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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Spider-Man isn't on the Super Soldier formula...and Cap isn't anywhere close to Spidey
    Maybe, maybe not. We don't know Spider-man's origin in the MCU, in the Ultimates universe Spider-man was the result of trying to replicate the super soldier formula. Since they just introduced the idea that people weren't content to leave Steve as a unique page of the history books they could use that as a story hook. The point is Cap is well past peak human capacity in the real world, you're not going to find a weightlifter capable of overpowering a helicopter's engine.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    Maybe, maybe not. We don't know Spider-man's origin in the MCU, in the Ultimates universe Spider-man was the result of trying to replicate the super soldier formula. Since they just introduced the idea that people weren't content to leave Steve as a unique page of the history books they could use that as a story hook. The point is Cap is well past peak human capacity in the real world, you're not going to find a weightlifter capable of overpowering a helicopter's engine.
    Osborn wasn't trying to recreate the original Super Soldier Serum...he was creating a new one.

    An attempt to create a new Super Soldier Serum isn't the same thing as the Super Soldier Serum that Cap got...and Ultimate Spider-Man is still stronger than Ultimate Cap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  3. #483
    Question: When Steve got injected with the serum, they gave him like, what? 6 doses? Does the dosage affect how much stronger the person gets? Cause Walker only took 1.
    Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten. -G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Osborn wasn't trying to recreate the original Super Soldier Serum...he was creating a new one.

    An attempt to create a new Super Soldier Serum isn't the same thing as the Super Soldier Serum that Cap got...and Ultimate Spider-Man is still stronger than Ultimate Cap.
    It was based on the Super Soldier Serum, reverse engineered from Fury's blood, basically the same origin as Falcon and Winter Soldier's new serum. I'm not arguing that Spider-man isn't stronger than Cap, but Steve and all the other super soldiers are definitely far stronger than anything that would be considered peak human in reality.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    It was based on the Super Soldier Serum, reverse engineered from Fury's blood., basically the same origin as Falcon and Winter Soldier's new serum. I'm not arguing that Spider-man isn't stronger than Cap, but Steve and all the other super soldiers are definitely far stronger than anything that would be considered peak human in reality.
    And the Serum Fury got isn't the same as the Serum Steve got. It was an early test version. And then Osborn reversed engineered from Fury's blood and added his own things into the mix for good measure...creating an entirely new formula. Unless you somehow missed that Spider-Man climbs walls and has low-level precognition? It's not the same formula. And then Miles got another version of Osborn's Attempts...which gave him some new powers that even Peter didn't get. And of course there's what Norman did to himself. These are all different formulas.

    It's like saying a Ferrari and a Pinto are the same thing because they are both cars. Or, more fittingly, it's like saying that Humans are the same thing as gorillas because we have a common ancestor.
    Last edited by Evil Midnight Bomber; 2021-04-11 at 11:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Question: When Steve got injected with the serum, they gave him like, what? 6 doses? Does the dosage affect how much stronger the person gets? Cause Walker only took 1.
    Technically none of them should be as "peak" as Steve Rogers is, because they all failed to include the really important part: The exposure to a massive dose of Vita Rays. Whatever those are supposed to be.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    Technically none of them should be as "peak" as Steve Rogers is, because they all failed to include the really important part: The exposure to a massive dose of Vita Rays. Whatever those are supposed to be.
    Well, do we know exactly how they "dosed up" Barnes? And we don't know how the serum has been changed over the years; arguably vita rays are not necessary anymore.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    Well, do we know exactly how they "dosed up" Barnes? And we don't know how the serum has been changed over the years; arguably vita rays are not necessary anymore.
    Not disagreeing at all. In my mind, they were needed for him more because of just how scrawny he was to begin with, while the vast majority of other subjects were already in really good health. But that has no real backing in anything.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    Not disagreeing at all. In my mind, they were needed for him more because of just how scrawny he was to begin with, while the vast majority of other subjects were already in really good health. But that has no real backing in anything.
    I don't think that's the case really. All of the other candidates in Steve's program were men of exceptional fitness...but they all would have undergone the same treatment Steve did. The Vita rays were just to activate the Serum.

    The Serum these guys are getting is not the same serum Steve got though. It's probably closer to the version that Emil Blonsky (The Abomination) got. Blonsky's shot didn't seem to require Vita Rays either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    So are a lot of other heroes you aren't focusing on. So I'm trying to figure out why you're focusing on the Dora Milaje specifically.
    are u really questioning why we are talking about the characters in the show?

    You realize Frank's killed the Hulk before, right?
    I couldn't give a shit about some no-name issue marvel comics company going down the drains desperately sold. Talk about having no imagination if that's what they did. I said the punisher as a joke, and then you reply proudly that marvel would sink that low as if ur making some kind of argument.

    It's obvious marvel doesn't care about the rules of the universe they set up themselves. No wonder nobody buys their shit anymore..

    If it wasn't for the movies n the old stories, nobody would even talk about marvel today.

  11. #491
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otaka View Post
    Just give up already. Theres no reason to argue about things that have been canonically proven by trying to turn it into fanfic instead.
    Because it hasn't. Characters stating what they believe to be true =/= being true.

    Seriously, you even quote how it is a personality change. A strong man will lose respect for the power ... what do you think that means? Seriously. And the reason I use personality is because it what if you look up on the MCU Wiki uses that the serum causes changes in personality.

    You're own post proves you don't even understand the canon enough to post.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    That wasn't the whole quote. And it is debatable if he meant that literally and not figuratively.
    Most likely means literally. We have seen examples of other people taking the serum or different versions of it and it affected them negatively in terms of their personality. From Blonsky in The Incredible Hulk (I made a comparison between him and walker earlier) to the other 'Winter Soldiers' Hydra tried to create with the Serum they got when Bucky killed Howard Stark. Who's to say that this ultimate perfected version is any different? I'm also sure the guy who originally made the serum and saw how it affected the Red Skull would know the dangers of it. Which was why he chose Steve long before Steve had passed the trials. As shown with his conversations with Tommy Lee Jones' character in the First Avenger. Where the latter wanted to basically pick a guy like Walker while Erskine was against the idea because that guy was ultimately a bully.

  13. #493
    Man the mental gymnastics some people go through to justify their probable sexism and racism.

    One addition I've liked is also that Winter Soldier Bucky has no regard for others and does his mission as effectively as possible, hence why in Civil War or Winter Soldier he was strong enough to be the villain / part villain etc, however when not in the Winter Soldier state he won't go all out, something something good guy human compassion and so on. He's not really the Winter Soldier any more, so he holds back more.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Question: When Steve got injected with the serum, they gave him like, what? 6 doses? Does the dosage affect how much stronger the person gets? Cause Walker only took 1.
    Keep in mind that the dosage Walker took was from the 'ultimate perfected version' where it becomes more subtle. Would also be because Erskine had just completed his version (Red Skull took a beta version) so that could explain why Steve needed more. Could also be because of Steves physical body as well. Where Steve was a really skinny, runty guy. The other people we have seen that have taken the serums since then are either regular people with average body types or trained fighters / assassins.

  15. #495
    i always figured the stuff Capt got was better as it bulked him up but others seem more or less the same size physically so therefore not as potent or strength enhancing. I say this as someone that doesn't read the comics so I have no issues being wrong just the opinion of a movie watcher.

    and yes Bucky was holding back it's obvious.
    Member: Shadow Lands Alpha Club, Member since 4/9/2020

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Question: When Steve got injected with the serum, they gave him like, what? 6 doses? Does the dosage affect how much stronger the person gets? Cause Walker only took 1.
    i think so and it enhances the strength and the person's morality according to which side they're on so it made cap not only stronger but also more good while redskull became more twisted and evil. think of the force in star wars with light side enlightenment and dark side corruption
    "You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation."

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    are u really questioning why we are talking about the characters in the show?



    I couldn't give a shit about some no-name issue marvel comics company going down the drains desperately sold. Talk about having no imagination if that's what they did. I said the punisher as a joke, and then you reply proudly that marvel would sink that low as if ur making some kind of argument.

    It's obvious marvel doesn't care about the rules of the universe they set up themselves. No wonder nobody buys their shit anymore..

    If it wasn't for the movies n the old stories, nobody would even talk about marvel today.
    You can stop watching their stuff any time.

  18. #498
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    I couldn't give a shit about some no-name issue marvel comics company going down the drains desperately sold. Talk about having no imagination if that's what they did. I said the punisher as a joke, and then you reply proudly that marvel would sink that low as if ur making some kind of argument.

    It's obvious marvel doesn't care about the rules of the universe they set up themselves. No wonder nobody buys their shit anymore..

    If it wasn't for the movies n the old stories, nobody would even talk about marvel today.
    Marvel is massively successful as a company. "If it wasn't for their most successful products, nobody would talk about them today". That's like arguing "if it weren't for Mac laptops and ipads and iphones, nobody would talk about Apple today." Just absolutely frickin' ludicrous.

    You made a comment that betrayed how little you know about the source material. In trying to defend a position that the films have already canonically demonstrated to be false in a myriad of ways, both generally and in specific (namely, that the Dora Milaje are just normal people and therefore can't handle fighting superhumans).

  19. #499
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volardelis View Post
    Most likely means literally. We have seen examples of other people taking the serum or different versions of it and it affected them negatively in terms of their personality. From Blonsky in The Incredible Hulk (I made a comparison between him and walker earlier) to the other 'Winter Soldiers' Hydra tried to create with the Serum they got when Bucky killed Howard Stark. Who's to say that this ultimate perfected version is any different? I'm also sure the guy who originally made the serum and saw how it affected the Red Skull would know the dangers of it. Which was why he chose Steve long before Steve had passed the trials. As shown with his conversations with Tommy Lee Jones' character in the First Avenger. Where the latter wanted to basically pick a guy like Walker while Erskine was against the idea because that guy was ultimately a bully.
    That's why I said it is debatable. You can read it as literal, if you do it is clear he is also then literally talking about changes in personality (ie losing respect for the power ... that's a personality change.) Or you can read it figuratively where it isn't the serum doing it directly but rather something that happens with the person based on their personality.

    I am dealing with people who think I am arguing that it is "100% figurative" when my argument is "It wasn't proven to be literal." It may be literal, it may not be. The story doesn't need it to be one way or the other and keeping it vague allows people to come to their own conclusions on the characters.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Question: When Steve got injected with the serum, they gave him like, what? 6 doses? Does the dosage affect how much stronger the person gets? Cause Walker only took 1.
    It was stated that this is a refined version of the serum that works differently than the one made by Erskine. It's designed to have the same effects without the physical change... and in a single injection versus the crazy iron maiden like radiation capsule they used on Steve.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    i think so and it enhances the strength and the person's morality according to which side they're on so it made cap not only stronger but also more good while redskull became more twisted and evil. think of the force in star wars with light side enlightenment and dark side corruption
    It's a refined version of the serum, that was talked about earlier in the series.

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