Page 32 of 66 FirstFirst ...
22
30
31
32
33
34
42
... LastLast
  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I think the whole show boils down to explaining why there will not ever be a new Captain America.
    Idk. Certainly seems like Sam is taking up the shield considering his training montage. I guess we’ll see what he’s called in a little under a week.

  2. #622
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,217
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    I also feel like if they really wanted to push the race issue then they should have done something different with US Agent and Battlestar. Cause Walker shows that even a white dude will get thrown under the bus when the Government deems it necessary.
    In what universe do you think Walker got "thrown under the bus"?

    He murdered a guy. Who was trying to surrender. In broad daylight. While filmed by like 100 bystanders.

    He didn't even get court-martialed. The US Government would have been entirely in the right to put Walker in a stockade for the rest of his natural life. Most likely, the Raft, since he's supered up and they'd need to contain him. Letting him just walk away? That's letting him off super lightly, and they explicitly state that outright in the show. He got a handshake and a "fare ye well" and was allowed to go off and live whatever life he'd choose to. He wasn't even dishonorably discharged. He got punished less than some soldiers who get drunk and do something stupid while on-duty.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Idk. Certainly seems like Sam is taking up the shield considering his training montage. I guess we’ll see what he’s called in a little under a week.
    The shield, yes. The shield isn't going anywhere. The bit where the US government admits they don't actually even own the shield, technically, makes it clear they're separating that piece of tech from the US government, narratively.

    If I pulled that "Red Falcon" idea out of my butt and it turns out true (seriously, it's a WILD guess based on practically nothing), I'm picturing the shield with a red/white/black color scheme, without any blue. If Bucky takes it up, maybe white with a wolf motif, since the closest thing he has to a new superhero name is the "White Wolf" thing the Wakandans gave him.

    The metal disk will still exist, and still be biffed at people's heads. I don't know who'll be doing the biffing, at this point; seems like Sam, could still be Bucky. I don't think the Captain America mantle or the iconography of the shield are gonna survive the show. They'd have to walk back nearly everything they've said with this narrative to make either of the boys be "Captain America", at this point, IMO. And I don't see that happening.


  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In what universe do you think Walker got "thrown under the bus"?

    He murdered a guy. Who was trying to surrender. In broad daylight. While filmed by like 100 bystanders.

    He didn't even get court-martialed. The US Government would have been entirely in the right to put Walker in a stockade for the rest of his natural life. Most likely, the Raft, since he's supered up and they'd need to contain him. Letting him just walk away? That's letting him off super lightly, and they explicitly state that outright in the show. He got a handshake and a "fare ye well" and was allowed to go off and live whatever life he'd choose to. He wasn't even dishonorably discharged. He got punished less than some soldiers who get drunk and do something stupid while on-duty.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The shield, yes. The shield isn't going anywhere. The bit where the US government admits they don't actually even own the shield, technically, makes it clear they're separating that piece of tech from the US government, narratively.

    If I pulled that "Red Falcon" idea out of my butt and it turns out true (seriously, it's a WILD guess based on practically nothing), I'm picturing the shield with a red/white/black color scheme, without any blue. If Bucky takes it up, maybe white with a wolf motif, since the closest thing he has to a new superhero name is the "White Wolf" thing the Wakandans gave him.

    The metal disk will still exist, and still be biffed at people's heads. I don't know who'll be doing the biffing, at this point; seems like Sam, could still be Bucky. I don't think the Captain America mantle or the iconography of the shield are gonna survive the show. They'd have to walk back nearly everything they've said with this narrative to make either of the boys be "Captain America", at this point, IMO. And I don't see that happening.
    Madam Hydra isn’t the government. The government asked for the shield back. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Sam was called Cap for a while since he passed the Falcon mantle on this week.

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    1. The times were different and so were the wars.
    The times between 1940 and 1950 really aren't that different. All wars are different...but WWII had much larger stakes. The kind of war you might want to have a bunch of Super Soldiers for.

    2. Steve was seen as a great propaganda device for the war and there wasn't as much American propaganda for the Korean war.
    And a black Super Soldier wouldn't have been a great propaganda device.

    3. Steve became a popsicle during a war and wasn't thawed out until decades later when they already had Isaiah to experiment on.
    They no longer had Isaiah by the time Steve was thawed out.

    4. They did take a bunch of his blood in an attempt to recreate the serum.
    Which they could have just done with Isaiah. But instead they went much further.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Overall, though, I didn’t enjoy this episode. It was too woke and felt like a filler episode.... and I don’t really like Sam’s sister. I find her annoying.
    It was literally the continuation of the themes of episode 2. In this same series, 3 weeks ago.

    Like, the whole show has been an allegory for the struggle of young black men as feeling truly American or represented by the red, white and blue.

    And it was written 20 years ago.

  6. #626
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Alpha Quadrant
    Posts
    1,373
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    This is why Walker's an interesting character. For better or worse he's US military through and through, who does whatever it takes to get the job done - much like with US military history, wether that makes him the "hero" or "villain" is the debate.

    They literally just tried to murder him and killed his best friend. The FlagSmashers had made it clear they wanted him dead. The guy he killed was even holding him back so Karli could try and drive a knife into his heart, and then restrained him while his friend was killed.

    Sure, he looked like he maybe felt regret before he ran away, but that doesn't make him less guity in his part in it (and their other bombings and killing civilians).

    So when Walker had overpowered the guy by the fountain who'd literally just been trying to kill him and murdered his best friend...

    SHOULD you stop as soon as he was overpowered and the guy was surrendering? Hell yes!

    But would you?
    He's not the one that killed his friend though.

  7. #627
    The Lightbringer The-Shan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Somewhere in the Badlands
    Posts
    3,872
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I don't think the Captain America mantle or the iconography of the shield are gonna survive the show. They'd have to walk back nearly everything they've said with this narrative to make either of the boys be "Captain America", at this point, IMO. And I don't see that happening.
    Half of the episode was dedicated to the narrative of "We don't give up on our history". That's what inspired him to take up the shield in the first place. He's absolutely going to take up the Captain America mantle. The narrative they are pushing is that Isaiah is jaded, but that just because America was shitty, and still is shitty, doesn't mean it isn't for black people, and that a black man can't pick up the mantle.

    In fact, I'd be really insulted if Disney didn't let an African AMERICAN be Captain America.

    The boat was an analogy for the shield, and not giving up on your history, your inheritance.

    Furthermore, the guy who he said 'keep em' about the wings to succeeds him as Falcon when he becomes Captain America in the comics. He's not going back to being Falcon, having his wings torn off is a massive narrative cue.
    Last edited by The-Shan; 2021-04-17 at 04:33 AM.
    thinly veiled high elf thread

  8. #628
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Alpha Quadrant
    Posts
    1,373
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Madam Hydra isn’t the government. The government asked for the shield back. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Sam was called Cap for a while since he passed the Falcon mantle on this week.
    The shield doesn't belong to the government.

  9. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    He's not the one that killed his friend though.
    I think we should all note how the dude isn't remorseful in this episode at all either: he lies to both himself and Lemar's family about who actually killed him, because he needs to justify it to himself. And he tries to kill Sam in the first few minutes of this episode. Literally tries to kill the dude, and only failed because Bucky, who he thought was knocked out, tackled him.

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    It was literally the continuation of the themes of episode 2. In this same series, 3 weeks ago.

    Like, the whole show has been an allegory for the struggle of young black men as feeling truly American or represented by the red, white and blue.

    And it was written 20 years ago.
    I’m not arguing that it’s not important to the story to show those struggles... I think they just went too far with it in this episode. It was too much, imo.
    Twitter & DeviantArt
    Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten. -G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman

  11. #631
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Alpha Quadrant
    Posts
    1,373
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I think we should all note how the dude isn't remorseful in this episode at all either: he lies to both himself and Lemar's family about who actually killed him, because he needs to justify it to himself. And he tries to kill Sam in the first few minutes of this episode. Literally tries to kill the dude, and only failed because Bucky, who he thought was knocked out, tackled him.
    Dude's being made into US Agent.
    https://www.marvel.com/characters/u-s-agent

  12. #632
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,217
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Dude's being made into US Agent.
    https://www.marvel.com/characters/u-s-agent
    And in this iteration of the character, US Agent is gonna be a Hydra asset. The lady who picked him up is Madam Hydra.

    He is not a good guy.


  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In what universe do you think Walker got "thrown under the bus"?

    He murdered a guy. Who was trying to surrender. In broad daylight. While filmed by like 100 bystanders.

    He didn't even get court-martialed. The US Government would have been entirely in the right to put Walker in a stockade for the rest of his natural life. Most likely, the Raft, since he's supered up and they'd need to contain him. Letting him just walk away? That's letting him off super lightly, and they explicitly state that outright in the show. He got a handshake and a "fare ye well" and was allowed to go off and live whatever life he'd choose to. He wasn't even dishonorably discharged. He got punished less than some soldiers who get drunk and do something stupid while on-duty.
    What I mean is that they would have been ok with his actions. It's that he was filmed and so had to do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post

    I think the whole show boils down to explaining why there will not ever be a new Captain America.
    I think you might be right. But I'm curious how much Disney is going to expect people to know about the TV universe for its films. Like is white vision going to be a thing showing up right away in the actual films? If they destroy the shield or Sam doesn't have that are they going to explain in the films that or is going to be jarring for the people who only watch the films? Going to be real interesting to see how Multiverse of Madness deals with Wandavision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    The times between 1940 and 1950 really aren't that different. All wars are different...but WWII had much larger stakes. The kind of war you might want to have a bunch of Super Soldiers for.
    Of course times were different.


    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber
    And a black Super Soldier wouldn't have been a great propaganda device.
    No a black super soldier wouldn't have been a great propaganda device because then the world would have known there were super soldiers. The reason they tried to get rid of them all was because they were "evidence".



    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber
    They no longer had Isaiah by the time Steve was thawed out.
    I know...... Steve Rodgers wasn't unthawed until much later meaning they couldn't have experimented on him anymore. They able to create a new super soldier and were able to use him to experiment on for decades. They didn't need to worry about unthawing Steve.


    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber

    Which they could have just done with Isaiah. But instead they went much further.
    Isaiah was a super soldier they didn't need anymore except to hopefully make more. And they already knew how effective they were recreating a serum from just Steve's blood so why on earth would you think they would just stop at his blood??
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-04-17 at 04:44 AM.

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I’m not arguing that it’s not important to the story to show those struggles... I think they just went too far with it in this episode. It was too much, imo.
    What was too much? A black man, experimented on by the government, being bitter and not thinking much of the red, white and blue?

    Cause that's part of our history. It's factual.

    Isaiah also mentions the Red Tails, an all black squadron of fighter pilots, how they were heroes, and then came home to crosses burning on their lawns. That's not a a made up line. That actually happened. Hell, he didn't even mention how black wealth was robbed from these G.I.'s, who were eligible for the same benefits as white G.I.'s that built the American middle class post-war, yet were denied simply because they were black.

  15. #635
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,217
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    No a black super soldier wouldn't have been a great propaganda device because then the world would have known there were super soldiers. The reason they tried to get rid of them all was because they were "evidence".
    And yet, they put Steve Rogers on posters and used him as a literal propaganda prop on exactly those grounds.

    Steve was made a super soldier during WWII, in the '40s. Bradley was injected in the '50s, when super soldier serum had been a known "thing" for like a decade. They weren't keeping him and his fellow test subjects a secret because they were super soldiers. It was because they were black super soldiers. Who were used because black test subjects were considered expendable.


  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And in this iteration of the character, US Agent is gonna be a Hydra asset. The lady who picked him up is Madam Hydra.

    He is not a good guy.
    It should also be noted, the "pure black" calling card is a sign of the Dark Avengers. So I feel like there'll be a hybrid Thunderbolts/Dark Avengers team including John Walker. It should also be noted the Raft where Zemo is headed, is headed up by General Thunderbolt Ross who's previously played SecDef in Civil War.

  17. #637
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Alpha Quadrant
    Posts
    1,373
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And in this iteration of the character, US Agent is gonna be a Hydra asset. The lady who picked him up is Madam Hydra.

    He is not a good guy.
    Was curious as to who that was, thanks for the info
    Also don't think his friend is really dead, may have been knocked unconscious but hydra picked him up like they did Bucky.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    What was too much? A black man, experimented on by the government, being bitter and not thinking much of the red, white and blue?

    Cause that's part of our history. It's factual.

    Isaiah also mentions the Red Tails, an all black squadron of fighter pilots, how they were heroes, and then came home to crosses burning on their lawns. That's not a a made up line. That actually happened. Hell, he didn't even mention how black wealth was robbed from these G.I.'s, who were eligible for the same benefits as white G.I.'s that built the American middle class post-war, yet were denied simply because they were black.
    Basically the whole episode was about race. Like I said, it’s important to the story, I get it, but they went overboard with it.
    Twitter & DeviantArt
    Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten. -G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And yet, they put Steve Rogers on posters and used him as a literal propaganda prop on exactly those grounds.

    Steve was made a super soldier during WWII, in the '40s. Bradley was injected in the '50s, when super soldier serum had been a known "thing" for like a decade. They weren't keeping him and his fellow test subjects a secret because they were super soldiers. It was because they were black super soldiers. Who were used because black test subjects were considered expendable.
    Propaganda was way more prominent for WWII. And it was a known thing that had disappeared because the dude that could make it and the only super soldier had both died. Also Steve had stopped a Nazi and saved a kid in public.

    Also the whole premise of racists intentionally creating super soldiers from people they hate/dont like is kinda silly imo. I can understand a racist doing horrible experiments on someone and them accidentally getting superpowers but to intentionally create a better X because your somehow worried a white guy might die is pretty dumb. It's like deadpool where they somehow create an even more powerful version of wolverines regeneration and instead of using it on themselves to be rich immortal assholes they give it to some dipshit.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-04-17 at 04:53 AM.

  20. #640
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,217
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    What was too much? A black man, experimented on by the government, being bitter and not thinking much of the red, white and blue?

    Cause that's part of our history. It's factual.

    Isaiah also mentions the Red Tails, an all black squadron of fighter pilots, how they were heroes, and then came home to crosses burning on their lawns. That's not a a made up line. That actually happened. Hell, he didn't even mention how black wealth was robbed from these G.I.'s, who were eligible for the same benefits as white G.I.'s that built the American middle class post-war, yet were denied simply because they were black.
    And really, the reason it's hitting some people so hard to see it presented in "silly superhero stuff" is because that history has largely been suppressed and concealed through a coordinated propaganda and disinformation campaign, to ensure Americans don't have a proper understanding of their own history, not even recent history. An effort that's still ongoing, as you can tell by people being somehow shocked that this show talked about real things that actually happened.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •