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  1. #1301
    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    Except your theory falls apart because she literally hooked a supervillian with information and resources to assassinate a hero (and a friend of hers). She also literally built a team of super terrorists, of which she immediately lost control over. She also straight-up had one of her own assassinated (Selby), and is plotting to steal from the government to fund even more criminals, terrorists, and supervillians.

    The Guardians of the Galaxy that isn't.
    It’s a small plot point that can be dealt with later. The heelturn is surprising but things shouldn’t always work out as expected. I can wait for the next show and/or movie for explanations.

    Velantina’s character isn’t really like the comics. She doesn’t appear to be a member of SHIELD so her motivations are pretty murky.

  2. #1302
    yeah, I refuse to suggest Sharon's storyline is anything but bad. If she's trying to reproduce and sell super soldier serum, the last thing she would EVER do is send Zemo to the only guy (who works for her already) who knows how to make it. Pardon on the line, or not.

    Like, it's literally mind-bogglingly stupid, and I don't know how to explain it away in a way where she's actually the Power Broker and not serving some other interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Holy shit I just realised he's Clarence.
    And he lives at home with both parents.

  3. #1303
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    Except your theory falls apart because she literally hooked a supervillian with information and resources to assassinate a hero (and a friend of hers).
    The only superpowered individuals you could be talking about are Karli and the Flagsmashers, including Batroc. Who didn't get superpowers until after they betrayed and stole from Sharon. Where was she feeding them intel and resources, other than what they stole from her?

    She also literally built a team of super terrorists, of which she immediately lost control over.
    They weren't terrorists until AFTER they betrayed Sharon and stole from her.

    She also straight-up had one of her own assassinated (Selby), and is plotting to steal from the government to fund even more criminals, terrorists, and supervillians.
    Is Hawkeye a hero, or a villain?

    Because he's been assassinating all kinds of people during the time between the Snap and the return.

    I'm not suggesting Sharon's heroic. I'm suggesting she may have justified her actions to herself.

    And really, betraying the government that she's already canonically betrayed once is . . . totally in character, really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    yeah, I refuse to suggest Sharon's storyline is anything but bad. If she's trying to reproduce and sell super soldier serum, the last thing she would EVER do is send Zemo to the only guy (who works for her already) who knows how to make it. Pardon on the line, or not.

    Like, it's literally mind-bogglingly stupid, and I don't know how to explain it away in a way where she's actually the Power Broker and not serving some other interest.
    The only way that part makes sense to me is if Sharon, as the Power Broker, was monitoring the guy and, as he's already produced 20 vials of serum (something like that, anyway), she knows the process works, and she's got the process, so she doesn't need him any more. Knowing Zemo, he'll wrap up that loose end for her. And even if he hadn't, she'd set up a guy with an RPG to make sure the scientist didn't survive. Who knows, maybe that scientist was part of how Karli got her hands on serum in the first place, and Sharon's repaying that betrayal.

    There's plenty of possible explanations. What's frustrating (and I'll definitely acknowledge it is) is that we're not actually offered any explanations at all. The only ones Sharon offers are obviously lies.

  4. #1304
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The only superpowered individuals you could be talking about are Karli and the Flagsmashers, including Batroc. Who didn't get superpowers until after they betrayed and stole from Sharon. Where was she feeding them intel and resources, other than what they stole from her?
    Try reading what was written, not what you want to twist the words into meaning. I said supervillian, not superpowered person. She specifically faciliated Batroc's attempt to murder Falcon. Downright promised it to him.

    They weren't terrorists until AFTER they betrayed Sharon and stole from her.
    Congratulations on figuring that out. Completely irrelevant to what I was talking about, but congratulations nevertheless.

    Is Hawkeye a hero, or a villain?
    Anti-hero at worst.

    Because he's been assassinating all kinds of people during the time between the Snap and the return.
    None of them good guys.

    I'm not suggesting Sharon's heroic. I'm suggesting she may have justified her actions to herself.
    Yes, we heard about her justification. She was "wronged."

    The only way that part makes sense to me is if Sharon, as the Power Broker, was monitoring the guy and, as he's already produced 20 vials of serum (something like that, anyway), she knows the process works, and she's got the process, so she doesn't need him any more.
    I'm glad that works for you. Unfortunately for you, that's not what we were shown, told, or even hinted at. Her very last scene even said so directly, which is why she was so excited about getting the opportunity to rob SHIELD blind.

    There's plenty of possible explanations. What's frustrating (and I'll definitely acknowledge it is) is that we're not actually offered any explanations at all. The only ones Sharon offers are obviously lies.
    Only when she's telling them to the heroes. Not when she's basically talking to herself.

  5. #1305
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Something Wicked View Post
    None of them good guys.
    Not one person we see Sharon kill is even a neutral party, let alone a "good guy". They're all terrible people, and all posing a direct threat to someone at the time.

    I'm glad that works for you. Unfortunately for you, that's not what we were shown, told, or even hinted at. Her very last scene even said so directly, which is why she was so excited about getting the opportunity to rob SHIELD blind.
    SHIELD, the agency that was mostly HYDRA, that worked for the government who's been increasingly authoritarian wackadoodles and whom Sharon already canonically betrayed once already.

    Why is her plotting to rob SHIELD an automatically "evil" act?

  6. #1306
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post

    SHIELD, the agency that was mostly HYDRA, that worked for the government who's been increasingly authoritarian wackadoodles and whom Sharon already canonically betrayed once already.

    Why is her plotting to rob SHIELD an automatically "evil" act?
    Well, I have a theory that Sharon stealing SHIELD secrets is going to be a pretty big part of the "Armor Wars" series that Rhodey is going to be in.

    I also expect we might see a return of Justin Hammer there.

  7. #1307
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not one person we see Sharon kill is even a neutral party, let alone a "good guy". They're all terrible people, and all posing a direct threat to someone at the time.



    SHIELD, the agency that was mostly HYDRA, that worked for the government who's been increasingly authoritarian wackadoodles and whom Sharon already canonically betrayed once already.

    Why is her plotting to rob SHIELD an automatically "evil" act?
    Point of order, her previous position was with the CIA. It’s how she knew to recruit Nagel after the blip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Well, I have a theory that Sharon stealing SHIELD secrets is going to be a pretty big part of the "Armor Wars" series that Rhodey is going to be in.

    I also expect we might see a return of Justin Hammer there.
    Sharon works for the CIA.
    Last edited by Vegas82; 2021-04-28 at 03:18 AM.

  8. #1308
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Point of order, her previous position was with the CIA. It’s how she knew to recruit Nagel after the blip.

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    Sharon works for the CIA.
    Point of order, the term "Previous Position" can refer to any previous position.

  9. #1309
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Point of order, her previous position was with the CIA. It’s how she knew to recruit Nagel after the blip.

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    Sharon works for the CIA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Point of order, the term "Previous Position" can refer to any previous position.
    Yeah, that.

    Also, she clearly doesn't work for the CIA, and hasn't since she engaged in treason during Civil War. If she were undercover and the treason/lack of pardon was a cover, there would have been no big "here's your pardon" ceremony, because the disavowal would have never been real in the first place. That scene, where she was granted her pardon, is pretty darn concrete confirmation that she really was dropped by the US government completely in the aftermath of Civil War, disavowed and a wanted traitor.

  10. #1310
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Point of order, the term "Previous Position" can refer to any previous position.
    It CAN, but usually it would be used to refer to the job that person had before they lost it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Yeah, that.

    Also, she clearly doesn't work for the CIA, and hasn't since she engaged in treason during Civil War. If she were undercover and the treason/lack of pardon was a cover, there would have been no big "here's your pardon" ceremony, because the disavowal would have never been real in the first place. That scene, where she was granted her pardon, is pretty darn concrete confirmation that she really was dropped by the US government completely in the aftermath of Civil War, disavowed and a wanted traitor.
    She JUST accepted her previous position. The last one she had before going on the run after the events of CW. You know, the CIA job. Since we have no indication there’s a new SHIELD post-blip. If there were why would Woo still be FBI?

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    I was looking to see if they’d updated her official on screen profile on the Marvel site... she was snapped away apparently. Isn’t this show relatively soon post blip? Like, 6 months? Kinda quick to get set up as the power broker and all that. Apparently they were VERY close to a working serum before Thanos snapped.

  11. #1311
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    It CAN, but usually it would be used to refer to the job that person had before they lost it.

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    She JUST accepted her previous position. The last one she had before going on the run after the events of CW. You know, the CIA job. Since we have no indication there’s a new SHIELD post-blip. If there were why would Woo still be FBI?
    I mean, she's clearly talking about stealing "prototype weapons" and the like. Not really CIA territory, usually. I'll grant that SHIELD's potentially over, but SWORD is clearly around, and who knows what other shadowy alphabet agencies are in the mix.

    Also, they didn't offer her back her old job. They said her prior agency might even have openings she could seek out. Not really the same thing; she may use her connections to get herself into a more lucrative position from here.

    But my central point remains; the US government has repeatedly and nearly without exception done the wrong thing. They supported Hydra's survival and reconstruction within SHIELD, even if unaware. They supported the Sokovia Accords, which were authoritarian abuses of human rights. They're the ones who disavowed Carter and left her out to dry. And in this particular show, were the ones who experimented on Bradley and his fellow soldiers like animals, and who tried to repeat the same failures of the '40s by selecting Walker to be Captain America.

    The only real positive action by the US government in the entire MCU was letting Nick Fury create the Avengers. And that's more down to Fury, since he didn't exactly get a ton of support for the project until after he'd proven it a success in their first real outing.

    The US government, in the MCU, is more generally on the side of the villains of these stories. Hell, just look at the Iron Man villains, the primary ones at least; Stane, Hammer, and Killian. All three are tech moguls, all three are working on government weapons contracts (at least, I definitely know Stane and Hammer were), and Tony's big origin moment was his recognition of the harm his collaborations with the US government had wreaked.

    This show was the first time the anti-US-government subthread has really become a primary thread, but it's a thread that's been deeply woven through almost all the MCU.

  12. #1312
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I mean, she's clearly talking about stealing "prototype weapons" and the like. Not really CIA territory, usually. I'll grant that SHIELD's potentially over, but SWORD is clearly around, and who knows what other shadowy alphabet agencies are in the mix.

    Also, they didn't offer her back her old job. They said her prior agency might even have openings she could seek out. Not really the same thing; she may use her connections to get herself into a more lucrative position from here.

    But my central point remains; the US government has repeatedly and nearly without exception done the wrong thing. They supported Hydra's survival and reconstruction within SHIELD, even if unaware. They supported the Sokovia Accords, which were authoritarian abuses of human rights. They're the ones who disavowed Carter and left her out to dry. And in this particular show, were the ones who experimented on Bradley and his fellow soldiers like animals, and who tried to repeat the same failures of the '40s by selecting Walker to be Captain America.

    The only real positive action by the US government in the entire MCU was letting Nick Fury create the Avengers. And that's more down to Fury, since he didn't exactly get a ton of support for the project until after he'd proven it a success in their first real outing.

    The US government, in the MCU, is more generally on the side of the villains of these stories. Hell, just look at the Iron Man villains, the primary ones at least; Stane, Hammer, and Killian. All three are tech moguls, all three are working on government weapons contracts (at least, I definitely know Stane and Hammer were), and Tony's big origin moment was his recognition of the harm his collaborations with the US government had wreaked.

    This show was the first time the anti-US-government subthread has really become a primary thread, but it's a thread that's been deeply woven through almost all the MCU.
    Yeah, she only poached the Super Soldier serum from a defunct CIA project she was privy to. Clearly that division was just working on steroids.

  13. #1313
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Read some shenanigans saying that Sharon was maybe talking with someone on Oscorp, that would explain the green smoke gadget they used on the guys and the "biological weapon" she used to kill the guy in the truck/car, the gadget that took so many punches from Bucky could be a reference to dr. octopus.



    Are you just parroting that now? based on the fucking movie, the 2008 movie, we are basing on that, the hulk in 2008 was stronger than the other versions of hulk, period.

    If you ask one more time "based on what" im gonna start assuming you are trolling

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    i always assumed he and others would have the super soldier powers, by being a descendant of a super soldier, cause you know, technically he does have the super soldier genes and blood on then already
    Nah, in the comics, he tries to play like he does have the serum in him until it's revealed he doesn't when he gets his ass handed to him. Then he eventually gets the serum via blood transfusion with his grandfather. Apparently it doesn't pass on unless I'm mistaken by any other person who has a serum and have children.
    Just don't reply to me. Please. If you can help it.

  14. #1314
    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    Nah, in the comics, he tries to play like he does have the serum in him until it's revealed he doesn't when he gets his ass handed to him. Then he eventually gets the serum via blood transfusion with his grandfather. Apparently it doesn't pass on unless I'm mistaken by any other person who has a serum and have children.
    In the Ultimates universe the serum passed on to children, the Ultimate Red Skull was the son of Steve Rogers.

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