{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[eschatological]

He's not the one that killed his friend though.

I think we should all note how the dude isn't remorseful in this episode at all either: he lies to both himself and Lemar's family about who actually killed him, because he needs to justify it to himself. And he tries to kill Sam in the first few minutes of this episode. Literally tries to kill the dude, and only failed because Bucky, who he thought was knocked out, tackled him.

[Depakote]

I think we should all note how the dude isn't remorseful in this episode at all either: he lies to both himself and Lemar's family about who actually killed him, because he needs to justify it to himself. And he tries to kill Sam in the first few minutes of this episode. Literally tries to kill the dude, and only failed because Bucky, who he thought was knocked out, tackled him.

Dude's being made into US Agent.
https://www.marvel.com/characters/u-s-agent

[Endus]

Dude's being made into US Agent.
https://www.marvel.com/characters/u-s-agent

And in this iteration of the character, US Agent is gonna be a Hydra asset. The lady who picked him up is Madam Hydra.

He is not a good guy.

[qwerty123456]

In what universe do you think Walker got "thrown under the bus"?

He murdered a guy. Who was trying to surrender. In broad daylight. While filmed by like 100 bystanders.

He didn't even get court-martialed. The US Government would have been entirely in the right to put Walker in a stockade for the rest of his natural life. Most likely, the Raft, since he's supered up and they'd need to contain him. Letting him just walk away? That's letting him off super lightly, and they explicitly state that outright in the show. He got a handshake and a "fare ye well" and was allowed to go off and live whatever life he'd choose to. He wasn't even dishonorably discharged. He got punished less than some soldiers who get drunk and do something stupid while on-duty.

What I mean is that they would have been ok with his actions. It's that he was filmed and so had to do something about it.

I think the whole show boils down to explaining why there will not ever be a new Captain America.

I think you might be right. But I'm curious how much Disney is going to expect people to know about the TV universe for its films. Like is white vision going to be a thing showing up right away in the actual films? If they destroy the shield or Sam doesn't have that are they going to explain in the films that or is going to be jarring for the people who only watch the films? Going to be real interesting to see how Multiverse of Madness deals with Wandavision.

The times between 1940 and 1950 really aren't that different. All wars are different...but WWII had much larger stakes. The kind of war you might want to have a bunch of Super Soldiers for.

Of course times were different.

And a black Super Soldier wouldn't have been a great propaganda device.

No a black super soldier wouldn't have been a great propaganda device because then the world would have known there were super soldiers. The reason they tried to get rid of them all was because they were "evidence".

They no longer had Isaiah by the time Steve was thawed out.

I know...... Steve Rodgers wasn't unthawed until much later meaning they couldn't have experimented on him anymore. They able to create a new super soldier and were able to use him to experiment on for decades. They didn't need to worry about unthawing Steve.

Which they could have just done with Isaiah. But instead they went much further.

Isaiah was a super soldier they didn't need anymore except to hopefully make more. And they already knew how effective they were recreating a serum from just Steve's blood so why on earth would you think they would just stop at his blood??

[eschatological]

I’m not arguing that it’s not important to the story to show those struggles... I think they just went too far with it in this episode. It was too much, imo.

What was too much? A black man, experimented on by the government, being bitter and not thinking much of the red, white and blue?

Cause that's part of our history. It's factual.

Isaiah also mentions the Red Tails, an all black squadron of fighter pilots, how they were heroes, and then came home to crosses burning on their lawns. That's not a a made up line. That actually happened. Hell, he didn't even mention how black wealth was robbed from these G.I.'s, who were eligible for the same benefits as white G.I.'s that built the American middle class post-war, yet were denied simply because they were black.

[Endus]

No a black super soldier wouldn't have been a great propaganda device because then the world would have known there were super soldiers. The reason they tried to get rid of them all was because they were "evidence".

And yet, they put Steve Rogers on posters and used him as a literal propaganda prop on exactly those grounds.

Steve was made a super soldier during WWII, in the '40s. Bradley was injected in the '50s, when super soldier serum had been a known "thing" for like a decade. They weren't keeping him and his fellow test subjects a secret because they were super soldiers. It was because they were black super soldiers. Who were used because black test subjects were considered expendable.

[eschatological]

And in this iteration of the character, US Agent is gonna be a Hydra asset. The lady who picked him up is Madam Hydra.

He is not a good guy.

It should also be noted, the "pure black" calling card is a sign of the Dark Avengers. So I feel like there'll be a hybrid Thunderbolts/Dark Avengers team including John Walker. It should also be noted the Raft where Zemo is headed, is headed up by General Thunderbolt Ross who's previously played SecDef in Civil War.

[Depakote]

And in this iteration of the character, US Agent is gonna be a Hydra asset. The lady who picked him up is Madam Hydra.

He is not a good guy.

Was curious as to who that was, thanks for the info
Also don't think his friend is really dead, may have been knocked unconscious but hydra picked him up like they did Bucky.

[qwerty123456]

And yet, they put Steve Rogers on posters and used him as a literal propaganda prop on exactly those grounds.

Steve was made a super soldier during WWII, in the '40s. Bradley was injected in the '50s, when super soldier serum had been a known "thing" for like a decade. They weren't keeping him and his fellow test subjects a secret because they were super soldiers. It was because they were black super soldiers. Who were used because black test subjects were considered expendable.

Propaganda was way more prominent for WWII. And it was a known thing that had disappeared because the dude that could make it and the only super soldier had both died. Also Steve had stopped a Nazi and saved a kid in public.

Also the whole premise of racists intentionally creating super soldiers from people they hate/dont like is kinda silly imo. I can understand a racist doing horrible experiments on someone and them accidentally getting superpowers but to intentionally create a better X because your somehow worried a white guy might die is pretty dumb. It's like deadpool where they somehow create an even more powerful version of wolverines regeneration and instead of using it on themselves to be rich immortal assholes they give it to some dipshit.

[Endus]

What was too much? A black man, experimented on by the government, being bitter and not thinking much of the red, white and blue?

Cause that's part of our history. It's factual.

Isaiah also mentions the Red Tails, an all black squadron of fighter pilots, how they were heroes, and then came home to crosses burning on their lawns. That's not a a made up line. That actually happened. Hell, he didn't even mention how black wealth was robbed from these G.I.'s, who were eligible for the same benefits as white G.I.'s that built the American middle class post-war, yet were denied simply because they were black.

And really, the reason it's hitting some people so hard to see it presented in "silly superhero stuff" is because that history has largely been suppressed and concealed through a coordinated propaganda and disinformation campaign, to ensure Americans don't have a proper understanding of their own history, not even recent history. An effort that's still ongoing, as you can tell by people being somehow shocked that this show talked about real things that actually happened.

[eschatological]

Basically the whole episode was about race. Like I said, it’s important to the story, I get it, but they went overboard with it.

How was it overboard? The story is literally about a black man struggling to accept his role as Captain America, which is literally been a symbol and propaganda piece for decades.

Like honestly, the fragility people express over people of color being seen and heard is hilarious and......kinda the point of the series. This is the same outrage expressed when Falcon took up the mantle of Captain America in the comics, nearly 20 years ago. Except you're couching it by saying "It's important........but it went overboard, and was woke." Like, Sam literally rejected the bitterness of Isaiah, and is looking to be a unifier. Jesus Christ.

[Endus]

Also the whole premise of racists intentionally creating super soldiers from people they hate/dont like is kinda silly imo. I can understand a racist doing horrible experiments on someone and them accidentally getting superpowers but to intentionally create a better X because your somehow worried a white guy might die is pretty dumb.

The experiments were with a drug so unstable it literally killed every candidate who took it except Isaiah Bradley. Not right away, but eventually. They were experimented on because they were seen as disposable; the equivalent of laboratory mice or chimpanzees. Which is why when it turned out Bradley actually survived, they didn't treat him like a human being, they locked him in a cage for thirty years and experimented on him.

Like, they say this, explicitly, in the show. It isn't remotely unclear.

- - - Updated - - -

How was it overboard? The story is literally about a black man struggling to accept his role as Captain America, which is literally been a symbol and propaganda piece for decades.

Like honestly, the fragility people express over people of color being seen and heard is hilarious and......kinda the point of the series. This is the same outrage expressed when Falcon took up the mantle of Captain America in the comics, nearly 20 years ago. Except you're couching it by saying "It's important........but it went overboard, and was woke." Like, Sam literally rejected the bitterness of Isaiah, and is looking to be a unifier. Jesus Christ.

"Okay, can the black voices shut up so we can hear more white-focused talk and stop being asked to understand how bad race relations in the USA are?"

This is a really fuckin' bad look people.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Of course times were different.

Not for a Black Man.

No a black super soldier wouldn't have been a great propaganda device because then the world would have known there were super soldiers. The reason they tried to get rid of them all was because they were "evidence".

If they would be great for propaganda....why keep them secret? If they were valuable...why not at least try to rescue them before "destroying the evidence"?

Why was Steve allowed to go free to galavant around Europe when Isaiah was held prisoner and forcibly experimented on?

I know...... Steve Rodgers wasn't unthawed until much later meaning they couldn't have experimented on him anymore. They able to create a new super soldier and were able to use him to experiment on for decades. They didn't need to worry about unthawing Steve.

They didn't have Steve to unthaw... but as soon as they did...he got to go on his merry way. Isaiah Bradley had to fake his death to escape from experimentation. Steve Rogers just had to be white.

Isaiah was a super soldier they didn't need anymore except to hopefully make more. And they already knew how effective they were recreating a serum from just Steve's blood so why on earth would you think they would just stop at his blood??

They weren't that effective at creating super soldiers though. Isaiah is the only one that survived... and not because they were all killed in battle. They were killed by the Serum.

Do you think it was just a coincidence that all that people that received their serum variants were black men?

Maybe you've heard of the Tuskagee Experiments? This is an obvious parallel.

[eschatological]

Like what happens when a Muslim girl who looks up to Captain Marvel becomes Ms. Marvel? Cause I believe that's a show Marvel has planned too.

Falcon literally first was published IN NINETEEN SIXTY FUCKING NINE. Isaiah Bradley's story was written IN TWO THOUSAND AND THREE, almost 20 years ago. Miss me with this shit.

[Endus]

You can always go too far with things, and when nearly every scene of an hour long superhero show is about race and the struggles black people of America are/were facing, it just gets to be too much, imo.

Why?

It's entirely relevant to Sam and what he's going through. Why shouldn't the show get into all that?

[qwerty123456]

The experiments were with a drug so unstable it literally killed every candidate who took it except Isaiah Bradley. Not right away, but eventually. They were experimented on because they were seen as disposable; the equivalent of laboratory mice or chimpanzees. Which is why when it turned out Bradley actually survived, they didn't treat him like a human being, they locked him in a cage for thirty years and experimented on him.

Like, they say this, explicitly, in the show. It isn't remotely unclear.

Yeah but the results are creating a more powerful black person. Even if you end up having 99% die you really think some racists are going to worry about the lives of cannon fodder poor/dumb whites? No. You are going to attempt to create soldiers you can trust. Racists don't even think races should mix. You think they are going to be ok with potentially creating a super black guy that can have super kids and so on and so on and replace the whites? That's like their literal nightmare scenario.

[eschatological]

You can always go too far with things, and when nearly every scene of an hour long superhero show is about race and the struggles black people of America are/were facing, it just gets to be too much, imo.

Honestly, I don’t even want to go further with the discussion, even though you’re a mod, cause I know you’ve warned against it in this section. And while I’m sure you yourself won’t infraction me, another mod could.

It is directly a theme of this show. It is plain, and laid bare for anyone to see. It's not infraction worthy to discuss what's actually shown in a show. It is off-topic to discuss conspiracies and made up "agendas" that only exist outside of the framework of the show.

I want to know how you think it's "overboard."

Because your excuse of "too much racial relations stuff in my superhero show" makes me think you know nothing about the comics these shows are based on, which have been diving into these issues, in depth, for 60 years. And the cinematic universe based on those comics WAITED THIRTEEN FUCKING YEARS TO INTRODUCE AN INCH OF DEPTH INTO THEIR FUCKING STORY. They spent more than a decade wallowing in inch-deep waters, the deepest thing they said being "you can't trust the government" in Civil War, and now...it's too overboard. 13 years after the MCU started.

Like, come on. Comics have been on the forefront of talking about these issues in our culture.

[Endus]

Yeah but the results are creating a more powerful black person. Even if you end up having 99% die you really think some racists are going to worry about the lives of cannon fodder poor/dumb whites? No. You are going to attempt to create soldiers you can trust. Racists don't even think races should mix. You think they are going to be ok with potentially creating a super black guy that can have super kids and so on and so on and replace the whites? That's like their literal nightmare scenario.

They weren't trying to create soldiers. They were using them as guinea pigs so they could study how their serum went wrong as it killed them so they could tweak future formulations. Literally explicitly stated. The only reason they didn't kill Bradley outright was because they could get more use out of him by keeping him in a cage for the rest of his natural life. Which, as far as they know, they did; he only got out by faking his death.

It's like you didn't pay any attention whatsoever to the story. And you're coming real close to suggesting that Bradley should be thankful for the benefits he gained.

[eschatological]

Yeah but the results are creating a more powerful black person. Even if you end up having 99% die you really think some racists are going to worry about the lives of cannon fodder poor/dumb whites? No. You are going to attempt to create soldiers you can trust. Racists don't even think races should mix. You think they are going to be ok with potentially creating a super black guy that can have super kids and so on and so on and replace the whites? That's like their literal nightmare scenario.

Nah, you create soldiers you think you can control. Which, after all, was the huge problem with Steve Rogers, in their mind. They couldn't control him.

But they controlled Isaiah Bradley pretty easily. They broke him, and then he was erased. Completely. That's the point.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Also the whole premise of racists intentionally creating super soldiers from people they hate/dont like is kinda silly imo. I can understand a racist doing horrible experiments on someone and them accidentally getting superpowers but to intentionally create a better X because your somehow worried a white guy might die is pretty dumb. It's like deadpool where they somehow create an even more powerful version of wolverines regeneration and instead of using it on themselves to be rich immortal assholes they give it to some dipshit.

All but one of the people they were giving "powers" to died. They were guinea pigs. Nazi scientists did the same kind of thing to the jews...subjecting them to all kinds of strange medical experiments just to see what might work.

Read some history. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...al-experiments