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  1. #1121
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    She risked the serum by leading Zemo, literally a guy who hates and has tried to destroy all super soldiers in the past, to the lab of the scientist who recreated the first stable version of it since WW2.

    For that matter, why even put the bounty on Sam and Bucky in the first place...just so she can save them and insert herself? She coulda just walked out of the shadows and Sam/Bucky would've been like "OMG SHARON good to see you!!!" I'm telling you, it makes very little sense.
    Yeah, i agree.
    To me it seems that the scrapped epidemic-story left too many wholes for the writers to fill on such short notice.

    A few thigs just seemed forced/clichéd to me:
    Sam being so lenient with Karli (not just to de-escalate things but even when away from her) but constantly busting Buckies balls, a guy who fought with him against the Mad Titan? So that was there just we have that troped not-so-buddy-cop-thing.

    Using black people to create super-soldiers but then waste them because racism?
    If i were a racist i would do what the US goverment did do: Use them to test diseases and cures for those, like in the Tuskegee Syphilis study.
    When you run a SSS experiment you do it like in the first Cap movie: volunteers of 'your' guys. Because you do not want to risk 'one of them' to become a super soldier and become a symbol of power or freedom/resistance.
    Yes, i know that Isaiah is canon in comics and now the MCU, but in FatWS the drama was cranked up to a 10. Just compare what is said in the show to the comics.
    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Isaia...ey_(Earth-616)

    and the speech, oh that speech.
    They really tried to ram just all the clichés possible into that one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm fine with a mafia. Of course, the mafia families often worked with independent third parties in order to maintain relations.

  2. #1122
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    She risked the serum by leading Zemo, literally a guy who hates and has tried to destroy all super soldiers in the past, to the lab of the scientist who recreated the first stable version of it since WW2.
    That scientist had already produced functioning serum. His process worked. I have to assume Sharon had already decided he wasn't needed any more because she could replicate the stuff without him now, and that's why she used the boys to tie off a loose end.

    For that matter, why even put the bounty on Sam and Bucky in the first place...just so she can save them and insert herself?
    Puts them under pressure and makes them need a friend, which she immediately provides them with. Like, literally within moments. The only people who could catch on in that time frame were whatever dingbat street trash were in the immediate area, which she and they could handle.

    She coulda just walked out of the shadows and Sam/Bucky would've been like "OMG SHARON good to see you!!!" I'm telling you, it makes very little sense.
    But they might've asked more questions about what she was doing there and how well-off she was, if they weren't reliant on her goodwill to survive "the wrath of the Power Broker". She was their lifeline out, so they weren't about to question her.

    Plus, by the end, it's super clear she keeps her identity as the Power Broker under wraps. Everyone knows the Broker exists, but nobody knows who the Broker is. It's not like she can just tell them she runs Madripoor, a city known for its criminality, and they'll still trust her like they end up doing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    Using black people to create super-soldiers but then waste them because racism?
    If i were a racist i would do what the US goverment did do: Use them to test diseases and cures for those, like in the Tuskegee Syphilis study.
    That's literally what they were doing.

    The prototype SSS they were using on Bradley and his buddies were all experimental variants, trying to find a stable method, since Erskine's was lost. That stuff was poison and it killed everyone it got given to. Except Bradley.

    They were tossing these guys into suicide missions to test their performance before they died, and once they realized Bradley wasn't going to die, that's when they put him in a cage and experimented on him for 30 years, like an animal.

    It was about creating a stable product they could use on "real" subjects, and Bradley and his fellows were just lab rats that were never expected to survive the experimental process.


  3. #1123
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's literally what they were doing.

    The prototype SSS they were using on Bradley and his buddies were all experimental variants, trying to find a stable method, since Erskine's was lost. That stuff was poison and it killed everyone it got given to. Except Bradley.

    They were tossing these guys into suicide missions to test their performance before they died, and once they realized Bradley wasn't going to die, that's when they put him in a cage and experimented on him for 30 years, like an animal.

    It was about creating a stable product they could use on "real" subjects, and Bradley and his fellows were just lab rats that were never expected to survive the experimental process.
    And IMHO it makes no sense for a real racist to do that.
    By using undesireable people as the guniea pigs to create the SSS you risk creating a new super soldier or several. Who will then run roughshod over the whole experiment and become symbols of resistance. The MCU Nazis did not run those experiments in their concentration camps, the US military not in their relocation camps for Asian Americans, they ran them on their most dedicated boys to boost them, not a potential enemy.

    I know that the writers were inspired by the Tuskegee experiment. But the victims were mostly rural african americans from poor communities, and the soutcome of those experiments were ranging from treatsment for a disease to death of an undesirable person. Not armed and trained soldiers, with potential threats to national security or jeopardizing an entire theatre of war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm fine with a mafia. Of course, the mafia families often worked with independent third parties in order to maintain relations.

  4. #1124
    Personally I liked Walker the best, Wyatt Russel is a pretty awesome actor and he did the role well. Can't say I blame him for crushing the one dude in episode 4, I'd have done the same in a fit of rage after having your best friend kill. Not everyone has to be Steve Rogers in this world. Zemo was great as well.

    Overall the one arc I didn't care for was Sharon; I didn't care for her much to begin with from the movies, and now she's just a traitor. Guess the next Captain America movie will deal with that loose end.

  5. #1125
    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    And IMHO it makes no sense for a real racist to do that.
    By using undesireable people as the guniea pigs to create the SSS you risk creating a new super soldier or several. Who will then run roughshod over the whole experiment and become symbols of resistance. The MCU Nazis did not run those experiments in their concentration camps, the US military not in their relocation camps for Asian Americans, they ran them on their most dedicated boys to boost them, not a potential enemy.

    I know that the writers were inspired by the Tuskegee experiment. But the victims were mostly rural african americans from poor communities, and the soutcome of those experiments were ranging from treatsment for a disease to death of an undesirable person. Not armed and trained soldiers, with potential threats to national security or jeopardizing an entire theatre of war.
    Yeah I agree with you. Just look at how in real life they didn't even want the Tuskegee Airmen to pilot planes. Black people had to push to let them be pilots. Would they really have risked creating super black people even if it meant most died? Also the formula came from the Nazi's. Why would they think that the Nazi's would create a super soldier formula that would work on anyone other than their "perfect race". And you already know it worked perfectly on a blonde haired blue eyed(I think) white boy why not try and replicate the test subjects too?

    I understand they are trying to stick close to the comics which is good but its kinda silly imo just like Sam not getting a fucking helmet. You use a shield to block most of your body from damage but you still need to see which is why you wear a god damn helmet. He's basically asking to get headshot. He really should have gotten a badass helmet and kept the rest of the suit more like the comics.

    Bringing up forbidden topics isn't allowed. Infracted.
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2021-04-26 at 03:28 AM.

  6. #1126
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    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    And IMHO it makes no sense for a real racist to do that.
    By using undesireable people as the guniea pigs to create the SSS you risk creating a new super soldier or several. Who will then run roughshod over the whole experiment and become symbols of resistance. The MCU Nazis did not run those experiments in their concentration camps, the US military not in their relocation camps for Asian Americans, they ran them on their most dedicated boys to boost them, not a potential enemy.

    I know that the writers were inspired by the Tuskegee experiment. But the victims were mostly rural african americans from poor communities, and the soutcome of those experiments were ranging from treatsment for a disease to death of an undesirable person. Not armed and trained soldiers, with potential threats to national security or jeopardizing an entire theatre of war.
    Tuskegee was classism not racism though. Unless you are saying the main players at an African-American institution were racist.

    Bringing up forbidden topics isn't allowed. Infracted.
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2021-04-26 at 03:28 AM.

  7. #1127
    Question - if the person Sharon was talking to on the phone at the end of the last episode was Nick Fury, would what she was saying make sense?

    I'm not entirely convinced she's the Power Broker.

  8. #1128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That scientist had already produced functioning serum. His process worked. I have to assume Sharon had already decided he wasn't needed any more because she could replicate the stuff without him now, and that's why she used the boys to tie off a loose end.
    but she literally said the super soldier is out of the table, why she would say that if she can replicate? its just do more.

    i have t agree that this part was a bit of a mess.

  9. #1129
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    I understand they are trying to stick close to the comics which is good but its kinda silly imo just like Sam not getting a fucking helmet. You use a shield to block most of your body from damage but you still need to see which is why you wear a god damn helmet. He's basically asking to get headshot. He really should have gotten a badass helmet and kept the rest of the suit more like the comics.
    Yeah the lack of helmet was pretty funny. Forget headshots, the guy is zipping around at pretty high speeds and usually leading with his head. I mean it's a good idea to wear a helmet when you're traveling at bicycle speeds...

  10. #1130
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Hahahah, oh lord - it's always so funny (and yet so sad) to see how hypocritical and blind most of the right-wing grifters are. Moreso just embarrassing actually.

    Rules for thee but not for me etc
    ......weird a certain group invaded the Oklahoma capitol building this week to stop a session as you say rules for me and not for thee......or you know that same group has been invading government buildings and burning them down since their inception...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by neocount View Post
    Question - if the person Sharon was talking to on the phone at the end of the last episode was Nick Fury, would what she was saying make sense?

    I'm not entirely convinced she's the Power Broker.
    No, it pretty much seems to seal it. People get too deep on Disney stuff(myself included when I said it made no sense for her to be it). They're not playing 4D chess here.

    Bringing up forbidden topics isn't allowed. Infracted.
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2021-04-25 at 04:45 PM.

  11. #1131
    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    And IMHO it makes no sense for a real racist to do that.

    By using undesireable people as the guniea pigs to create the SSS you risk creating a new super soldier or several. Who will then run roughshod over the whole experiment and become symbols of resistance.
    It absolutely makes sense. A "real racist" wouldn't even see them as people, but rather just disposable guinea pigs to test dangerous and unstable concoctions on. I'm sure they were well aware that most of the subjects would die, and were probably fairly confident that any that didn't die could just be caged. Just because there might have been a risk of one of the subjects escaping and fighting back doesn't mean all REAL racists would consider that a likely risk or a reason not to do the experiments if the whole point was to isolate a usable serum for more "worthy" candidates.

  12. #1132
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    ......weird a certain group invaded the Oklahoma capitol building this week to stop a session as you say rules for me and not for thee......or you know that same group has been invading government buildings and burning them down since their inception...
    In case anyone else is wondering what he's going off about;

    https://www.koco.com/article/oklahom...itol/36191759#
    https://kfor.com/news/protesters-gat...ahoma-capitol/

    Literally just a couple dozen protesters who legally entered the building and yelled some slogans. No damage done, no assaults, they left peacefully when asked. That's it. That's what he's trying to present as an "invasion".

    No "attempting to stop a session"; that's just a flat-out lie.

    And definitely no arson. But why stick to the facts when you can fantasize about an alternate reality?

    Particularly when it's not the fantastical alternate reality of the show we're supposed to be discussing. Gotta get that political disinformation out everywhere.

    Bringing up forbidden topics isn't allowed. Infracted.
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2021-04-26 at 03:31 AM.


  13. #1133
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They stole the serum from her. She knows Sam and Bucky are on that trail too, and it was easier for her to insert herself than to try and work against them. That's how I read it.



    It's a cover story. She needs to justify why she's in Madripoor and what she's been doing. It also makes her seem like she needs help, and they're both suckers for that stuff.



    First, ask yourself why she had a sniper in place targeting Selby in the first place.
    My best guess is that Selby was a problem for <insert reason>, and Sharon was going to remove the problem, and then Sam and Bucky walked in the door. Everything seemed tossed together over the next couple hours, IMO, because it was.



    She developed that serum. She explicitly calls our Karli for betraying her by stealing it, in the final confrontation. She didn't risk the serum; Karli really did steal it and she really was trying to get it back. The pardon's just an opportunity, but she had reason to insert herself with Sam and Bucky to try and keep tabs on their pursuit of the serum even without the offer of a pardon; that just makes it seem like they're the ones helping HER out, rather than vice versa.

    The pardon's still of value because she's worked that into re-inserting herself with the US government, which will help make up a lot of the loss of the serum, if not more.

    I get what you're saying, but I think this was all adequately explained in the show. What we don't know is if Sharon's motive is "be the biggest, baddest crime boss because fuck the law, man" or "the US government is corrupt and stupid and I'm gonna slap a saddle on Madripoor and reform it into a force for justice". We don't actually see her kill anyone who isn't at least arguably a super bad person. Selby was gonna murder Sam and Bucky, Batroc's, well, Batroc, and shot her too. And Karli was giving Sam a run for his money, and had killed a bunch of people. She's definitely more ruthless and has less mercy in her than pre-Snap, but I'm not convinced she's actually villainous yet.
    I think she is a villain now, and I think that makes sense. She got really screwed over by circumstance and the US government with all the shield fallout and CA civil war stuff, and now I think she's just running with that Benedict Arnold energy.

    Unrelated to the comment I'm quoting, I don't see how any of the race stuff is 'unrealistic' or 'cliched'. The one I've seen people bitching about a lot is the cops interrupting Bucky and Sam and being like "is this guy bothering you?" before recognizing him as the Falcon. I know a handful of semi-recognizable NFL players, and that kind of thing has happened to pretty much all of them (in front of me with one of them).

    Also unrelated I was a little disappointed that Bucky's stuff kind of fell by the wayside for the latter couple of episodes, but it's not like what I got out of the show was bad. I'd just like to see more Winter Soldier stuff too. I assume there'll definitely be plenty more screen time for them in movies, and possibly shows, so we'll get other stuff.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    Yeah the lack of helmet was pretty funny. Forget headshots, the guy is zipping around at pretty high speeds and usually leading with his head. I mean it's a good idea to wear a helmet when you're traveling at bicycle speeds...
    I mean, he didn't have a helmet when he was just Falcon either, but now that he's got like that white spandex thing that goes up to his goggles, and then just has the top of his head sticking out it's kind of conspicuous.

  14. #1134
    Think the series overall was pretty good. I agree with some people that Karly's character didn't work that well, first off because people went ridiculously easy on her given the amount of people she's killed and secondly because she never felt truly threatening. I think the setup toward Sam becoming the Falcon was very good and I liked how he embodied hope for better in the face of Isaiah's (understandable) disillusion. I did feel his speech at the end was a little too long and somewhat cheesy and the fact it worked was too unrealistic. In this case show rather than tell would've been better, because it felt too preachy and on the nose. I think the Isaiah scene was a billion times better in that regard, because it showed cap actually doing something and Isaiah remaining skeptical but still finding a shred of inspiration.
    I also have a bit of an issue with every black superheroes' arcs being so heavily dominated by struggles against racism, at some point it gets exhausting and you want to just watch them kick some alien or sorcerers ass.

    As many have said Zemo was a highlight and I felt that Bucky also worked extremely well both as a friend to Sam and as someone dealing with their own issues.

    Walker was a cooler character than I expected, and actually at his most interesting and surprising when doing the right thing. I feel like it would've been easy to simply make us hate him, but showing someone trying to do well struggling to fill the gigantic boots left by cap was very well done. Feel like his new alias may be a poor choice for maintaining this direction though, and in that sense it kind of disappointed me.

    Both Bucky and Falcon had a bunch of cool fighting scenes though at times both of them struggled a bit more than makes sense given what I'd estimate their powerlevel to be.

    Looking forward to the next season though and I hope to see the guys dealing with more significant threats.

  15. #1135
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polyxo View Post
    I think she is a villain now, and I think that makes sense. She got really screwed over by circumstance and the US government with all the shield fallout and CA civil war stuff, and now I think she's just running with that Benedict Arnold energy.
    Honestly, I've been mulling it over for a while, and another factor I think might have contributed to her "fall" is just the unbearable weight of legacy. Her mother was Peggy motherfuckin' Carter. The lady who built SHIELD out of scraps. She's the one who crushed HYDRA (at least, the overt forces). Imagine growing up with everyone expecting you to follow those footsteps. Always judging you when you fail to be a world-changing force of personality. Sure, you get a pity offer to be a SHIELD agent, but you don't get the big missions. Hell, you only got tasked with keeping taps on Steve when he got defrosted because they hoped you be enough like your mom that he'd be attracted to you, not because of any actual skill; it's still all about your mom.

    That's gotta wear on a person, even before they cast her aside without a second thought and made it super clear they'd never thought much of her.

    Also unrelated I was a little disappointed that Bucky's stuff kind of fell by the wayside for the latter couple of episodes, but it's not like what I got out of the show was bad. I'd just like to see more Winter Soldier stuff too. I assume there'll definitely be plenty more screen time for them in movies, and possibly shows, so we'll get other stuff.
    I've been saying since like Ep 2 that I felt Bucky needed the shield more. I understand why they went with Sam, and it's more culturally meaningful in a lot of ways I am not in any way contesting, but narratively, I felt Sam was pretty comfortable with who he was, whereas Bucky's just . . . lost. Bucky's arc in this show is a long downward spiral to the bottom. He's finally made his last amends, which is a positive step out from under the weight of his past misdeeds, but he still doesn't really know who he is. He's still the guy who feels, inside, like Steve was wrong about him the whole time. Now he doesn't even have the positive steps of those amends to take; what does he do now? I really hope they've got a strong plan for the character moving forward, because where he's at right now is pretty damned dark, even if they didn't focus on it much in the finale. His final scenes are him ruining his last friendship, which was always based on a lie in the first place. It's not a positive scene, at all.


  16. #1136
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Her mother was Peggy motherfuckin' Carter.
    It was her *aunt* Peggy. Not mother, not saying the legacy ain't a heavy burden. But they're at least not mother/daughter.. also given the age difference I would probably even guess greataunt.. not that it matters, I still think you're fairly on point.



    The show itself, overall. I liked it, it didn't surprise me in any way shape or form. But it was a decent marvel show, not their best but still worth a watch. I'd have liked to have seen more Bucky, but it wasn't his own show after all. Zemo was good, if perhaps treated a bit too much like a comical relief. He should give off the vibe that even without powers. He's the most dangerous man in the room, and at times. That came through for me. But sometimes he was just *not* that.

  17. #1137
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Honestly, I've been mulling it over for a while, and another factor I think might have contributed to her "fall" is just the unbearable weight of legacy. Her mother was Peggy motherfuckin' Carter. The lady who built SHIELD out of scraps. She's the one who crushed HYDRA (at least, the overt forces). Imagine growing up with everyone expecting you to follow those footsteps. Always judging you when you fail to be a world-changing force of personality. Sure, you get a pity offer to be a SHIELD agent, but you don't get the big missions. Hell, you only got tasked with keeping taps on Steve when he got defrosted because they hoped you be enough like your mom that he'd be attracted to you, not because of any actual skill; it's still all about your mom.

    That's gotta wear on a person, even before they cast her aside without a second thought and made it super clear they'd never thought much of her.



    I've been saying since like Ep 2 that I felt Bucky needed the shield more. I understand why they went with Sam, and it's more culturally meaningful in a lot of ways I am not in any way contesting, but narratively, I felt Sam was pretty comfortable with who he was, whereas Bucky's just . . . lost. Bucky's arc in this show is a long downward spiral to the bottom. He's finally made his last amends, which is a positive step out from under the weight of his past misdeeds, but he still doesn't really know who he is. He's still the guy who feels, inside, like Steve was wrong about him the whole time. Now he doesn't even have the positive steps of those amends to take; what does he do now? I really hope they've got a strong plan for the character moving forward, because where he's at right now is pretty damned dark, even if they didn't focus on it much in the finale. His final scenes are him ruining his last friendship, which was always based on a lie in the first place. It's not a positive scene, at all.
    His final scenes are him finding a new family with Sam. After he finished making amends and moving forward.

  18. #1138
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    His final scenes are him finding a new family with Sam. After he finished making amends and moving forward.
    Unless he's gonna start dating Sam's sister in a marriage-path kinda way, he's just a friend who's tagging along with Sam, not a part of the family, however welcome he may be there.


  19. #1139
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Unless he's gonna start dating Sam's sister in a marriage-path kinda way, he's just a friend who's tagging along with Sam, not a part of the family, however welcome he may be there.
    You've got a weird view of family. Bucky's view tends to include his closest friend being his brother. Their relationship has been quite like siblings for a while now. I'm not saying he's literally a part of that family, but that's a group he clearly feels comfortable with, playing with the kids, flirting with Sam's sister. I'm not saying he shouldn't keep looking for love, but the entire point of that final scene was to show he'd found some peace and was enjoying life with the people he was closest to now that Steve is gone.

  20. #1140
    Quote Originally Posted by The Offbeat View Post
    It was her *aunt* Peggy. Not mother, not saying the legacy ain't a heavy burden. But they're at least not mother/daughter.. also given the age difference I would probably even guess greataunt.. not that it matters, I still think you're fairly on point.



    The show itself, overall. I liked it, it didn't surprise me in any way shape or form. But it was a decent marvel show, not their best but still worth a watch. I'd have liked to have seen more Bucky, but it wasn't his own show after all. Zemo was good, if perhaps treated a bit too much like a comical relief. He should give off the vibe that even without powers. He's the most dangerous man in the room, and at times. That came through for me. But sometimes he was just *not* that.
    I really thought Zemo's scenes worked so perfectly, especially with him 'understating' himself as much as he did. The others totally got played by him playing the kind of meek guy, which is why the danger he poses was completely forgotten until he just straight up shot Nagel and everybody went surprised pikachu face. I totally loved that. And the scene where for once he tries to actually point out that he's the most dangerous man in the room, it is made clear that he's actually not. He's the most dangerous man once he leaves the room or people think he's safely locked away. But when he points out his power (leverage) to Bucky, Bucky is about to kill him, which Zemo knows full well he could. Also, how he just silently hid himself behind Falcon and Bucky when Sharon pointed a gun at them.
    And Zemo got one of the most disgusting scenes (wonderfully acted by Brühl!) when he's "selling" the Winter Soldier to Shelby. That level of depravity he put on display there was almost breathtaking and showed how powerful of an actor Zemo (I mean in-universe Zemo) is to make it seem like he was really selling a person (while he of course knew he was lying). If he can act this, he can act everything.

    I know of course that that makes it harder to convince people that he is a criminal mastermind, because he understates himself so much, but to me that is the whole point of the character. You have to look twice to see the danger you're in. And I thought it was done marvelously.

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