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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    That, narratively, makes no sense. It has nothing to do with physical power levels or superpower capabilities, it's a pure story beat taken by the writers. It breaks immersion to suggest the Dora Milaje would be so distracted as to let as wiley a character as Zemo out of their eyesight.
    If they were try to grab Zemo while fighting Walker...that would automatically engage Bucky and Sam in the fight as well. That's basically like fighting a war on two fronts.

    John Walker getting his ass beat and humiliated by non-super soldiers is a story beat that serves a narrative function of pushing him to use the serum, and powerlevels are irrelevant to it.
    It's established elsewhere that John and Lamar would not hesitate to use the Super Soldier Serum if given the chance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  2. #462
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Honestly I don't understand all that. If Dora Milaje are capable of dealing with super soldiers 1v1 with no problem, then what's exactly the point of super soldiers ? That means that any single trained fighter with vibranium equipment is capable of doing the same feats as Captain, Black Panther and Winter Soldier. Then I don't even see the point of the Wakanda needing a Black Panther to begin with.
    Who says they ever needed a Black Panther? It was primarily a status symbol, a mark of kingship, before the modern era. It wasn't something they developed because they needed it, it was a way they consistently demonstrated their supremacy.

    Wakanda's aspects are so overpowered in the MCU that it's becoming sickening. Next thing you know is Shuri going 1v1 against Strange and winning fingers in the nose
    Why would that even be a problem? Shuri's pretty much on the same par as Tony Stark in terms of tech proficiency.

    Wakanda is the most advanced nation on the planet and it isn't even a close race. It isn't just a matter of something like American dominance, which is almost entirely economic; they are legitimately decades more technologically advanced than any other nation on the planet, if not a century or more. Wakanda going up against the US and EU would work out like one of those games of Civilization where your tank troops roll in against knights on horseback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Go do a judo move on an elephant, endus. tell us how it went after.
    The elephant's got a hell of a lot more mass. Mass is what makes the difference there, not strength. And super soldier serums don't give you much more mass (and the "much" is basically just for Steve's variant, which bulked him up a bit, nowhere close to elephant levels of mass).

    If a 100lb girl does a judo throw on a 300lb weightlifter and does it correctly, the weightlifter's hitting the dirt. His strength literally will not help. Speaking as a guy who, again, was a 250lb heavy-set guy who got launched 10 feet by my buddy's girlfriend who weighed maybe 120lbs, and I also had a good 6 or 8 inches of height on her. I was a hell of a lot stronger than her, but I tried to use muscle over technique, and that's why I went for a trip.

    There's a reason top martial artists don't look like body builders, dude.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Honestly I don't understand all that. If Dora Milaje are capable of dealing with super soldiers 1v1 with no problem, then what's exactly the point of super soldiers ? That means that any single trained fighter with vibranium equipment is capable of doing the same feats as Captain, Black Panther and Winter Soldier. Then I don't even see the point of the Wakanda needing a Black Panther to begin with.

    One Dora Milaje should be a no match for a super soldier, period. And if that's the Vibranium stuff they wield that make such a difference, then Infinity War's Wakanda's battle would have ended within minutes.

    Wakanda's aspects are so overpowered in the MCU that it's becoming sickening. Next thing you know is Shuri going 1v1 against Strange and winning fingers in the nose
    The point is, that there is indeed no point to supersoldiers, because if you make them, someone else is just going to make an Ironman suit. Tony was just a human with superior tech too and he took on 2 mega-honed battle-hardened and experienced supersoldiers and only barely lost. And before that it took all of the Avengers to dismantle some Stark Tech running amok (Ultron). Steve Rogers wasn't the boss because he was a supersoldier. That helped in fights, but that was not the reason he was so valuable. It was his tactical thinking, his wits and his empathy that made him super, not his strength.
    And while Earth is killing themselves fighting over who has the superior grunts (supersoldiers), everyone else in the Universe has the superior tech in addition to being stronger and more powerful body-wise (at least the conquering societies, like the Kree).

    I think the only thing you could argue as being a 'good thing' about a super soldier program would be a serum that only has the regenerative aspect. Make people more resilient and heal faster and then give it to everyone, in case there is an alien army around, give it to everyone on the planet and then pour all of your ressources into new and better tech. And maybe make some friends with other alien species and people with superpowers instead of antagonizing them. Then you have your armor around the world.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The elephant's got a hell of a lot more mass. Mass is what makes the difference there, not strength. And super soldier serums don't give you much more mass (and the "much" is basically just for Steve's variant, which bulked him up a bit, nowhere close to elephant levels of mass).

    If a 100lb girl does a judo throw on a 300lb weightlifter and does it correctly, the weightlifter's hitting the dirt. His strength literally will not help. Speaking as a guy who, again, was a 250lb heavy-set guy who got launched 10 feet by my buddy's girlfriend who weighed maybe 120lbs, and I also had a good 6 or 8 inches of height on her. I was a hell of a lot stronger than her, but I tried to use muscle over technique, and that's why I went for a trip.

    There's a reason top martial artists don't look like body builders, dude.
    it's cute how you keep going back to regular humans for your examples. But Bucky is a supe, got fighting experience, he knows of the experience of his opponents. Your example seems to be, what? Bucky would stand still n let someone throw him?

    There's such a thing called take-down defense, u might have heard of it just by watching ufc.

    Now, an experienced fighter, and a supe, somehow is defeated? I know ur woke, so u will never admit the absurdity of your position..

    Last edited by Ihavewaffles; 2021-04-11 at 03:50 PM.

  5. #465
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    it's cute how you keep going back to regular humans for your examples. But Bucky is a supe, got fighting experience, he knows of the experience of his opponents. Your example seems to be, what? Bucky would stand still n let someone throw him?

    There's such a thing called take-down defense, u might have heard of it just by watching ufc.

    Now, an experienced fighter, and a supe, somehow is defeated? I know ur woke, so u will never admit the absurdity of your position..
    Super soldier serum takes you to "peak human capacity". He isn't throwing cars at people.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Super soldier serum takes you to "peak human capacity". He isn't throwing cars at people.
    Don't think he needs to go hulk on regular humies.

    btw currently watching CA civil war, serum is way beyond regular human at peak capacity, look at capt holding a helicopter from taking away, the strain of those joints..those wakandian kittens can tussle with serum dudes? yeah, right...
    Last edited by Ihavewaffles; 2021-04-11 at 06:01 PM.

  7. #467
    Sam and Bucky were always going to give Zemo back up at some point. Their goal was to bring him to justice again at some point, not just let him slip out of sight unseen as well. And as you noticed, they got involved in the fight anyways because the Dora Milaje were so ragey they were going for the kills against Walker and Hoskins. So they failed on that front regardless, and btw, still kicked all four of their asses, 3 v 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    It's established elsewhere that John and Lamar would not hesitate to use the Super Soldier Serum if given the chance.
    Established in the scene right after the fight. And even then Walker was unsure, until he got a "Hells Yeah" from his boy, and reassurance that it wouldn't affect him negatively (Hoskins was wrong, and it led directly to the events of the end of the episode).

  8. #468
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Established in the scene right after the fight. And even then Walker was unsure, until he got a "Hells Yeah" from his boy, and reassurance that it wouldn't affect him negatively (Hoskins was wrong, and it led directly to the events of the end of the episode).
    I'm not convinced the serum did affect John negatively.

    I think it just gives you the strength to be who you really are, less reason to give a shit about whoever tells you "no, wait, stop . . ."

    I think John was always the kind of guy who'd kill an enemy in a public square like that, if he thought he could get away with it. And now that he's got this strength, who's gonna stop him?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Don't think he needs to go hulk on regular humies.

    btw currently watching CA civil war, serum is way beyond regular human at peak capacity, look at capt holding a helicopter from taking away, the strain of those joints..those wakandian kittens can tussle with serum dudes? yeah, right...
    They literally do in their regular training, which includes training against/with the Black Panther, who's even stronger than Cap and other super soldiers.

    And yes; what you see Steve doing there is pretty near "peak human". Marvel uses that term to describe the apex of human achievement; Steve is essentially as strong as the strongest weightlifter, as agile as the best gymnast, etc. Probably a bit beyond any actual human because of how all these things come together; he can run faster than Usain Bolt because his legs are stronger and he's more agile; he can literally push further with each pace and move his legs more quickly.

    Black Panther, on the other hand, is canonically stronger. When he and Bucky fight, Bucky gets a hand on T'Challa's throat, and T'challa just grabs Bucky's hand and pulls it right off.

    They were also able to hold their own just fine in the battles against Thanos and his troops.

    I really don't care why you're being dismissive of the Dora Milaje, whether it's because they're women or because they're African, but it's literally bullshit you're making up.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'm not convinced the serum did affect John negatively.
    Doesn't matter what you think on the subject.

    Erskine himself said it works that way; the serum doesn't just affect you physically but mentally as well, amplifying everything about you. "The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great, bad becomes worse."

    You can think whatever you want, but that's pure head canon that has no basis in (the fictional) reality.

  10. #470
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    Doesn't matter what you think on the subject.

    Erskine himself said it works that way; the serum doesn't just affect you physically but mentally as well, amplifying everything about you. "The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great, bad becomes worse."

    You can think whatever you want, but that's pure head canon that has no basis in (the fictional) reality.
    That wasn't the whole quote. And it is debatable if he meant that literally and not figuratively.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    That wasn't the whole quote. And it is debatable if he meant that literally and not figuratively.
    Again, debate it all you want in your head. But that's all it is; head canon. It's been stated repeatedly on-screen that that's how it works. Your personal opinions to the contrary mean nothing.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They literally do in their regular training, which includes training against/with the Black Panther, who's even stronger than Cap and other super soldiers.

    And yes; what you see Steve doing there is pretty near "peak human". Marvel uses that term to describe the apex of human achievement; Steve is essentially as strong as the strongest weightlifter, as agile as the best gymnast, etc. Probably a bit beyond any actual human because of how all these things come together; he can run faster than Usain Bolt because his legs are stronger and he's more agile; he can literally push further with each pace and move his legs more quickly.

    Black Panther, on the other hand, is canonically stronger. When he and Bucky fight, Bucky gets a hand on T'Challa's throat, and T'challa just grabs Bucky's hand and pulls it right off.

    They were also able to hold their own just fine in the battles against Thanos and his troops.

    I really don't care why you're being dismissive of the Dora Milaje, whether it's because they're women or because they're African, but it's literally bullshit you're making up.
    Ah, there he is...woke endus dude, what have been talking about the whole time? that they are mere human.

    As for black panther playing around with those kittenz..good that u made my case how powerful he is when he went up against other supes, yet all this woke stuff that they can be on par...what is exactly the point of being a supe if a non-supe can counter it? Makes as much sense as the Punisher beating the Hulk or something.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'm not convinced the serum did affect John negatively.

    I think it just gives you the strength to be who you really are, less reason to give a shit about whoever tells you "no, wait, stop . . ."

    I think John was always the kind of guy who'd kill an enemy in a public square like that, if he thought he could get away with it. And now that he's got this strength, who's gonna stop him?

    - - - Updated - - -
    I'm not so sure he was. Ironically, I think that what made him worse was not the serum, but the shield. John is a decorated war hero, higher decorated than anyone else. 3 Medals of Honor, and probably a lot more. In any case, he can be considered the top of the field in regards of the US military. He has done some tough shit.

    And now, his country gives him the chance, or rather orders him to, become THE american symbol. The Starspangled banner incarnate. He gets the parade, he probably also looked up to the real Cap to some degree. And now you have a terrorist organization that opposes everything Mr. Star Spangled Banner stands for. They are literally the antithesis to what he percieves Captain America to be. He stands for a Nation, they want to get rid of it, and others, but that's secondary to him.

    So he, now Captain America, walks up to Caps former closest friends, an Avenger and Caps sidekick, people who have been feared and revered. He's got a clear purpose, and his brother in arms at his side. Maybe he expects the Avengers to rally around him, maybe not.

    And they just completely dismiss him. Sam, the Falcon, the man who was entrusted with the Shield by Cap, measures him up and considers him not worth talking to. I think that really doesn't compute.

    And when he, the best America has to offer, is face to face with (sorry for the colorful language) some spear-chucking people from the third world he absolutely gets his ass handed to him. It isn't even close. He must have realized that they could have ended him then and there. Imagine what that does to a man who was just named 'Your Captain America'. It's his own personal 9/11, a brutal awakening, a reminder that three Medals of Honor and the Shield mean jack shit. His entire world broke apart around him. It's enough to make everyone snap.

    Don't get me wrong, it's pretty clear that John wasn't exactly a nice guy. I think he's comparable to Gilmore Hodge, the guy in Roger's unit who got floored by Peggy Carter. He's sure of himself, and rightfully so. In regards of soldiers, he's probably at the top. It's like being the fastest race horse, and then being expected to keep up with Peregrine Falcons. You don't even compete. Imagine what that does to a man who has no objection to kill.
    Last edited by Skulltaker; 2021-04-11 at 09:38 PM.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Super soldier serum takes you to "peak human capacity". He isn't throwing cars at people.
    Peak human capacity in the mcu though has seen him throwing his motorcycle like 30 feet with momentum and taking out a jeep full of soldiers or something similar and being able to push back on Thanos while he is wearing the IG along with a ton of other things no regular human would have much of any chance of replicating. In short, peak human(which is a similar thing in comics where it allows heroes like him to do things like lift a ton or two) is well above what any standard human is capable of. Even when it comes to static strength type movements vs guys who are 6-8 400lb, full of steroids and train for pure strength year round.

  15. #475
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Ah, there he is...woke endus dude, what have been talking about the whole time? that they are mere human.
    So are a lot of other heroes you aren't focusing on. So I'm trying to figure out why you're focusing on the Dora Milaje specifically.

    As for black panther playing around with those kittenz
    See, with sexist diminutives like that. That's the issue.

    good that u made my case how powerful he is when he went up against other supes, yet all this woke stuff that they can be on par...what is exactly the point of being a supe if a non-supe can counter it? Makes as much sense as the Punisher beating the Hulk or something.
    You realize Frank's killed the Hulk before, right?

    And you realize that plenty of "normal humans" have gone toe-to-toe with super-powered individuals and done just fine, in the MCU? Even leaving aside Black Widow (because she had a serum variant in the comics, and that may come out in her solo film), there's Hawkeye, Falcon, if we just want to stick to "within normal human capacities" we could stick Rocket Raccoon in there and arguably Star-Lord too (he never really taps into his heritage in any meaningful way). If we just allow technological-tools-for-regular-folks (given that the Dora Milaje are using Wakanda tech, which is comparable), we can add Ant-Man, Iron Man, War Machine, and the Wasp.

    And that's just the heroes.

  16. #476
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    Again, debate it all you want in your head. But that's all it is; head canon. It's been stated repeatedly on-screen that that's how it works. Your personal opinions to the contrary mean nothing.
    As is yours, you just don't want to accept that your argument isn't a proven fact, but rather a belief characters in universe have.

    What personality changes did Rogers have? None. He is still the same as the skinny boy from Brooklyn.
    We know nothing of most of the Super Soldiers prior to them taking the serum.

    Those with significant pre- and post- serum time are: Rogers, Barnes, and Blonsky. Soon to be Walker. Of those we know, only one seems to experience personality changes (being Blonsky). And Blonsky was not treated with the perfected serum.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    Again, debate it all you want in your head. But that's all it is; head canon. It's been stated repeatedly on-screen that that's how it works. Your personal opinions to the contrary mean nothing.
    This isn't actually Erskine's formula though. It's something similar but not the same.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Don't think he needs to go hulk on regular humies.

    btw currently watching CA civil war, serum is way beyond regular human at peak capacity, look at capt holding a helicopter from taking away, the strain of those joints..those wakandian kittens can tussle with serum dudes? yeah, right...
    Yes they can...the same way Cap can tussle with Spider-Man...the power difference between Cap and Spider-Man is greater than the power difference between Super Soldiers and humans in prime physical condition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Super soldier serum takes you to "peak human capacity". He isn't throwing cars at people.
    That's what it was billed as in the 1941 comics. Unless we're including Spider-Man on the spectrum of human capacity he's gone well past peak in the modern era of both comics and the MCU with Steve preventing a helicopter from moving in Civil War. No matter how peak human you are you're not going to embed a blunt metal frisbee a foot deep into cinderblocks, or kick someone hard enough that they move like they were hit by a truck instead of a foot.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    As is yours, you just don't want to accept that your argument isn't a proven fact, but rather a belief characters in universe have.

    What personality changes did Rogers have? None. He is still the same as the skinny boy from Brooklyn.
    We know nothing of most of the Super Soldiers prior to them taking the serum.

    Those with significant pre- and post- serum time are: Rogers, Barnes, and Blonsky. Soon to be Walker. Of those we know, only one seems to experience personality changes (being Blonsky). And Blonsky was not treated with the perfected serum.
    Just give up already. Theres no reason to argue about things that have been canonically proven by trying to turn it into fanfic instead.

    Noone claimed Rogers would have personality changes nor anyone else for that matter... strengthening whats there doesnt mean something changes, it means something improves... for better or for worse.
    A bad person becomes a worse person, its not a change its an "improvement" or an enhancement.
    Likewise a good person becomes an even better person... and this is exactly what has happened with Rogers and Walker. Ofcourse its not easy to see because rogers doesnt have a long history without the serum but walker is a prime example, hes killed people for the greater good and he will continue to do so if he thinks its necessary.
    Those medals arent a sign of a perfect person, they were awarded to him for his bravery but they also remind him of his failures, this is what he said in the episode. (and the episode is canon so no reason to argue against it, he doesnt exactly cherish those medals of honor)

    Theres also the quote from Captain America: 'This is why you were chosen. Because a strong man, who has known power all his life, will lose respect for that power. But a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows compassion.' Dr. Abraham Erskine
    Walker was never weak, Rogers was weak.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    That's what it was billed as in the 1941 comics. Unless we're including Spider-Man on the spectrum of human capacity he's gone well past peak in the modern era of both comics and the MCU with Steve preventing a helicopter from moving in Civil War. No matter how peak human you are you're not going to embed a blunt metal frisbee a foot deep into cinderblocks, or kick someone hard enough that they move like they were hit by a truck instead of a foot.
    Spider-Man isn't on the Super Soldier formula...and Cap isn't anywhere close to Spidey
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

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