{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[tyrlaan]

Strongly disagree with simplifying steve rogers cap america as just "anti government because they are anti american"

Last I checked america dont just particpate in insititutes like nato and UN but actually found them half the time. The idea of the "sokovia accords" around civil war time was interesting. Because sometimes just agreeing with the collective can put you in difficult situations, that is a very current world theme that is interesting. Because both sides can be right instead of something like racism which is obviously bad and do we really need people in capes fixing those issues? I prefer it when that stuff is hinted subtly rather than straight story themes

Except it's naive (at best) to expect a black man taking on the mantle of Captain America to not have racism be a significant aspect of the story.

And the Sokovia Accords weren't terribly interesting. Every plot point that pushes to the confrontations has pretty much nothing to do with the accords and everything to do with Zemo and Steve tossing out everything in the name of saving his friend. The accords give us two differing ideologies, but that conflict is barely explored. It's just how they justify who is on which side of the airplane fight (kind of, since Spider-man probably knew absolutely nothing about them).

Regarding Steve - if he was really supposed to be F the government, it should have been him vs. SHIELD in Winter Soldier and not him vs Hydra. Him not signing the accords in Civil War maybe hints at him being "F the government" but it's nowhere near potent enough to suggest that was his shtick.

[Endus]

Strongly disagree with simplifying steve rogers cap american as just "anti government because they are anti american"

Last I checked america dont just particpate in insititutes like nato and UN but actually found them half the time. The idea of the "sokovia accords" around civil war time was interesting. Because sometimes just agreeing with the collective can put you in difficult situations, that is a very current world theme that is interesting. Because both sides can be right instead of something like racism which is obviously bad and do we really need people in capes fixing those issues? I prefer it when that stuff is hinted subtly rather than straight story themes

Steve Rogers' whole schtick was summed up as "stands for what the USA claims to stand for, rather than what it actually stands for in practice". That was it. The whole thing. Was true in the '40s, which is why they tried to make him a propaganda tool and he broke out of that to actually help people and do good things. Was true in the modern era, when SHIELD turned out to be HYDRA and when the US government got a little faschy with the Sokovia Accords. Steve was the same guy in both eras, the only real change over time was that he was more experienced and less shocked by the discordance of the what-it-should-be that he represented, and the what-it-actually-was.

That's, like, the entire point of Walker, who's the perfect walking embodiment of the US-that-actually-is.

Also, no the USA did not frickin' "found NATO and the UN". That's some weird-ass jingoistic propaganda nonsense you folks fed yourselves. Those are alliances of member states. Each founding member state is as much a "founder" as the USA is. And the USA wasn't even a part of the League of Nations, the UN's precursor, at all.

Also, literally nothing about this series made Sam Wilson out to be "fighting racism". At best, he's not giving a fuck about what racists think about him taking up the mantle. That's as far as that went. It's a weird fucking take from some of you to think Sam Wilson's all about racism, when his big speech was just echoing principles that Steve would've supported himself. The one big change in character is that Sam's clearly willing to speak truth to power, unlike Steve Rogers, who just quietly walked away from the table to do whatever he felt was right. And that's a positive move. It was a weak point for Steve, because he mostly just considered it from his own personal perspective and what he was going to try and do, not trying to affect global politics by speaking truth to power when it's needed.

[Bodakane]

My theory.......

I think Thunderbolt Ross is actually the Power Broker and that would have been teed up by the Black Widow movie. Since that movie was delayed due to covid, showing him as the power broker in this show would have spoiled that turn in BW.

I think the whole point of this show and BW was to set up the Thunderbolts.

[eschatological]

He’s really not. I’ve seen him in 2 movies outside of Marvel, cause he’s just not that popular of an actor, and he wasn’t the greatest. Chris Evans, on the other hand, he can act.

Anthony Mackie:
8 Mile
The Hurt Locker
Brother to Brother
Million Dollar Baby
We Are Marshall
The Hate U Give

Those are just the movies I can remember him from, minus the Marvel films, nowhere near his full catalogue. I also think he was good in the 2nd season of Altered Carbon, which, hmmm, the same people on this forum seemed to dislike over Joel Kinnaman, a dude known for one facial expression that he's been doing since The Killing.

Chris Evans:
Not another Teen Movie
the two Fantastic Four movies
Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
Snowpiercer

These are the Chris Evans movies I remember that didn't involve the Marvel movies. All of them trash except Scott Pilgrim.

Edit: My bad, I should give credit to Evans for Knives Out, a fucking excellent movie in which he was fucking excellent, which no one on this forum acknowledges because god forbid we question the hot take that "Rian Johnson is a trash director" prevalent here.

[Adamas102]

Anthony Mackie:
8 Mile
The Hurt Locker
Brother to Brother
Million Dollar Baby
We Are Marshall
The Hate U Give

Those are just the movies I can remember him from, minus the Marvel films, nowhere near his full catalogue. I also think he was good in the 2nd season of Altered Carbon, which, hmmm, the same people on this forum seemed to dislike over Joel Kinnaman, a dude known for one facial expression that he's been doing since The Killing.

Chris Evans:
Not another Teen Movie
the two Fantastic Four movies
Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
Snowpiercer

These are the Chris Evans movies I remember that didn't involve the Marvel movies. All of them trash except Scott Pilgrim.

Edit: My bad, I should give credit to Evans for Knives Out, a fucking excellent movie in which he was fucking excellent, which no one on this forum acknowledges because god forbid we question the hot take that "Rian Johnson is a trash director" prevalent here.

Lets be honest, every post Winter Blossom makes (in this thread at least) pretty much solidifies the fact that they don't know what they're talking about.

That being said, Snowpiercer was not trash and Evans did a pretty good job in it. Red Sea and Puncture were fairly good as well. Either way, Mackie definitely has far more solid movies under his belt.

[Egomaniac]

Unless he's gonna start dating Sam's sister in a marriage-path kinda way, he's just a friend who's tagging along with Sam, not a part of the family, however welcome he may be there.

Family is what you make for yourself. Unless you're going to say that Steve and Bucky weren't brothers because Steve didn't marry Bucky's sister...

[Illusions]

Steve should've married Bucky's sister and used her as a beard to have a shared family name so he can actually feel as if he married Bucky. Then they would've been a family.

(jokes-not jokes aside, I find the notion funny that Bucky doesn't find Sam's family as family. Have you not heard of Found Family tropes? He's clearly comfortable with them and they've also accepted him as shown by the end scenes. You can also consider friends as your family - you don't have to be biologically related (and neither are people who marry each other biologically related, but are still regarded and considered as family) for that.

[Endus]

Family is what you make for yourself. Unless you're going to say that Steve and Bucky weren't brothers because Steve didn't marry Bucky's sister...

What I'm saying is that Bucky's issue wasn't a lack of family. It was a lack of self-identity. He's spent the entire period up to now disavowing his previous identity as the Winter Soldier, and that's an era he's finally closed for good now, but it was the last thing he did in the final episode other than hanging with Sam's family.

They might be friendly and open with him, but that's borrowing Sam's identity, in psychological terms (not that he's literally putting on a Sam Wilson mask, but that he's borrowing from/sharing in Sam's life rather than being secure in his own identity).

I've had to live through extended family members drinking themselves to death. When they had a wife and kids, and an extended family who would absolutely have been there for them. "Family" wasn't enough to solve their inner demons, and laughing and carrying on at a big family gathering didn't mean he wasn't struggling with alcoholism. One good day is not a demonstration that Bucky is "fine now".

- - - Updated - - -

Steve should've married Bucky's sister and used her as a beard to have a shared family name so he can actually feel as if he married Bucky. Then they would've been a family.

(jokes-not jokes aside, I find the notion funny that Bucky doesn't find Sam's family as family. Have you not heard of Found Family tropes? He's clearly comfortable with them and they've also accepted him as shown by the end scenes. You can also consider friends as your family - you don't have to be biologically related (and neither are people who marry each other biologically related, but are still regarded and considered as family) for that.

But realistically, we've only seen Bucky hanging out with Sam's family a couple of times.

I love found family as a trope, but it takes more than a couple good days for that kind of dynamic to exist. I'm not arguing Bucky can't reach that level with Sam's family, I'm arguing two things;

A> we don't see that kind of dynamic, in the show. I've been as close as that with the families of multiple friends. Closer, really; I've had friends stay with us for a couple months, and stayed with a friend's family for a month myself, under various circumstances. Those situations are what I'd say qualify, and we only really see Bucky hanging out for a couple specific family days, in the show. I'm not opposed to the potential, just not seeing it in the show.

B> Found family wouldn't settle Bucky's issues. He doesn't have much of a support network, and Sam and his family could provide that, but that's a base to build from, not a fix for Bucky's lack of self-identity. He's scrubbed the legacy of the Winter Soldier out, but he hasn't built anything new in its place.

[Egomaniac]

What I'm saying is that Bucky's issue wasn't a lack of family. It was a lack of self-identity. He's spent the entire period up to now disavowing his previous identity as the Winter Soldier, and that's an era he's finally closed for good now, but it was the last thing he did in the final episode other than hanging with Sam's family.

They might be friendly and open with him, but that's borrowing Sam's identity, in psychological terms (not that he's literally putting on a Sam Wilson mask, but that he's borrowing from/sharing in Sam's life rather than being secure in his own identity).

I've had to live through extended family members drinking themselves to death. When they had a wife and kids, and an extended family who would absolutely have been there for them. "Family" wasn't enough to solve their inner demons, and laughing and carrying on at a big family gathering didn't mean he wasn't struggling with alcoholism. One good day is not a demonstration that Bucky is "fine now".

I didn't say anything about Bucky being "fine now" or that being a part of Sam's family would magically solve his PTSD. I'm not even saying that Bucky is part of Sam's family.

I was referring to your position that Sam and Bucky can't be brothers unless Bucky marries Sam's sister. Which is nonsense.

[Endus]

I didn't say anything about Bucky being "fine now" or that being a part of Sam's family would magically solve his PTSD. I'm not even saying that Bucky is part of Sam's family.

I was referring to your position that Sam and Bucky can't be brothers unless Bucky marries Sam's sister. Which is nonsense.

That wasn't really what I was trying to say, just that we really only see Bucky with Sam's family on two separate days; one working on the boat before Sam's sister kicks them out, and then the family event at the very end.

To me, that says "friend that's welcome to visit with family" and nothing more. Not that he's been "adopted" as a part of the family in any appreciable sense. Not yet, not based on what we've seen in the show, at least.

The bit about Sam's sister was just a clumsy attempt to argue that if their relationship had bumped up past just flirting to annoy Sam, that could've been a reason to think there was something deeper overall. Just an example of one kind of thing. Not that the only way to get "adopted" by someone's family is via romantic entanglement.

[RobertoCarlos]

Anthony Mackie:
8 Mile
The Hurt Locker
Brother to Brother
Million Dollar Baby
We Are Marshall
The Hate U Give

Those are just the movies I can remember him from, minus the Marvel films, nowhere near his full catalogue. I also think he was good in the 2nd season of Altered Carbon, which, hmmm, the same people on this forum seemed to dislike over Joel Kinnaman, a dude known for one facial expression that he's been doing since The Killing.

Chris Evans:
Not another Teen Movie
the two Fantastic Four movies
Scott Pilgrim vs. the World
Snowpiercer

These are the Chris Evans movies I remember that didn't involve the Marvel movies. All of them trash except Scott Pilgrim.

Edit: My bad, I should give credit to Evans for Knives Out, a fucking excellent movie in which he was fucking excellent, which no one on this forum acknowledges because god forbid we question the hot take that "Rian Johnson is a trash director" prevalent here.

Ive only seen him in 8 mile and hurt locker outside of playing falcon and he was out shinned by eminem and brittany murphy in 8 mile and out shinned by jeremy renner in hurt locker. Certainly not a scene stealer thats for sure

[bmjclark]

The people who find Sam less interesting than Steve are... interesting. And then I go back and see them complaining about too much wokeness and it begins to make sense.

Honestly, I think its fair to say neither character is overly interesting. I think there's a lot of nostalgia around Steve so his replacement was never going to be super well received. I don't think it's just the anti woke crowd that doesn't care for him (though there's certainly some of that going around in this thread)

[tyrlaan]

Ive only seen him in 8 mile and hurt locker outside of playing falcon and he was out shinned by eminem and brittany murphy in 8 mile and out shinned by jeremy renner in hurt locker. Certainly not a scene stealer thats for sure

I guess enjoy hating the new Captain America then.

I won't be joining you since I like Mackie, but knock yourself out.

[qwerty123456]

The people who find Sam less interesting than Steve are... interesting. And then I go back and see them complaining about too much wokeness and it begins to make sense.

Sam is a good modern American and becomes a traitor because he really likes Steve and trusts him. Steve was a good person out of place and time who had to fight against the very government he was willing to fight and die for because he believes its the right thing to do. Steve then gives up the life he idolized (being a hero/soldier) in order to get the life he truly wants with Peggy. Sam still likes Steve and instead of realizing he can be his own symbol decides to do what Steve asked of him.

Anthony Mackie:
8 Mile
The Hurt Locker
Brother to Brother
Million Dollar Baby
We Are Marshall
The Hate U Give

I haven't seen any of the movies you mentioned for Anthony Mackie so I'll add my favorite one I remember him in: The Adjustment Bureau. He was amazing in that and its a great movie imo.

[RobertoCarlos]

I guess enjoy hating the new Captain America then.

I won't be joining you since I like Mackie, but knock yourself out.

I'm not hating on him. It was always gonna be hard to replace evans and downie.

And with the loss of chadwick they also lost black panthar.

Thats a lot of leading men gone and no one is really stepping up to replace them.

Im hoping Dr Strange can but his first film was incredibly lack luster

[tyrlaan]

I'm not hating on him. It was always gonna be hard to replace evans and downie.

And with the loss of chadwick they also lost black panthar.

Thats a lot of leading men gone and no one is really stepping up to replace them.

Im hoping Dr Strange can but his first film was incredibly lack luster

Cumberbatch is well cast, but I agree he needs a MUCH better second film to pull him up to a notably higher echelon.

I'm not convinced there's necessarily a big problem here though. I mean maybe having a new Downey would let Marvel get away with a few Thor 2s or something, so without a leading man/woman they need to be on their game more consistently.

[RobertoCarlos]

Cumberbatch is well cast, but I agree he needs a MUCH better second film to pull him up to a notably higher echelon.

I'm not convinced there's necessarily a big problem here though. I mean maybe having a new Downey would let Marvel get away with a few Thor 2s or something, so without a leading man/woman they need to be on their game more consistently.

Well hopefully they dont waste Mahershala Ali as Blade and just make some PG13 action with no blood crap.

Because that guy can fooking act, so hopefully he gets some good material

[tyrlaan]

Yeah, I wasn’t a fan of the 1st Doctor Strange movie. He seems like a really interesting character but I feel like Marvel has really underpowered him.

He was literally learning how to use magic as the movie progressed, so that feels like a really weird criticism. I could criticize a lot in that movie, but that would not be on the list.

- - - Updated - - -

Well hopefully they dont waste Mahershala Ali as Blade and make some PG13 action with no blood crap.

Because that guy can fooking act, so hopefully he gets some good material

Agree, he's amazing.

And we have Feige on record saying Deadpool 3 will be rated R, so it's within reason Blade will be treated okay.

[RobertoCarlos]

Not his movie—in the 2 Avengers movies. Like that one scene where he was knocked out and being flown around by his cape... I feel like they do that shit on purpose so they have an excuse for why he couldn’t use his powers, since he could probably take control of the entire situation.

It’s annoying. They did that shit to the Hulk as well.

Its sadly a bit of a trope thats hard to get away from with superheroes.

Wanda being in prison because she tried saving a lot of people and some others died in a building.

Vision being a punching bag when he can phase into the ground and could eye beam people.

Captain Marvel being off planet because "other planets need help too"

Thor being fat because fat jokes are hilarious right.

DC also do it with Superman and give it the similar treatment as Cap Marvel "Hes off planet so its just us rag tag guys today"

[Egomaniac]

Yep. If you have to nerf your heroes because of the villains, you need a better story.

None of that is "nerfing" anyone

Wanda was able to leave as soon as she decided she wanted to.

Vision took a spear in the chest from an ambush.

Captain Marvel being off-planet was a way to avoid nerfing her.

Thor being fat didn't make him any less powerful.