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  1. #81
    I think pretty much everything mentioned here contributes to it to one degree or another. I think it's mostly time, times change, people/we change.

  2. #82
    Banned Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfacin9 View Post
    Nothing can recreate that feeling any more.
    Oh yes, they certainly can. Levelling through Tiragarde Sound or Drustvar had a lot of the "old WoW" feeling, which is all the more interesting considering that it came in an expansion that wasn't stellar by any means. But devs nailed at least that bit just fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Butt Witch View Post
    Elite mobs were a good idea early game, made people team up and socialize. Unfortunately, people just started skipping the hard quests, couldn't find people to group up with, and then the elite quests became unused content, so Blizzard nerfed them so people would actually do them.
    Elite quests were always a dumb idea, because if you happen to play at unconventional times or in a low pop server, you are just SoL. I'm more than glad they did away with those, but the Cataclysm revamp went waaaaaay too far in nerfing the open world.

  3. #83
    I've always had a soft spot for the Classic Human, Dwarf, and Undead starting zones, and I suppose most of the Eastern Kingdoms. For some reason, it's just those that stuck with me the most. Every new expac, all the new areas never really do it for me, compared to those areas.

    When I started TBC content, I immediately felt some disappointment for the leveling zones there. I wonder if it's just me preferring the areas that seem familiar to what I want/expect from a fantasy adventure. Forest, wilderness, ruins, with a bit of monsters roaming around. If it's too alien and hostile looking, then I feel a bit detached and not immersed in it. I suppose the old Undead areas tiptoed that line for me, but it did it just right for me. It was a bit creepy looking but still oddly comfortable and pretty place to be in.

  4. #84
    I have two categories for the zones that I can remember offhand right now:

    Desolate - the threatening feeling is the feeling of being away from civilization

    Silithus pre war effort - pretty sure it's nothing but a road to the AQ gates
    Azshara pre cata - amazing looking zone that really makes you feel like you're out in the sticks

    Hostile - Just being there gives off the feeling everything it out there to get you

    Blades edge
    Drustvar - deep in the heart of that zone everything wanted you dead lol
    Felwood - This could go in either category but the art team did a great job setting up the vibe of that zone

  5. #85
    I am Murloc! Atrea's Avatar
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    In fairness, the "far from home" zone for Shadowlands, the one where there aren't big "GO HERE FOR LOOT AND EXP" signs everywhere, is The Maw.

    I realize it's not everybody's favourite place, but realize that the Eastern Plaguelands had about as much content (possibly less), and The Maw is being expanded upon.
    It isn't the same pattern of "onioning" (so to speak) but it's the same general premise.

    Whether or not The Maw is a compelling successor to the Eastern Plaguelands is another discussion altogether. I just felt it was important to point out that Shadowlands DOES have a zone like this.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    The playerbase is optimised to shit. The only way you can stop them looking for every advantage they have over everyone else is...

    And i know this is gonna hurt...

    ...

    Make the game much easier.

    Now dont get me wrong, im not necessarily advocating this, just stating how you might go about 'destroying the meta'. If I wanted to destroy the meta, id probably just do the following: scythe off mythic raiding into its own vanity/flex leaderboard system. The end of the game progression would be heroic. Mythic raiding would be the equivalent of +16-+23 keys. I'd give them all a title, some iconic cosmetic weapon/mount affix, some cool pets, and maybe some mogs. I'd even give them a leaderboard which id make accessible through the calendar or something (so no player in game could escape from). I'd also give them all the mythic raiding they could ever dream of with as many mythic plus affixes, timers, damage increases, and challenge modes (good job on your mythic zero, now do it with 17 people... now lets do it with a timer, now lets have storming, now lets have tyrann... i mean er... nah, screw it, lets have tyrannical!). The race to world first will never end for them! What joy they will have!... in their semi-caged mini game mostly away from the general playerbase (cosmetics, titles, etc, not withstanding). Actually, id make those rewards seasonal like PVP and give them an honor system style pve rating (top 3 - 2800, top 10 - 2400, top 100 - 2100, top 200 - 2000, top 500 - 1800, top 1000 - 1500). Yeah, thats what id do. No extra drops from the heroic loot table. Just raiding to their hearts content.

    Of course they get a special (and super awesome) mount for finishing above 2100. Im not a monster! But as a player, you BEAT THE GAME at ahead of the curve, everything else is 'dressing'.
    You also beat mythic plus at plus 15... you can go as high as you dream, but youre done at plus 15. Oh, and the first 5 levels are now on LFD. And im going to make them MUCH easier. Because what the hell is the point of a skill curve if you dont utilise it. As a token of conciliation though, you can only queue for the exact key level you have on LFD (you can still apply for any group you like on LFG and any dungeon you like - though of course can only list your own key for that dungeon on LFG), and only players WITH that key can join you. And if you mess up, you all get dumped down a rank.

    Okay... you can queue with ANYONE with a +4 key, rng decides on which of the dungeons your key is now bound to (temporarily until the keystone slot is activated), and if you leave before the dungeon finishes, you are dropped a level (no cheesing for the right group with the right rng key - though im sure there'll be an exploit somewhere the playerbase would figure out). Anyways, im overthinking it. Point is, you are in LFD, you cannot jump up a key level without completing the dungeon (except through LFG). If you bail because everyone sucks, your key downranks (now you can only apply on lfd to rank 3), and if you want to boost it, well, you're either doing it through the tortuous LFD way (1 rank upon completion), or making and vetting your own group in LFG. At no point can you leapfrog through LFD. Your key determines what m+ level you can do. You cant just blag your way into a +9 with your +2 key. Thats LFG (which remains perfectly in tact and has NO CHANGES even in the 0 to 5 range - lfd is just an alternative option with MORE punishments (all your keys are on the line)).

    Now lets pop over to pvp. I have ALWAYS loved the idea of RBGs. Im a team player. I make calls. I sit at flags! I do all the stuff no one else wants to do. But i hate discord/teamspeak/vent. I just like chat? I just wanna play some RBGs and get a rating, without having to organise myself into a premade (inc vetting/judgement), yeah? You know... kinda how the world worked back in 2006? Now i get my rating would be shot to fuck by this, but i reckons theres plenty of folks out there who'd want to do the same... just let me group for this with auto queue. I know, i know, its complicated and they'd need to really busily work on solo queue or something to make it happen... but just let my rag tag crew of anti social players (whom ive just now met) get through this RBG without being GY camped (bonus, why GY camp us in 2021? Honor is irrelevant in RBGs, all that matters is conquest and ranks. This is progress!). If you played vanilla at any level you were GY camped at some point by a premade (well, if you were alliance). The only difference now is that they'll three cap us in 5 minutes instead of farming us for honor on top of it. As my rank slides, i literally help my team mates out through our collective match making rank! At some point im going to have not only the experience in these BGs, but also the pride to say NO MORE!!! (and blast it on the wall with a dead daleks eye stalk), and just join a premade RBG group (with extra conquest gear making me more useful).

    So anyways, thats how im breaki... i mean, er making the game less meta. Progression dies (in terms of power) at Heroic raiding/Mythic +15. Mythic 1-5 are also on LFD. RBGs are solo queued out the whazoo and on group finder if youre a masochist and just want a rating in pvp... ANY rating (RBGs and arena are on group finder (if you're insane)). LFR... i kinda want to boot. I dont think it fulfils any purpose in game. Its too challenging to be truly touristy, and too easy to be a bridge. Lets turn it into a scenario!

    Two raid tiers. Normal can be buffed, heroic can be buffed, but not current mythic buffed (just... 'appropriately difficult' for the moderately hardcore leaning player). Mythic gets put in its own little play pen universe. Mythic+ 10-15 is EXPONENTIAL. Its the literal cliff face of dungeon progression (1-4 is basically a very slight hike, whilst 5-9 is a proper korean ajjuma sunday hike). 10 to 15 for the mountain climbers (and the difference between 10-15 in terms of gear is SMALLER (get this, geniuses!) than 1-5 v 6-10. As we climb the mountain, the rewards DECREASE!!! because the game should cap out at the average player (10). But we need to give the 11-15 something, so have another 5 ilvls. You'll note, no one actually complains that 16-infinity gives you NADA. And they dont because progression shuts down at some arbitrary number... its 15? Why? Who knows! Why not make it ten? Who knows!

    So thats how you break the meta. You make the game MUCH EASIER to complete. Then you give players all the flex bs they could ever want on top of it.
    Dude! Are you me? The changes that you are suggesting are those that i have in my mind for years, but i was always too bored to write them down ^^.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Make the game much easier
    I like some of your ideas, but not all. What you said about mythic raiding is something I would be happy about. Since personally I dislike it, but feel compelled to do, since current 'only hc' guilds are somewhat below my skill level and its not fun to progress through the whole tier when people fail on the simplest of mechanics. Doing semi-casual mythic raiding, I at least play with people at my skill level. But for that to work, if you really want to make HC THE endgame - you gotta make it last longer than 2-3 weeks. I liked the TOGC and ICC difficulty versions, where 25m heroic was not too hard, where you could reclear and progress 1-2 bosses every week. I know that most of CN mythic bosses aren't hard and I've killed most of them, but somehow it still feels different to the way ICC hc worked (or may be its nostalgia talking).

    M+ does end at +15, you get nothing beyond useless rio score above that. But its does feel like the +2-7 range is pretty much dead. Could really do away with squishing everything so that +15 becomes +10 and new affixes are added at +3, +5, +8.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Oh yes, they certainly can. Levelling through Tiragarde Sound or Drustvar had a lot of the "old WoW" feeling, which is all the more interesting considering that it came in an expansion that wasn't stellar by any means. But devs nailed at least that bit just fine.
    Guess its subjective. I liked Drustvar the most of the BfA zones, but it was just a new zone with an interesing story and aesthetic. Tiragarde I didn't like, as I despise anything pirate-related in wow, its just tasteless. But overall BfA did well with its zones and questing experience. But I just fail to see how these zones gave the 'old WoW' feeling. Each zone followed a single storyline each with lots of scripted NPC dialogues - none of that existed in 'old WoW', not to this extent at least. There may have been a sense of danger - I did Drustvar during pre-patch as a rogue and the higher level I got the weaker I was compared to the mobs, so I had to be really careful and pull 1 by 1 like in the old days, but that's about it.

  8. #88
    Yeah i do agree.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Lighter View Post

    If these are supposed to act as nerfs over time why is it that once they are all unlocked you still need a rather ridged comp to clear mythic raiding? Even with max renowned, full conduits, gem slots, and max level legendaries you can't really carry more then one or two off meta specs and expect to complete the encounter.
    Being bad at the off-meta spec is not the same as not being able to clear a raid if you have more than two of them lol, I mean with statement like that you already show what you understand about the game. If you are maxed out on renown + conduits + gems + 220-226ilvl + nerfs and still can't raid in "off-meta" raids, trust me, it's not the "lack of true nerfs".

    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Lighter View Post
    It feels like beating harder and harder content to gear up and advance was slowly replaced with a spread sheet that contained a list of chores (grind torghast, grind the maw, etc) what makes it worse is that these chores offer no real difficulty or challenge but are the definition of busy work.

    It doesn't feel heroic to murder "elites" that can barely fight back in the maw. I only know of 2(3?) that can actually overpower a player who knows what they are doing and one is lodged so deep in the beast warrens i don't think ive ever seen players around him and the other is on a very long respawn timer.
    Well, if there is nothing to do there is nothing to do. What will you do when you have full badge gear in tbc/wotlk? Is there something what you can't do anymore but you could do back in the day?

    I play the same game as I played in TBC. Raid and do HC dungeon now has become Raid and do M+ dungeon. At least in Legion we had AP to grind.
    Game is the same in that regard. I would like to know how many CE players actually grind maw every day. Because I know one or two for sure, but most of them don't even care. Especially now when you get conduits from doing hard content rather than grinding the maw.

    I don't understand the sentiment about elites either. Old Elites were doing one spellcast and just hit like a truck. There was nothing impressive about that. A well geared person could kill elites in Vanilla and well geared person can kill elites in Shadowlands. I would love to see you kill those 600k rare elites in the maw on your 200ilvl mage. And if you manage - trust me, not because it is easy, but because you are good.

    Also at the same time you are talking about elites not fighting back but then you want stronger mobs so you want off-meta classes being even in a worse position?

  10. #90
    A sense of adventure gets in the way of your instanced content. We should always be go go go

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrea View Post
    In fairness, the "far from home" zone for Shadowlands, the one where there aren't big "GO HERE FOR LOOT AND EXP" signs everywhere, is The Maw.

    I realize it's not everybody's favourite place, but realize that the Eastern Plaguelands had about as much content (possibly less), and The Maw is being expanded upon.
    It isn't the same pattern of "onioning" (so to speak) but it's the same general premise.

    Whether or not The Maw is a compelling successor to the Eastern Plaguelands is another discussion altogether. I just felt it was important to point out that Shadowlands DOES have a zone like this.
    The issue is not necessarily the content itself. The issue is the systems surrounding it. COULD the maw be a zone that gives a feeling of danger and dread and isolation? Yes. However, you can practically melt most enemies there without breaking a sweat and escape is almost always a couple of clicks away. Those aren't really problems with the content, although there is an issue with too much density ruining any feeling of isolation.

    Compare this to Eastern Plaguelands in Classic. Most people do not have a ready escape unless their hearthstone is good to go, and in many cass that could mean hearthing *very* far away. There are extremely hard hitting and dangerous mobs all over the place. The lack of density means it feels isolated and like a place people were driven out of.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    A sense of adventure gets in the way of your instanced content. We should always be go go go
    Bingo. The drive to make the game an instanced lobby is the problem.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    BIG SNIP

    Do you understand that it won't solve anything? You will have same meta for HC raiding. You will have same meta for doing 15s. BTW +15 is literally where it ends but for some reason players are always complaining about not getting into m+ at +12. God, look at classic. It's a piss easy game with the WBs but meta is still real.
    Also there was no chill in random bgs chat back in 2006, there won't be any chill in rated bgs chat either. Might as well have auto-ignore addon.

    I mean some of your suggestions could make it to the game but it still does not solve any problem.

  13. #93
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    i think u hit nail in coffin here, i love ur post
    yes SL doesn't have that structure, every zone is heavy with its covenant, yeah not friendly, but u don't feel danger either
    you don't need heavy zones, EPL for example after cata revamp still hostile, with tiny settlements for flying masters (or just give us flying and no need for fly masters in first place)
    The only zone that fits getting more serious/dangerous scheme i'd say is necrolords one, at least u get sense it is u vs everyone else, revendreth u feel the rebel succeeded in their mission after campaign ends, because the 'big bad' just hides as soon quests are over (which is crap idea since he has control, it is almost like giving u revendreth on silver plate), night fae specially is too peaceful to be the '3rd' dangerous zone, should been 1st, and then we jump to maw, the most hostile zone probably in wow history, alongside Icecrown (if ppl forgot, u can't even afk flying in icecrown, u had to logout if u want to feel safe)
    BUT
    I don't think that's as big deal as u think it is, since questing is just done while lvling that's all, and after 1st toon done u already feel bored and even pissed on ur 2nd or 3rd toon lvling, exploration is great for 1st time, they screwed it (a little) in SL but that's it, just 1st time, the important is the long-term end-game content, and while SL has good end-game content (imo), it still isn't good enough to stay what seems will be 6 months at least, something never happened in wow history as far i recall (heck i remember Legion had 1st patch announced before even 1 month passed in Legion, and was released before i even got good gear on my main)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrea View Post
    In fairness, the "far from home" zone for Shadowlands, the one where there aren't big "GO HERE FOR LOOT AND EXP" signs everywhere, is The Maw.

    I realize it's not everybody's favourite place, but realize that the Eastern Plaguelands had about as much content (possibly less), and The Maw is being expanded upon.
    It isn't the same pattern of "onioning" (so to speak) but it's the same general premise.

    Whether or not The Maw is a compelling successor to the Eastern Plaguelands is another discussion altogether. I just felt it was important to point out that Shadowlands DOES have a zone like this.
    that's extremely unfair towards EPL
    EPL has rich lore, one of most memorable quests in entire wow history is the ghost children doll from EPL pre-cata era
    EPL has very strong presence since wc3, we wanted to go there, explore it and see it, Stratholme is still until now a hot topic, and Stratholme purge was done 20 years ago
    Maw on other hand has joke of quests, very bleak to no atmosphere, the architecture is very minimal, nothing like EPL where u find plague presence everywhere, maw u find almost same core enemy everywhere (except the river which was good idea), the maw need at least twice diverse enemies and background structure, i don't know why the maw is eternal torture for mobs i can easily right click (at least 1v1) except the rare few elites in corner of map, this zone is supposed to be hell itself, yet i see u can easily get in and get out and be done with it
    TLDR: EPL had tons of pre-built lore and engagement before we even set foot in it, while the maw (and to lesser extent, entire SL concept) had none in wow
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Being bad at the off-meta spec is not the same as not being able to clear a raid if you have more than two of them lol, I mean with statement like that you already show what you understand about the game. If you are maxed out on renown + conduits + gems + 220-226ilvl + nerfs and still can't raid in "off-meta" raids, trust me, it's not the "lack of true nerfs".



    Well, if there is nothing to do there is nothing to do. What will you do when you have full badge gear in tbc/wotlk? Is there something what you can't do anymore but you could do back in the day?

    I play the same game as I played in TBC. Raid and do HC dungeon now has become Raid and do M+ dungeon. At least in Legion we had AP to grind.
    Game is the same in that regard. I would like to know how many CE players actually grind maw every day. Because I know one or two for sure, but most of them don't even care. Especially now when you get conduits from doing hard content rather than grinding the maw.

    I don't understand the sentiment about elites either. Old Elites were doing one spellcast and just hit like a truck. There was nothing impressive about that. A well geared person could kill elites in Vanilla and well geared person can kill elites in Shadowlands. I would love to see you kill those 600k rare elites in the maw on your 200ilvl mage. And if you manage - trust me, not because it is easy, but because you are good.

    Also at the same time you are talking about elites not fighting back but then you want stronger mobs so you want off-meta classes being even in a worse position?
    Can you produce logs that show the last boss dying with more then 2 off meta specs currently? What about 5?

    This reeks of the " you don't need corruption posts I saw around the last patch of bfa yet when questioned they were never able to produce logs that hit dps checks.

    The rest of your post isn't very sensible either you make so many leap of logics that I am not really sure where to start... look its alright to not get how end game works but when you try to give feedback on knowledge you think you absorbed by watching a stream its going to show.

    Yes. You can carry a few off meta specs depending on how weak they are through a raid but you can't take that many. After two it becomes equivalent to taking a carry. My point was that without extreme class stacking the grind systems act as a base level to complete the content rather then the nerf system they are set out as. I've been raiding end game since tbc and when I had time for the alt shuffle game in mop I was able to do it at the world top ten level.

    Tuning isn't as forgiving as you make it out to be.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Lighter View Post
    Can you produce logs that show the last boss dying with more then 2 off meta specs currently? What about 5?

    This reeks of the " you don't need corruption posts I saw around the last patch of bfa yet when questioned they were never able to produce logs that hit dps checks.

    The rest of your post isn't very sensible either you make so many leap of logics that I am not really sure where to start... look its alright to not get how end game works but when you try to give feedback on knowledge you think you absorbed by watching a stream its going to show.

    Yes. You can carry a few off meta specs depending on how weak they are through a raid but you can't take that many. After two it becomes equivalent to taking a carry. My point was that without extreme class stacking the grind systems act as a base level to complete the content rather then the nerf system they are set out as. I've been raiding end game since tbc and when I had time for the alt shuffle game in mop I was able to do it at the world top ten level.

    Tuning isn't as forgiving as you make it out to be.
    So you want max level difficulty to be easy instead of stopping where it is too hard for you or getting better? That will only create a Legendary difficulty for the good players and you will come back with the same argument.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    So you want max level difficulty to be easy instead of stopping where it is too hard for you or getting better? That will only create a Legendary difficulty for the good players and you will come back with the same argument.
    I mean. I am pointing out that the grind mechanics effetely only get you to the baseline... the encounters are tuned around you have the powers making them rather pointless as a gradual nerf.

    I feel like your trying to have a different argument.

  17. #97
    Nailed it.

    That's why I can pretty much remember the slightest details about WOW classic, zones like the Barrens, Ashenvale, Tanaris, STV etc. Believable zones.
    Nowadays every zone is over the top magic and destruction, dragons and world bosses everywhere.

  18. #98
    Pit Lord Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    I think it's because we've... pretty much explored all of Azeroth. I can totally see why people miss it though. I'm a very adventorius woman (why do think I play video games that have RPG elements? ;p) and I really enjoy running around in a vast world, killing things and collecting cool items. We need more planets to explore. Azeroth and Draenor can't be the only planets out there, right?

    Another day, another Deal....

  19. #99
    Herald of the Titans Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    I think it's because we've... pretty much explored all of Azeroth. I can totally see why people miss it though. I'm a very adventorius woman (why do think I play video games that have RPG elements? ;p) and I really enjoy running around in a vast world, killing things and collecting cool items. We need more planets to explore. Azeroth and Draenor can't be the only planets out there, right?
    Or another revamp- Time Skip+ zone revamp for 10.0. That could give them time to come up with anothe planet. Preferrably a planet sized one. Provided there is enough change of course.

  20. #100
    It disappeared when the majority of the playerbase started visiting sites like WoWhead or MMO-champion. Everything gets datamined, so you will never be surprised by anything again. If there was no datamining, this experience would come back.

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