on 210. My friend who's also been tanking and who's also got KSM since like week 3 has yet to get the damn item to begin with. You're still gonna farm for months to get a specific item, and you'll simply not have the luxury to be like *oh, this is only ilvl 200, this isn't worth upgrading, I'll just farm the 210 version and save a couple VP*. A Shadow Priest pal of mine needed like a solid 26 Theater of Pain runs to see the trinket drop for the first time (see it, not get it mind you, he was lucky enough to get it traded though).

    If you get your BiS trinket you might as well just upgrade it, regardless of what ilvl it has. Not doing so because you could aaalways be getting that max ilvl version... fuck, you might as well be waiting to get it from the chest in 226 then.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    Well this thread will be filled with "im good, you suck, not happy? leave! thanks for the blog post"

    But I was always a fan of reforging. It's a big why not. Oh no.. super pros got to do stuff to gear when they get it... boo hoo..

    I never understood why they stripped customization away like gem slots in gear baseline and reforging.
    100% agree. I miss gem bonuses, I miss reforging. I miss enchants for every slot. Reforging made an ilvl upgrade with bad secondary stats feel better. It made it so you could have PERFECT haste caps on dot classes.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    HELL NO

    Reforging is the worse thing ever. First it was required because when hit/expertise was in the game, it was a HUGE throughput loss if you weren't capped.

    This mandated players do all sort of spreadsheet calculations (or just used Ask Mr. Robot) to solve the equation of how do I get to Hit/Exp cap so I could then play the game.

    Beyond that reforging also can caused other issues. Secondary stat stacking breaks the game as illustrated at the end of BFA with the corruptions that provided flat % secondary increases at near zero downside (provided you had enough corruption resistance or could handle the corruption mechanics). Seeing how crazy secondary stat stacking can be, we finally get diminishing returns for secondary stats in Shadowlands.

    No reforging should remain dead like Titanforging.
    Hit and Expertise are no longer a thing. And Players already do a spreadsheet to find out their best stats. Now that we only got 4 Secondary stats, its much easier to figure out. For example. a Demon Hunter wants Haste and Versatility. Well this piece he got has Haste and Mastery on it, well now he can reforge half that mastery away into Versatility and perform better at his job.

    I even mentioned in my original post that the problem with Reforging was the fact it was only really used to hit Expertise and Hit caps. With them being removed thats not an issue anymore. Instead it would help make the loot that DOES drop perform better.

    A good example - In Castle Nathria on my Demon Hunter, I got 226 Crit Mastery legs on my Demon Hunter. It was my highest item level piece of loot, but it would have been a dps downgrade from my Haste Versatility 220 pants I was wearing. I wanted to trade it to our Rogue but because it was my highest ilvl piece of loot, it was instead put in my bank so I have access to it so I can trade the NEXT piece of loot that drops. However if there was Reforging, I could have reforged that 94 Mastery into something useful like Haste or Versatility and that might of made it an upgrade.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Stabbyfists View Post
    Hit and Expertise are no longer a thing. And Players already do a spreadsheet to find out their best stats. Now that we only got 4 Secondary stats, its much easier to figure out. For example. a Demon Hunter wants Haste and Versatility. Well this piece he got has Haste and Mastery on it, well now he can reforge half that mastery away into Versatility and perform better at his job.

    I even mentioned in my original post that the problem with Reforging was the fact it was only really used to hit Expertise and Hit caps. With them being removed thats not an issue anymore. Instead it would help make the loot that DOES drop perform better.

    A good example - In Castle Nathria on my Demon Hunter, I got 226 Crit Mastery legs on my Demon Hunter. It was my highest item level piece of loot, but it would have been a dps downgrade from my Haste Versatility 220 pants I was wearing. I wanted to trade it to our Rogue but because it was my highest ilvl piece of loot, it was instead put in my bank so I have access to it so I can trade the NEXT piece of loot that drops. However if there was Reforging, I could have reforged that 94 Mastery into something useful like Haste or Versatility and that might of made it an upgrade.
    I feel your example is more a problem with trade restrictions of PL than reforging.

  15. #55
    Epic! Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    Just because you've got KSM and you're doing 15s doesn't mean you'll just get whatever baseline 210 it is that you want.

    I've got 'lucky' and got my Hakkar trinket in 207 in week 2 or 3 of m+ - I've yet to even just see it drop on 210. My friend who's also been tanking and who's also got KSM since like week 3 has yet to get the damn item to begin with. You're still gonna farm for months to get a specific item, and you'll simply not have the luxury to be like *oh, this is only ilvl 200, this isn't worth upgrading, I'll just farm the 210 version and save a couple VP*. A Shadow Priest pal of mine needed like a solid 26 Theater of Pain runs to see the trinket drop for the first time (see it, not get it mind you, he was lucky enough to get it traded though).

    If you get your BiS trinket you might as well just upgrade it, regardless of what ilvl it has. Not doing so because you could aaalways be getting that max ilvl version... fuck, you might as well be waiting to get it from the chest in 226 then.

    Except you're forgetting that ONLY items that drop after 9.0.5 can be upgraded via Valor. So if you got your BiS trinket/weapon/gear but at a lower level... guess what, you're not going to be able to upgrade that item. You need to re-farm until it drops.

    Moreover, why after achieving KSM, why would that player run M+2 (which would give you rank 1 items) to upgrade? Even if you weren't running +15 after KSM, and say you're running +12~+14 the total amount of upgrades is still LOWER than upgrading something from rank 1 all the way to rank 12.
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  16. #56
    So you just add another step while simming your gear? Reforging was never about choice or preference. You would only widen the gap between absolute min/maxers and people who don't.

  17. #57
    Dreadlord Kyux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    The majority of people arent complaining that their 9th 226 piece doesnt have haste on it.
    They are complaining that it took 17 dungeons to replace their first 200 piece.


    All this 'fixes' is making the top 10% even stronger than the rest.
    I think this hits the nail on the head. While I am happy with current loot drops I totally accept others aren't. I don't think reforging would help either. It doesn't increase the amount of loot you get and that's the issue. It arguably makes loot more interesting when you get it, but that isn't the gripe.

    Secondly, while reforging sounds attractive and tbh I think I'd be happy with it, in reality I do think it would result in another mandatory thing to do. You would feel obligated to reforge it to the optimal stats every time. That's why it was removed in the first place.

    So, it sounds good on paper but I don't think it really resolves the issue.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    Well done pointing out that Blizzard balances their games around the assumption that everyone has the best available gear, and that stats are weighted more equal for some classes. The last one hasn't always been, and isn't always, the case either. Most players never hit the soft caps that changes stat weighting vastly.
    Does the fact that most players aren't in the top 5% mean that these players doesn't suffer from shitty drops? No. No, it doesn't. Reforging might be a "tax" for some people, and those people can afford it, but for most of us it's a QoL improvement.
    And yes, In the age of borrowed powers and legendary effects and so on, the stats you want even changes based on the playstyle you prefer, and you might have to sim your own char for the best result, but you'll usually find a decent TL;CBA that'll tell you what stats you want.
    That is again, false. You don't have to hit softcaps to change your stat weight priority. It all depends on your class, spec, gear, leggo and talent choice.

    This was present in previous expansions as well, not just at the higher end of gear but to know that, you would have to play more than one class and sim it frequently while gearing up and fiddling around with gear.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    That is again, false. You don't have to hit softcaps to change your stat weight priority. It all depends on your class, spec, gear, leggo and talent choice.

    This was present in previous expansions as well, not just at the higher end of gear but to know that, you would have to play more than one class and sim it frequently while gearing up and fiddling around with gear.
    WoW will never be so balanced that all classes will have equal weighting for all secondary stats. Some stats will always be better until you hit the soft caps. If Legendary X makes haste stronger, and crit is preferred for legendary Y, it still doesn't mean that the class has perfectly balanced secondary stats. You still want more haste to get stronk if you use legendary X.

    I like how you present "fiddling around with gear" as an alternative solution to just let us suffer less if the one item you get that week has the wrong stats for you, when drop drought is the reason we want reforging back in the first place.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    WoW will never be so balanced that all classes will have equal weighting for all secondary stats. Some stats will always be better until you hit the soft caps. If Legendary X makes haste stronger, and crit is preferred for legendary Y, it still doesn't mean that the class has perfectly balanced secondary stats. You still want more haste to get stronk if you use legendary X.

    I like how you present "fiddling around with gear" as an alternative solution to just let us suffer less if the one item you get that week has the wrong stats for you, when drop drought is the reason we want reforging back in the first place.
    Nobody said anything about all classes having same weighting.

    Single spec can differ depending on your gear/talent choice or even sim settings.

    So your original statement that "you know your best stats because someone else simmed it" is simply wrong.
    It MAY be the case in some particular spec/class but it's exception, rather than rule.

    You are not "suffering less" with reforging, nothing is changing. You are not getting more powerful. You are just paying tax each time you get new item.

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