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  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Go do a judo move on an elephant, endus. tell us how it went after.
    In this case, man against elephant, technique is being able to imagine and construct a high caliber rifle that will split the elephant's head in two, when shot.

    Something i am sure elephants, with their sheer strength and weight, cannot even fathom.
    /spit@Blizzard

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Punches hit different when you can actually feel them.
    The whole point of his character is that he remembers everything that he did while he was the Winter Soldier. You can easily argue that he's more inclined to pull his punches now that he's not just a faceless killing machine, but even while programmed by Hydra, he wasn't a robot. As evidenced by the fact that Steve was able to reach him in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Notice has Sam may be the physcially weakest of all the fighters on the show but he doesn't get his ass kicked left and right and has the most success against the Flagsmashers.
    Street brawlers (which is essentially what the Flagsmashers are, aren't going to be well-versed in dealing with someone with a rocket strapped to his back and the ability to deploy extra limbs at will. Bucky is on par with Steve when it comes to close-quarters combat, and it took assistance from a computer (and all the tricks built into his suit) for Tony to get the better of him...something Sam doesn't have access to.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Honestly I don't understand all that. If Dora Milaje are capable of dealing with super soldiers 1v1 with no problem, then what's exactly the point of super soldiers ? That means that any single trained fighter with vibranium equipment is capable of doing the same feats as Captain, Black Panther and Winter Soldier. Then I don't even see the point of the Wakanda needing a Black Panther to begin with.

    One Dora Milaje should be a no match for a super soldier, period. And if that's the Vibranium stuff they wield that make such a difference, then Infinity War's Wakanda's battle would have ended within minutes.

    Wakanda's aspects are so overpowered in the MCU that it's becoming sickening. Next thing you know is Shuri going 1v1 against Strange and winning fingers in the nose
    I didn't say 1 would beat Bucky. I said he'd probably have trouble with 3.

    And being a Super Soldier doesn't necessarily make you a skilled fighter. Stats aren't everything. Take Civil War for example. Spider-Man has far better Stats than Steve Rogers...but Steve is a much more skilled fighter than Peter. Iron Man is vastly more powerful than Steve and Bucky...but the combination of the two of them overwhelms him because they're skilled fighters that work well together.

    John Walker, without the Super Soldier Serum, is supposed to be the creme de la creme of the America Military... yet he got taken to school by a Dora Milaje. Like completely humiliated.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Go do a judo move on an elephant, endus. tell us how it went after.
    That's a bad comparison...since an elephant and a human aren't of comparable sizes. Super Soldiers are strong...but they are still human sized opponents. There's no reason why a judo move wouldn't be just as effective against a super soldier as it is on anyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    And being a Super Soldier doesn't necessarily make you a skilled fighter.
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Bucky is the 'strongest character on this show, Bucky and Kali are the 'strongest' characters but not the best fighters. I would actually put Sam before Bucky when it comes to fighting skills, and the Wakadans are obviously a league above everyone. A fight isn't just about who can throw the hardest blow, but how well you can actually counter and manipulate your opponent. It's why the Hulk is stronger than just about everyone but can still be bested. The Wakandans kicked everyone's ass not because they were the strongest but because they were the best combatants.

    All the Super Soldier serum does for someone who isn't good at fighting is make a lucky blow devastating, assuming they can land a lucky blow against a smart opponent.
    Bucky was totally not the best assassin of Hydra for 60 years, he's just a random guy who happened to be boosted for a few minutes.

    I agree that Kali is probably just that, strong. But Bucky was a super soldier, dedicated to take out priority targets and put chaos everywhere, all that in the hands of Hydra during a whole 60 years, who probably trained him in fighting for a few years. He's not your everyday random bobby who was boosted and whose only feature is to hit as hard as he's stupid. He was literally the best assassin in the world.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Bucky was totally not the best assassin of Hydra for 60 years, he's just a random guy who happened to be boosted for a few minutes.
    No one has said that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  6. #446
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Bucky was totally not the best assassin of Hydra for 60 years, he's just a random guy who happened to be boosted for a few minutes.

    I agree that Kali is probably just that, strong. But Bucky was a super soldier, dedicated to take out priority targets and put chaos everywhere, all that in the hands of Hydra during a whole 60 years, who probably trained him in fighting for a few years. He's not your everyday random bobby who was boosted and whose only feature is to hit as hard as he's stupid. He was literally the best assassin in the world.
    The Winter Soldier was the best assassin. The Winter Soldier soldier experienced no pain, had no emotion, he simply followed orders. Bucky is a different person who was forced to live out the life of the Winter Soldier. Bucky has his own mind, his own motivations, his own will. Bucky also can't shake all the things that come with being a human that the Winter Soldier could. Honestly that what makes Bucky (and Steve) compelling characters to me. Super Soldiers who must weigh humanity with their actions. Being a numb soldier who is basically an cyborg is a lot different than being a man of the same physical capabilities but also their own man.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    The whole point of his character is that he remembers everything that he did while he was the Winter Soldier. You can easily argue that he's more inclined to pull his punches now that he's not just a faceless killing machine, but even while programmed by Hydra, he wasn't a robot. As evidenced by the fact that Steve was able to reach him in the first place.


    Street brawlers (which is essentially what the Flagsmashers are, aren't going to be well-versed in dealing with someone with a rocket strapped to his back and the ability to deploy extra limbs at will. Bucky is on par with Steve when it comes to close-quarters combat, and it took assistance from a computer (and all the tricks built into his suit) for Tony to get the better of him...something Sam doesn't have access to.
    We have to get this out first. Bucky might have been aware of the Winter Soldier's actions but he was nothing more than a passive observer occupying the same space. Buck and the Winter Soldier might as well be two different people occupying the same body - one of the reasons why Bucky isn't completely held accountable for the actions of the Winter Soldier.

    Bucky has the 'potential to be on par with Steve but he is no Steve. Bucky knows this and acknowledges it. It's Steve's mind and character that makes him exceptional, why he can even breathe in the same vicinity as Thanos and dare lift Mjolnir.

    Bucky doesn't have the experience or temperament (yet) to deal with situations like Steve or even Sam. Bucky only has a few years of experience before and after his stint as the Winter Soldier over the Flagsmashers.

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  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    snip
    I feel like one of us has seriously misinterpreted this character...

    There is no hard line between Bucky and The Winter Soldier. His programming made him compliant to the orders he was being given by his Hydra handlers, but it didn't turn him into a machine. He had his memories suppressed and was brainwashed into at least some belief in Hydra's goals, but he was still a person...and he definitely still felt pain.

  8. #448
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    I feel like one of us has seriously misinterpreted this character...

    There is no hard line between Bucky and The Winter Soldier. His programming made him compliant to the orders he was being given by his Hydra handlers, but it didn't turn him into a machine. He had his memories suppressed and was brainwashed into at least some belief in Hydra's goals, but he was still a person...and he definitely still felt pain.
    He had no agency though. Bucky could feel the pain but the pain meant nothing but more torture on top of not being having any control of his own body. Like I said, he was a passive observer to the Winter Soldier. You can't really reconcile Bucky's pardon or anyone sticking their neck out for him if he wasn't just along for the ride as Hydra used his body as the 'Winter Soldier'.

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  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    He had no agency though. Bucky could feel the pain but the pain meant nothing but more torture on top of not being having any control of his own body. Like I said, he was a passive observer to the Winter Soldier. You can't really reconcile Bucky's pardon or anyone sticking their neck out for him if he wasn't just along for the ride as Hydra used his body as the 'Winter Soldier'.
    Not completely passive... just unable to break free on his own. Otherwise Steve would never have been able to reach him. And, even with his personality and memories suppressed, he's still able to ask questions. He wanted to know how Steve knew who he was.

    And just because he was "only along for the ride"... it doesn't mean he's lost any of the skills he had as the Winter Soldier. That little Display Zemo had him do in Madripoor proved that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  10. #450
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Not completely passive... just unable to break free on his own. Otherwise Steve would never have been able to reach him. And, even with his personality and memories suppressed, he's still able to ask questions. He wanted to know how Steve knew who he was.

    And just because he was "only along for the ride"... it doesn't mean he's lost any of the skills he had as the Winter Soldier. That little Display Zemo had him do in Madripoor proved that.
    I'm not saying that Bucky is an incapable fighter, I'm trying to paint a picture as to why him being having the serum doesn't mean he just wipes the floor with everyone. Bucky is still coming to terms with being his own man. He has all the potential Steve had but without the same about time, experiences (on his own), wisdom to tap into it. The Winter Soldier, same body but not Bucky. The primal unyielding instinct without care of self-injury is gone as Bucky. Bucky has to learn from the ground floor up. Well not exactly the ground floor because he was lucid enough to imitate the Winter Soldier. What he did for Zemo was nothing more than reacting what saw through the eyes of the Winter Soldier, like a novice cook imitating a YouTube video they saw of Gordon Ramsey. Maybe they were successful at imitating Ramsey but maybe a while before they can cook on their own. Bucky is still going to be shaky when it comes to fighting until Bucky is able to come to terms with who Bucky is.

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  11. #451
    I think one of the biggest problems Bucky has at the moment is that he doesn't know when to apply his strength right now. He does it absolutely right in actual fighting situations. But he also knows he is still unstable and loses his calm (which of course comes with being traumatized, the man has been tortured for a few decades, so yea..) while not in a fight and is unsure of applying his strength there. Like when he freaks out at Zemo, Sam stops him and you can see, Bucky agrees that threatening Zemo here was wrong (because he was 'bullying' him with his superior strength). Later he doesn't dare hold Walker back from joining Sam and Karli, even though he of course could, because Walker gets to him with the serum talk and he doesn't know which is the right place to apply this strength: hold Walker back and let Sam finish ('bully' Walker into waiting with his superior strength) or let Walker through and go with him to help Sam.
    The dilemma here being the very same that Zemo has been talking about, if you have superior strength, is it ever ok to use it to get what you want, even if you think what you want is the right thing or 'the greater good', because once you use it, you're being a bully towards someone.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    That's a bad comparison...since an elephant and a human aren't of comparable sizes. Super Soldiers are strong...but they are still human sized opponents. There's no reason why a judo move wouldn't be just as effective against a super soldier as it is on anyone else.
    No reason except super powers?

  13. #453
    Did anyone ever stop to think the Dora Milaje were that strong in that fight......for a narrative purpose?

    That purpose being to humiliate John Walker and push him to secretly take the serum which he has in his pocket, which no one else knows about?

    Hell, it's even important that they're NOT super soldiers, because then he has no excuse, and his push to take the serum is complete and thorough, after a little hypothetical with his bestie.

    Y'all argue this shit like it's physics and the show is a TED Talk, when it's a story trying to push certain story beats.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Y'all argue this shit like it's physics and the show is a TED Talk, when it's a story trying to push certain story beats.
    Geeks gotta geek ;-)

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    No reason except super powers?
    It's not like they are the Hulk. They aren't even in the same strength category as Spider-Man. They may be stronger than normal humans...but that doesn't give them the ability to completely ignore things like leverage.
    Last edited by Evil Midnight Bomber; 2021-04-11 at 01:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    No reason except super powers?
    So you don't understand how fighting works, that has been established.

    Cap, and the other super soldiers, have enhanced strength and stamina. That's about it. Everything else they display is 'trained human' level. You can simply gun them down; look what happened to Karli. If they hit you, they'll probably kill you. But first they have to hit you, and Judo is about avoiding your opponent, not to block them.
    Last edited by Skulltaker; 2021-04-11 at 01:53 PM.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    No reason except super powers?
    Being strong doesn’t make you weigh multiple tons.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post

    Y'all argue this shit like it's physics and the show is a TED Talk, when it's a story trying to push certain story beats.
    I recall saying something similar to you about why the Dora Minaje let Zemo move to the next room. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    I recall saying something similar to you about why the Dora Minaje let Zemo move to the next room. :P
    That, narratively, makes no sense. It has nothing to do with physical power levels or superpower capabilities, it's a pure story beat taken by the writers. It breaks immersion to suggest the Dora Milaje would be so distracted as to let as wiley a character as Zemo out of their eyesight.

    John Walker getting his ass beat and humiliated by non-super soldiers is a story beat that serves a narrative function of pushing him to use the serum, and powerlevels are irrelevant to it.

    Even if powerlevels were well defined, we have a saying in the football world, "Any given Sunday," meaning in any given week, two foes meeting where you're almost certain of the result can never be absolutely certain because you can't control all the moving parts that goes into a battle. It's like arguing that the Allies couldn't have won the Battle of the Bulge because of the logistics of the two armies fighting.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    That, narratively, makes no sense. It has nothing to do with physical power levels or superpower capabilities, it's a pure story beat taken by the writers. It breaks immersion to suggest the Dora Milaje would be so distracted as to let as wiley a character as Zemo out of their eyesight.

    John Walker getting his ass beat and humiliated by non-super soldiers is a story beat that serves a narrative function of pushing him to use the serum, and powerlevels are irrelevant to it.

    Even if powerlevels were well defined, we have a saying in the football world, "Any given Sunday," meaning in any given week, two foes meeting where you're almost certain of the result can never be absolutely certain because you can't control all the moving parts that goes into a battle. It's like arguing that the Allies couldn't have won the Battle of the Bulge because of the logistics of the two armies fighting.
    The problem with your analogy is it’s like a pro team playing hs teams. I guess on any given Sunday the kids could win, but it’s not remotely likely.

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