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  1. #1101
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    - Walker was amazing, he's pretty much the saving grace of this show

    - Fighting scenes were crap. How can Winter Soldier have so much better fights when it was made 6 years ago?

    - They nerfed Bucky and made him Sam's sidekick. He may as well have not existed and the series would pretty much go the same. He's a Super Soldier, supposedly Steve and T'Challa's equal and yet he didn't do anything that impressive in his own show.

    - I know you Americans are loving it right now but I'm not digging all the racial angles. Yes, the world has racism. No, white people don't hate black people so much that they'd literally throw the only super soldier left in prison just because he's black. That was so stupid lmao. Like World War 2 just finished, Steve is dead, we're all normal people... but wait, we have a super soldier just as strong and fast as Captain America. So what are we gonna' do? Ask him to help us fight the good fight? Nah, let's throw him in jail because we hate black people.

    Come the fuck on.

    It was such an on the nose wink wink plotline and absolutely ridiculous and unrealistic.

    - Sharon and Karli were horrible. Waste of screen time.

    - Walker and Zemo were great.
    9 posts and a join date of April 2021 makes it pretty obvious you're baiting. But even taking your argument in good faith, it's utter nonsense. Unarmed/innocent black people are murdered by police in this country every day. And the time period in which Isaiah was incarcerated was a period in which this country literally segregated black people and treated them as second class citizens. Educate yourself about history before you expose your ignorance.

    Karli and Bucky were a waste though. At least we can agree on that. Bucky shoulda wiped the floor with most of those scrubs and Karli was just "meh."

  2. #1102
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    9 posts and a join date of April 2021 makes it pretty obvious you're baiting. But even taking your argument in good faith, it's utter nonsense. Unarmed/innocent black people are murdered by police in this country every day. And the time period in which Isaiah was incarcerated was a period in which this country literally segregated black people and treated them as second class citizens. Educate yourself about history before you expose your ignorance.

    Karli and Bucky were a waste though. At least we can agree on that. Bucky shoulda wiped the floor with most of those scrubs and Karli was just "meh."
    Not a superpowered one who can jump out of 10 story buildings and kill people with 1 punch, no. There is no reality in which a military sees what is basically a god among men and goes " Haha racism goes brrrr ". Hitler himself would gladly welcome such a soldier. Hell he fucking beat the Winter Soldier ( supposedly ), for a few decades he was the deadliest man on the planet. And you're telling me a military throws him in a jail because they don't like black people? How on the nose can this be?

    You're telling me to read real history to know why saying this superhero plot line is stupid. Bruh moment.

  3. #1103
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Not a superpowered one who can jump out of 10 story buildings and kill people with 1 punch, no. There is no reality in which a military sees what is basically a god among men and goes " Haha racism goes brrrr ". Hitler himself would gladly welcome such a soldier.

    You're telling me to read real history to know why saying this superhero plot line is stupid. Bruh moment.
    Ok kiddo. Talking in Reddit memes isn't going to do you any credit. As someone who actually served in the military, I can tell you firsthand that some of the best Marines I've ever known--people with bronze stars and impeccable records--got shitcanned for things as simple as being gay or incarcerated for minor altercations with egotistical officers who were getting their squadmates killed. While the show is far from realistic, a "super soldier" being imprisoned because he defied orders but still had monetary/research values completely tracks with the innumerable real-world examples of how shitty the military can be to black people (Tuskegee airmen, anyone?) and its heroes.

    Anyway, muting you, because you've made it abundantly clear you're not hear to discuss in good faith. Best of luck hanging that bait hook out, and maybe find a better hobby eh?

    Trolling isn't allowed. Infracted.
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2021-04-24 at 10:58 PM.

  4. #1104
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    There is no reality in which a military sees what is basically a god among men and goes " Haha racism goes brrrr ". Hitler himself would gladly welcome such a soldier. Hell he fucking beat the Winter Soldier ( supposedly ), for a few decades he was the deadliest man on the planet. And you're telling me a military throws him in a jail because they don't like black people? How on the nose can this be?.
    thats the thing with racism, is irrational, it make no sense, but people do anyway, and yep they imprison him to milk his blood tying to replicate the serum.

  5. #1105
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    You're telling me to read real history to know why saying this superhero plot line is stupid. Bruh moment.
    He was in jail to be continuously experimented on, though. They wanted to recreate the serum WHILE still maintaining that kind of shitty belief system. You can be at peak theoretical human performance and still be treated like a commodity.

    Also, Hitler was historically proven wrong about the whole Aryan business, for example, by Jesse Owens in 1936. His beliefs held firm and his heart didn't grow three sizes. Hatred and bigotry are inherently not rational, they don't really fit with the marketplace of ideas and evidence that goes for or against them.

    I do agree that Marvel's backdrop has very extreme circumstances (aliens, gods, wizards, etc.) and it definitely feels like a different universe with different rules, but I feel like if you're going to have Captain America be black, you need to address certain elephants in the room.

    It's also the fact that these aren't new to the setting. Sam Wilson was introduced as a social worker rather than a soldier (then retconned to have been secretly a criminal and gangbanger with memory erase fuckery, then retconned back again). Much of the stories with him and Steve in the 70s were rooted in racial issues of the time...because it was the 70s.

    Fantastical settings realistically SHOULD be devoid of a lot of these issues (I'm reminded of Jennifer Hepler trying to force aesops about homophobia into Mass Effect, a setting about the golden age of fucking space travel), but since they need to reflect topical concepts that the viewers can connect with, they're not going to omit them entirely.

  6. #1106
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    Ok kiddo. Talking in Reddit memes isn't going to do you any credit. As someone who actually served in the military, I can tell you firsthand that some of the best Marines I've ever known--people with bronze stars and impeccable records--got shitcanned for things as simple as being gay or incarcerated for minor altercations with egotistical officers who were getting their squadmates killed. While the show is far from realistic, a "super soldier" being imprisoned because he defied orders but still had monetary/research values completely tracks with the innumerable real-world examples of how shitty the military can be to black people (Tuskegee airmen, anyone?) and its heroes.

    Anyway, muting you, because you've made it abundantly clear you're not hear to discuss in good faith. Best of luck hanging that bait hook out, and maybe find a better hobby eh?
    Ok kiddo
    Cringe.

    As someone who actually served in the military, I can tell you firsthand that some of the best Marines I've ever known--people with bronze stars and impeccable records--got shitcanned
    Those are normal people. Not supersoldiers. Not basically demigods.

    Anyway, muting you
    Real tough guy, thank you for your service.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    thats the thing with racism, is irrational, it make no sense, but people do anyway, and yep they imprison him to milk his blood tying to replicate the serum.

    They could've taken blood samples while also using his abilities in actual warfare.

    It's also ridiculous that they had his blood for 30 years and never achieved anything with it. In Agent Carter ( LOL as if a nyone watched that ) Steve's blood is treated as some serious shit, why? I mean they apparently had a handy non ice-cubed super soldier back home.

    Trolling isn't allowed. Infracted.
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2021-04-24 at 10:58 PM.

  7. #1107
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    If Sharon really is the Power Broker, why would she EVER reveal where Hagel was? What does she gain from that?
    They stole the serum from her. She knows Sam and Bucky are on that trail too, and it was easier for her to insert herself than to try and work against them. That's how I read it.

    Gaslighting Sam into getting her a pardon? He'd have done that even if she "did her best but oops I can't find him."
    It's a cover story. She needs to justify why she's in Madripoor and what she's been doing. It also makes her seem like she needs help, and they're both suckers for that stuff.

    Why even reveal herself to Sam and Bucky in the first place? She can still help them out of their situation with Selby in the club, but why expose herself?
    First, ask yourself why she had a sniper in place targeting Selby in the first place.
    My best guess is that Selby was a problem for <insert reason>, and Sharon was going to remove the problem, and then Sam and Bucky walked in the door. Everything seemed tossed together over the next couple hours, IMO, because it was.

    Why risk super soldier serum for a potential pardon when it seems like you're perfectly fine as you are in Madripoor, and any gains you get from being inside the U.S. government are entirely outweighed by HAVING A PERFECTED SUPER SOLDIER SERUM?
    She developed that serum. She explicitly calls our Karli for betraying her by stealing it, in the final confrontation. She didn't risk the serum; Karli really did steal it and she really was trying to get it back. The pardon's just an opportunity, but she had reason to insert herself with Sam and Bucky to try and keep tabs on their pursuit of the serum even without the offer of a pardon; that just makes it seem like they're the ones helping HER out, rather than vice versa.

    The pardon's still of value because she's worked that into re-inserting herself with the US government, which will help make up a lot of the loss of the serum, if not more.

    I get what you're saying, but I think this was all adequately explained in the show. What we don't know is if Sharon's motive is "be the biggest, baddest crime boss because fuck the law, man" or "the US government is corrupt and stupid and I'm gonna slap a saddle on Madripoor and reform it into a force for justice". We don't actually see her kill anyone who isn't at least arguably a super bad person. Selby was gonna murder Sam and Bucky, Batroc's, well, Batroc, and shot her too. And Karli was giving Sam a run for his money, and had killed a bunch of people. She's definitely more ruthless and has less mercy in her than pre-Snap, but I'm not convinced she's actually villainous yet.


  8. #1108
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post

    - I know you Americans are loving it right now but I'm not digging all the racial angles. Yes, the world has racism. No, white people don't hate black people so much that they'd literally throw the only super soldier left in prison just because he's black. That was so stupid lmao. Like World War 2 just finished, Steve is dead, we're all normal people... but wait, we have a super soldier just as strong and fast as Captain America. So what are we gonna' do? Ask him to help us fight the good fight? Nah, let's throw him in jail because we hate black people.
    If you are not American then why comment on American things you don't understand? You obviously don't know about the history of black soldiers or American society to make that comment. It's less about explicit hate and America's history of treating people of color as second class citizens despite being just as American as whites.

    Experimentation happened, just not with a super soldier serum of course.

    Being sent on one-way missions happened.

    Not receiving the same recognition, accolades, status, respect as their white comrades happened.

    Again, Marvel typically uses social commentary to come up with plotlines. Bradley represents the stories of black soldiers who fought in the world wars and Vietnam.

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  9. #1109
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    If you are not American then why comment on American things you don't understand? You obviously don't know about the history of black soldiers or American society to make that comment. It's less about explicit hate and America's history of treating people of color as second class citizens despite being just as American as whites.

    Experimentation happened, just not with a super soldier serum of course.

    Being sent on one-way missions happened.

    Not receiving the same recognition, accolades, status, respect as their white comrades happened.

    Again, Marvel typically uses social commentary to come up with plotlines. Bradley represents the stories of black soldiers who fought in the world wars and Vietnam.
    Then they shouldn't have made him a supersoldier because considering how much they emphasised the importance and strength of super soldiers it's entirely unrealistic that the US would throw away such an asset just because the guy is black.

    If you are not American then why comment on American things you don't understand?
    Unless you know of a real life super soldier it's not an American thing. It's just a TV show doing very on the nose social commentary that I found unrealistic.

    Yes, racism is bad and happens. No, they wouldn't have jailed him just for being black. Even the fucking Nazi had the Red Skull as their general or whatever. And I'm supposed to believe Hitler accepted the Red Skull but the big bad American racists jailed Isaiah? Yeah right.

  10. #1110
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Then they shouldn't have made him a supersoldier because considering how much they emphasised the importance and strength of super soldiers it's entirely unrealistic that the US would throw away such an asset just because the guy is black.



    Unless you know of a real life super soldier it's not an American thing. It's just a TV show doing very on the nose social commentary that I found unrealistic.

    Yes, racism is bad and happens. No, they wouldn't have jailed him just for being black. Even the fucking Nazi had the Red Skull as their general or whatever. And I'm supposed to believe Hitler accepted the Red Skull but the big bad American racists jailed Isaiah? Yeah right.
    Yeah I'm just going to mute your like the other guy because you are on some clown shit.

    Trolling isn't allowed. Infracted.
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2021-04-24 at 10:59 PM.

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  11. #1111
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Then they shouldn't have made him a supersoldier because considering how much they emphasised the importance and strength of super soldiers it's entirely unrealistic that the US would throw away such an asset just because the guy is black.
    They literally do. In real life throw away useful assets all the time. They saw Bradley as either a failure or a freak occurrence who was better off in R&D
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  12. #1112
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Then they shouldn't have made him a supersoldier because considering how much they emphasised the importance and strength of super soldiers it's entirely unrealistic that the US would throw away such an asset just because the guy is black.



    Unless you know of a real life super soldier it's not an American thing. It's just a TV show doing very on the nose social commentary that I found unrealistic.

    Yes, racism is bad and happens. No, they wouldn't have jailed him just for being black. Even the fucking Nazi had the Red Skull as their general or whatever. And I'm supposed to believe Hitler accepted the Red Skull but the big bad American racists jailed Isaiah? Yeah right.
    Why wouldn’t Hitler have accepted the Red Skull? He was a Nazi before his face got fucked up...

  13. #1113
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Then they shouldn't have made him a supersoldier because considering how much they emphasised the importance and strength of super soldiers it's entirely unrealistic that the US would throw away such an asset just because the guy is black.



    Unless you know of a real life super soldier it's not an American thing. It's just a TV show doing very on the nose social commentary that I found unrealistic.

    Yes, racism is bad and happens. No, they wouldn't have jailed him just for being black. Even the fucking Nazi had the Red Skull as their general or whatever. And I'm supposed to believe Hitler accepted the Red Skull but the big bad American racists jailed Isaiah? Yeah right.
    Your entire argument is predicated on an assumption that people in MCU's world wouldn't behave exactly like people really do in the real world.

    Which is a ridiculous premise.


  14. #1114
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Then they shouldn't have made him a supersoldier because considering how much they emphasised the importance and strength of super soldiers it's entirely unrealistic that the US would throw away such an asset just because the guy is black.



    Unless you know of a real life super soldier it's not an American thing. It's just a TV show doing very on the nose social commentary that I found unrealistic.

    Yes, racism is bad and happens. No, they wouldn't have jailed him just for being black. Even the fucking Nazi had the Red Skull as their general or whatever. And I'm supposed to believe Hitler accepted the Red Skull but the big bad American racists jailed Isaiah? Yeah right.
    Why is this April 2021 racist still getting people to converse with him?

    Trolling isn't allowed. Infracted.
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2021-04-24 at 10:59 PM.

  15. #1115
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Your entire argument is predicated on an assumption that people in MCU's world wouldn't behave exactly like people really do in the real world.

    Which is a ridiculous premise.
    Especially when the premise of Marvel is the real world but with super heroes. They are supposed to act like people in the real world, not some alternate reality where prejudice ceases to exist because “powers”!

  16. #1116
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlz0rz View Post
    Overall a good show.
    Sixth episode was decent, but some aspect of it was a little bit weird, and too over the top.
    What is up with Walker? He just suddenly becomes this stable person again, and decides to help out, and Sam/Bucky just accepts it at face value?

    And then you have the scene where he carries the girl(don't remember the name), and then he has a political chat with ACTUAL politicians in the middle of the street, making it seem like he has some good points. It boils down to him saying "Just make it better!", instead of what that one politician says "It's extremely complex". They could've cut that WHOLE scene out, and to me the episode would've been better.
    They also went REALLY heavy on the "look, I am black" aspect, which I feel they could've dialed a little bit back, and not done it so over the top on that last episode.


    I did like the scene towards the end, where he makes sure to honor Isaiah and what he contributed.
    Sam also makes for a very nice Captain America, so I'm glad they went with him in the end!
    That's the strange thing to me, if you step back from the emotional tones added on top of what Walker actually did, he was portrayed in a muuuuch darker way than say Karli(who did arguably far worse things, she just didn't have a "Shield" to disparrage by doing so). I understand the imaging issues of what Walker did, the symbolic issues, but honestly, his turn around wasn't a surprise for me, because he didn't have as far to go back from as Karli. I understand the characters in universe having some issues with it, but it worked for me.

    Now Sam playing semantics on the word 'terrorist' made this contrast even weirder and almost ruined the episode for me. Karli is given a lighter view, in contrast to Walker...it just feels, well, weird. Like, it actually feels a little immoral to me that the(admittedly violent) death of one of Karli's teammates for emotional revenge is cause to condemn Walker(and have the whole scene played out like he despises Walker), yet Karli killing prisoners and threatening to continue to escalate beyond her goals is something he has to bend over backwards to redeem. Look, I like Steve and the Shield, but holy cow, that is moral favoritism. Walker was mentally broken and falling apart at the seams. Karli was sliding headfirst, willfully, into villainy.

  17. #1117
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Your entire argument is predicated on an assumption that people in MCU's world wouldn't behave exactly like people really do in the real world.

    Which is a ridiculous premise.
    People in the real world would leap at the chance of having a supersoldier.

    Also the literal Nazi accepted Schmidt and made him a top guy even though he looked like a pizza. And you're telling me the Americans are worse than the Nazi? No, I cannot believe such a ridiculous scenario.

    Good that you can, for me it's on-the-nose bullshit.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2021-04-24 at 10:49 PM.

  18. #1118
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    People in the real world would leap at the chance of having a supersoldier.

    Also the literal Nazi accepted Schmidt even though he looked like a pizza. And you're telling me the Americans are worse?
    He wasn't seen as a person, much less a super soldier. He, like the rest of the men who were forced into the program, were considered lab rats. The point is very explicitly made that the people behind the tests picked African Americans NOT because they wanted to make a black super soldier, but because they needed bodies to experiment on and in their eyes these men (ALL OF THEM) were expendable. The fact that it worked on Isaiah and he managed to put the serum to use on missions didn't make him any more a person in their eyes, just a resource.

    The fact that you can't wrap your mind around the idea of someone not being considered a person and afforded their basic human rights strictly based on their skin color is probably a good thing, but that was a reality whether you like it or not.

  19. #1119
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    -snip-
    She risked the serum by leading Zemo, literally a guy who hates and has tried to destroy all super soldiers in the past, to the lab of the scientist who recreated the first stable version of it since WW2.

    For that matter, why even put the bounty on Sam and Bucky in the first place...just so she can save them and insert herself? She coulda just walked out of the shadows and Sam/Bucky would've been like "OMG SHARON good to see you!!!" I'm telling you, it makes very little sense.

  20. #1120
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