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  1. #1141
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    You've got a weird view of family. Bucky's view tends to include his closest friend being his brother. Their relationship has been quite like siblings for a while now. I'm not saying he's literally a part of that family, but that's a group he clearly feels comfortable with, playing with the kids, flirting with Sam's sister. I'm not saying he shouldn't keep looking for love, but the entire point of that final scene was to show he'd found some peace and was enjoying life with the people he was closest to now that Steve is gone.
    It's not that different from some scenes earlier in the show, though. It doesn't present itself as growth because of those earlier scenes; it's a space Bucky feels safe in, but it's not helping him to self-realize.

    There's some hints of an approach like the AlAnon 12 steps to Bucky's therapy; he'd have been working through steps 8 and 9 in the film, finally wrapping up #9 at the end there. That's essentially where the damage you've caused is repaired, but that's the basis for starting to actually move forward. That's basically Step 11; if we skip the "through God" stuff, Step 11 is all about figuring out what your path forward in life should be. The show spent its six episodes demonstrating over and over that Bucky didn't know what that path should be, and I don't agree that the family scene shows us he's figured that out. He appears happy, but as someone who's struggled with depression, it's really pretty damned normal to look and act happy, to be laughing and carrying on, when you're hurting deeply inside.

    I really can't accept "I ruined by only friend's life by telling him I'm the guy who murdered his son, and now everything is awesome!" That's what the show kind of tries to sell, and I don't believe that to be Bucky's internal monologue, not for a second. Not with the decades of self-hatred they clearly indicated he's going through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    I know of course that that makes it harder to convince people that he is a criminal mastermind, because he understates himself so much, but to me that is the whole point of the character. You have to look twice to see the danger you're in. And I thought it was done marvelously.
    I think one of the most-telling scenes with Zemo is that last shot of him on The Raft.

    Dude looks peaceful and happy. Sure doesn't look like things didn't go according to at least some of his plan.


  2. #1142
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's not that different from some scenes earlier in the show, though. It doesn't present itself as growth because of those earlier scenes; it's a space Bucky feels safe in, but it's not helping him to self-realize.

    There's some hints of an approach like the AlAnon 12 steps to Bucky's therapy; he'd have been working through steps 8 and 9 in the film, finally wrapping up #9 at the end there. That's essentially where the damage you've caused is repaired, but that's the basis for starting to actually move forward. That's basically Step 11; if we skip the "through God" stuff, Step 11 is all about figuring out what your path forward in life should be. The show spent its six episodes demonstrating over and over that Bucky didn't know what that path should be, and I don't agree that the family scene shows us he's figured that out. He appears happy, but as someone who's struggled with depression, it's really pretty damned normal to look and act happy, to be laughing and carrying on, when you're hurting deeply inside.

    I really can't accept "I ruined by only friend's life by telling him I'm the guy who murdered his son, and now everything is awesome!" That's what the show kind of tries to sell, and I don't believe that to be Bucky's internal monologue, not for a second. Not with the decades of self-hatred they clearly indicated he's going through.

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    I think one of the most-telling scenes with Zemo is that last shot of him on The Raft.

    Dude looks peaceful and happy. Sure doesn't look like things didn't go according to at least some of his plan.
    Just like when in Civil War he was told that his plans failed and he smiled happily saying 'did they?' (or something like that) while being locked up in a really uncomfortable looking cage. ^^


    One more thing I thought of is all the people blaming Bucky for breaking out Zemo, when it was made clear that Zemo already had that card to break out, he just lacked the motivation. Bucky provided the opportunity, because he needed him right then and there, but Zemo already had the means. But no one even thinks of that possibility, because Zemo is locked up safely in a high security prison.
    I just love that kind of trickery stuff and misdirection

  3. #1143

  4. #1144
    So pretty underwhelming show, imo, and not that impressed with the ending.

    Rating this a 4/10
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    Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten. -G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman

  5. #1145
    Was pretty boring throughout no matter what other people thought, if they liked it good for them, for me it was just boring and predictable, its really just an elongated origin story for sam being captain america now, which some wiill/do love but while i do not dislike the character this show did not make me like him.

  6. #1146
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    A good analysis and I almost agreed until I remembered The Dark Knight trilogy. It is possible to do non-super powered heroes and make them interesting if the characters are interesting enough. Sam's a boy scout with wings who will monologue long enough if no one will interrupt and it sounds patriotic or progressive, but in the real world it just sounds like babble. I noticed one thing. My favorite episodes (4 and 5) featured Zemo heavily. Zemo and Walker (before he became 2-dimensionally bad.) This episode lacked Zemo who was easily the most interesting character on this show.

    Yeah, Sam is boring. It's not a non-super thing. It's a Falcon thing.

    Yeah I accepted this is just the character when it's just Falcon. I mean, It's Falcon.

    But him being "Captain America" and being that far off what Steve Rodgers was just feels bad to me.

  7. #1147
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    A good analysis and I almost agreed until I remembered The Dark Knight trilogy. It is possible to do non-super powered heroes and make them interesting if the characters are interesting enough. Sam's a boy scout with wings who will monologue long enough if no one will interrupt and it sounds patriotic or progressive, but in the real world it just sounds like babble. I noticed one thing. My favorite episodes (4 and 5) featured Zemo heavily. Zemo and Walker (before he became 2-dimensionally bad.) This episode lacked Zemo who was easily the most interesting character on this show.

    Yeah, Sam is boring. It's not a non-super thing. It's a Falcon thing.
    You can say the same about Iron Man. He’s just a regular guy in a powerful suit, similar to Falcon, but Iron Man is actually an interesting and entertaining character, made better with an actor that was perfect for the role. His Marvel movies are some of the best.

    Sam was always a boring character, which was only reinforced with this series. I had hopes with the first episode but they just kept failing. I don’t think we’ll get a Captain America that does Evans justice. He, like Downey, made that role.

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    Ugh, and that speech Sam made.... holy hell... it was terrible.
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    Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten. -G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman

  8. #1148
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    You can say the same about Iron Man. He’s just a regular guy in a powerful suit, similar to Falcon, but Iron Man is actually an interesting and entertaining character, made better with an actor that was perfect for the role. His Marvel movies are some of the best.

    Sam was always a boring character, which was only reinforced with this series. I had hopes with the first episode but they just kept failing. I don’t think we’ll get a Captain America that does Evans justice. He, like Downey, made that role.

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    Ugh, and that speech Sam made.... holy hell... it was terrible.
    What's boring about a guy that got hired because he was jogging outside landmark American buildings and tells senators to do better
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  9. #1149
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    What's boring about a guy that got hired because he was jogging outside landmark American buildings and tells senators to do better
    Disney better really think about who the next Iron Man will be—if there will be one—cause I’m greatly disappointed with the new Captain America. I can’t even see myself watching any movies that are made with Sam. He’s just so underwhelming and lacks presence.

    Ugh.... and don’t even get me started on Bucky. They did him wrong in this series.
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    Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten. -G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman

  10. #1150
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Disney better really think about who the next Iron Man will be—if there will be one—cause I’m greatly disappointed with the new Captain America. I can’t even see myself watching any movies that are made with Sam. He’s just so underwhelming and lacks presence.

    Ugh.... and don’t even get me started on Bucky. They did him wrong in this series.
    They need more interesting stories to work with.

    They have all these amazing actors and they do next to nothing with them except for a few exceptions like Jon Favarou with Robert Downey Jr and the Russo's work with Evans on Cap.

    Its hard to pull off the heroic stoic type and make it interesting. Somehow Evan's pulled it off with the help of the Russo's giving him a bit more edge and not being a total goody good. But anthony mackie is no chris evans
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  11. #1151
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    But anthony mackie is no chris evans
    That’s for damn sure. What a shame...
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    Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten. -G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman

  12. #1152
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    You can say the same about Iron Man. He’s just a regular guy in a powerful suit, similar to Falcon, but Iron Man is actually an interesting and entertaining character, made better with an actor that was perfect for the role. His Marvel movies are some of the best.

    Sam was always a boring character, which was only reinforced with this series. I had hopes with the first episode but they just kept failing. I don’t think we’ll get a Captain America that does Evans justice. He, like Downey, made that role.

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    Ugh, and that speech Sam made.... holy hell... it was terrible.
    To each their own of course, but I've got to say - in the comics I CANNOT stand Falcon OR Captain America. In the MCU, I love both.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    But anthony mackie is no chris evans
    While true, why would we want just more of the same? New Cap, new style/approach/etc.

    Evans was absolutely fantastic and I will miss him in the role, but I look forward to seeing where Mackie (and the MCU of course) goes with the character from here.

  13. #1153
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    To each their own of course, but I've got to say - in the comics I CANNOT stand Falcon OR Captain America. In the MCU, I love both.



    While true, why would we want just more of the same? New Cap, new style/approach/etc.

    Evans was absolutely fantastic and I will miss him in the role, but I look forward to seeing where Mackie (and the MCU of course) goes with the character from here.
    Well they need to ditch the pity party themes imo.

    Perfect guy battling racism is quite boring. I'd like to see some personality coming from the character not just a trope

    Ironman had the womanising and Evan's had the "F you government" to give them some much needed spice
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  14. #1154
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Well they need to ditch the pity party themes imo.

    Perfect guy battling racism is quite boring. I'd like to see some personality coming from the character not just a trope

    Ironman had the womanising and Evan's had the "F you government" to give them some much needed spice
    You think Evans's "F you government" was an actual theme/growth or interesting? It was just him holding to his own character already. It was an extension of his own patriotism, because what the "government" was doing was fundamentally anti-American. And it was just reinforced when they found out the U.S. Government was basically being run by HYDRA.

    And they instantly were back at Avengers HQ by Infinity War. They basically just erased the "interesting character" they made in Civil War, post Civil War. And they were all living at HQ post-Snap.

    Evans was by far the most boring character of the Avengers who only got slightly less boring when he stopped chiding people for swearing.

    Oh, and Anthony Mackie is a great fucking actor, idk what y'all are on about. Captain America is just a boy scout character, which will always be somewhat dull.

  15. #1155
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    You think Evans's "F you government" was an actual theme/growth or interesting? It was just him holding to his own character already. It was an extension of his own patriotism, because what the "government" was doing was fundamentally anti-American. And it was just reinforced when they found out the U.S. Government was basically being run by HYDRA.

    And they instantly were back at Avengers HQ by Infinity War. They basically just erased the "interesting character" they made in Civil War, post Civil War. And they were all living at HQ post-Snap.

    Evans was by far the most boring character of the Avengers who only got slightly less boring when he stopped chiding people for swearing.

    Oh, and Anthony Mackie is a great fucking actor, idk what y'all are on about. Captain America is just a boy scout character, which will always be somewhat dull.
    Strongly disagree with simplifying steve rogers cap america as just "anti government because they are anti american"

    Last I checked america dont just particpate in insititutes like nato and UN but actually found them half the time. The idea of the "sokovia accords" around civil war time was interesting. Because sometimes just agreeing with the collective can put you in difficult situations, that is a very current world theme that is interesting. Because both sides can be right instead of something like racism which is obviously bad and do we really need people in capes fixing those issues? I prefer it when that stuff is hinted subtly rather than straight story themes
    Last edited by RobertoCarlos; 2021-04-26 at 01:12 AM.
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  16. #1156
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Strongly disagree with simplifying steve rogers cap america as just "anti government because they are anti american"

    Last I checked america dont just particpate in insititutes like nato and UN but actually found them half the time. The idea of the "sokovia accords" around civil war time was interesting. Because sometimes just agreeing with the collective can put you in difficult situations, that is a very current world theme that is interesting. Because both sides can be right instead of something like racism which is obviously bad and do we really need people in capes fixing those issues? I prefer it when that stuff is hinted subtly rather than straight story themes
    Except it's naive (at best) to expect a black man taking on the mantle of Captain America to not have racism be a significant aspect of the story.

    And the Sokovia Accords weren't terribly interesting. Every plot point that pushes to the confrontations has pretty much nothing to do with the accords and everything to do with Zemo and Steve tossing out everything in the name of saving his friend. The accords give us two differing ideologies, but that conflict is barely explored. It's just how they justify who is on which side of the airplane fight (kind of, since Spider-man probably knew absolutely nothing about them).

    Regarding Steve - if he was really supposed to be F the government, it should have been him vs. SHIELD in Winter Soldier and not him vs Hydra. Him not signing the accords in Civil War maybe hints at him being "F the government" but it's nowhere near potent enough to suggest that was his shtick.

  17. #1157
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Strongly disagree with simplifying steve rogers cap american as just "anti government because they are anti american"

    Last I checked america dont just particpate in insititutes like nato and UN but actually found them half the time. The idea of the "sokovia accords" around civil war time was interesting. Because sometimes just agreeing with the collective can put you in difficult situations, that is a very current world theme that is interesting. Because both sides can be right instead of something like racism which is obviously bad and do we really need people in capes fixing those issues? I prefer it when that stuff is hinted subtly rather than straight story themes
    Steve Rogers' whole schtick was summed up as "stands for what the USA claims to stand for, rather than what it actually stands for in practice". That was it. The whole thing. Was true in the '40s, which is why they tried to make him a propaganda tool and he broke out of that to actually help people and do good things. Was true in the modern era, when SHIELD turned out to be HYDRA and when the US government got a little faschy with the Sokovia Accords. Steve was the same guy in both eras, the only real change over time was that he was more experienced and less shocked by the discordance of the what-it-should-be that he represented, and the what-it-actually-was.

    That's, like, the entire point of Walker, who's the perfect walking embodiment of the US-that-actually-is.

    Also, no the USA did not frickin' "found NATO and the UN". That's some weird-ass jingoistic propaganda nonsense you folks fed yourselves. Those are alliances of member states. Each founding member state is as much a "founder" as the USA is. And the USA wasn't even a part of the League of Nations, the UN's precursor, at all.

    Also, literally nothing about this series made Sam Wilson out to be "fighting racism". At best, he's not giving a fuck about what racists think about him taking up the mantle. That's as far as that went. It's a weird fucking take from some of you to think Sam Wilson's all about racism, when his big speech was just echoing principles that Steve would've supported himself. The one big change in character is that Sam's clearly willing to speak truth to power, unlike Steve Rogers, who just quietly walked away from the table to do whatever he felt was right. And that's a positive move. It was a weak point for Steve, because he mostly just considered it from his own personal perspective and what he was going to try and do, not trying to affect global politics by speaking truth to power when it's needed.


  18. #1158
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Steve Rogers' whole schtick was summed up as "stands for what the USA claims to stand for, rather than what it actually stands for in practice". That was it. The whole thing. Was true in the '40s, which is why they tried to make him a propaganda tool and he broke out of that to actually help people and do good things. Was true in the modern era, when SHIELD turned out to be HYDRA and when the US government got a little faschy with the Sokovia Accords. Steve was the same guy in both eras, the only real change over time was that he was more experienced and less shocked by the discordance of the what-it-should-be that he represented, and the what-it-actually-was.

    That's, like, the entire point of Walker, who's the perfect walking embodiment of the US-that-actually-is.

    Also, no the USA did not frickin' "found NATO and the UN". That's some weird-ass jingoistic propaganda nonsense you folks fed yourselves. Those are alliances of member states. Each founding member state is as much a "founder" as the USA is. And the USA wasn't even a part of the League of Nations, the UN's precursor, at all.

    Also, literally nothing about this series made Sam Wilson out to be "fighting racism". At best, he's not giving a fuck about what racists think about him taking up the mantle. That's as far as that went. It's a weird fucking take from some of you to think Sam Wilson's all about racism, when his big speech was just echoing principles that Steve would've supported himself. The one big change in character is that Sam's clearly willing to speak truth to power, unlike Steve Rogers, who just quietly walked away from the table to do whatever he felt was right. And that's a positive move. It was a weak point for Steve, because he mostly just considered it from his own personal perspective and what he was going to try and do, not trying to affect global politics by speaking truth to power when it's needed.
    The people who find Sam less interesting than Steve are... interesting. And then I go back and see them complaining about too much wokeness and it begins to make sense.

  19. #1159
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Oh, and Anthony Mackie is a great fucking actor, idk what y'all are on about. Captain America is just a boy scout character, which will always be somewhat dull.
    He’s really not. I’ve seen him in 2 movies outside of Marvel, cause he’s just not that popular of an actor, and he wasn’t the greatest. Chris Evans, on the other hand, he can act.
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    Fairy tales are more than true – not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten. -G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman

  20. #1160
    My theory.......

    I think Thunderbolt Ross is actually the Power Broker and that would have been teed up by the Black Widow movie. Since that movie was delayed due to covid, showing him as the power broker in this show would have spoiled that turn in BW.

    I think the whole point of this show and BW was to set up the Thunderbolts.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

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