{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[s_bushido]

I honestly don't see "Captain America" being a thing, moving forward. I think either Bucky or Sam could carry the shield, with a repaint so it carries a new symbol. Probably a deviation from the comics. One thought I had with the new Wakanda gear Sam got; the Wakandans like colors. We've got Black Panther, and Bucky is "White Wolf". Given the offhand reference to the Redtails by Isaiah, maybe "Red Falcon"? Heck, it would even forestall calling him "Black Red Falcon", because that's just fuckin' silly.

I figured with his expression and the "ok, I can do this" breath he took when he opened the Wakandan box, that they had painted it in Cap's colors (presumably at Bucky's request since he basically gave Sam his blessing). But I could just be reading too much into it, and we'll find out in a week.

[qwerty123456]

Nah, you create soldiers you think you can control. Which, after all, was the huge problem with Steve Rogers, in their mind. They couldn't control him.

But they controlled Isaiah Bradley pretty easily. They broke him, and then he was erased. Completely. That's the point.

They somewhat controlled him. Then they broke him and luckily he was saved by a single "good" person.

All but one of the people they were giving "powers" to died. They were guinea pigs. Nazi scientists did the same kind of thing to the jews...subjecting them to all kinds of strange medical experiments just to see what might work.

Read some history. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...al-experiments

Yeah and how many of the Jews did they try to make super soldiers out of then have fight for them???

I already said I can see racists experimenting on people they hate. I don't see them making them better than themselves. That literally goes against their core belief of being better than them.

They weren't trying to create soldiers. They were using them as guinea pigs so they could study how their serum went wrong as it killed them so they could tweak future formulations. Literally explicitly stated. The only reason they didn't kill Bradley outright was because they could get more use out of him by keeping him in a cage for the rest of his natural life. Which, as far as they know, they did; he only got out by faking his death.

It's like you didn't pay any attention whatsoever to the story. And you're coming real close to suggesting that Bradley should be thankful for the benefits he gained.

What are you on about. No where did I say he should be grateful. It's disgusting that you would try and twist what I said into something so disgusting. You really should take a look at yourself if thats what you think. They literally had him out during the Korean War trying to kill Bucky. That's not keeping him as a guinea pig. Given the fact that Steve already told them to fuck off he wasn't going to just be a promo boy you would think that even if a racist decided to only use black people they would have had any survivors perma locked up. Clearly you didn't pay attention thinking he was perma locked up. Maybe don't go insulting people without checking a wiki first?

[Endus]

It’s nothing specific that bothered me, and it’s not that the topic is being brought up. Like I said, I thought it went overboard because nearly every scene in the hour long episode was about race and the struggles black Americans are/were facing. It got too heavy in a show that’s about superheroes.

I really take issue with the bold.

There's nothing about "superheroes" that suggests a product should be seen as shallow. The Iliad and the Odyssey, and a heck of a lot of other Greek myths, are really just stories about superheroes. They just called them "demigods". That's just a difference in origin story, though. Same for a lot of other early mythology. A lot of early science fiction, like Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, involve characters who are as much "superheroes" with tech as Tony Stark is. "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" is a classic that's the direct inspiration in many ways for the Hulk. And so on.

These are themes and concepts that have literally echoed through the stories humanity has told each other for as long as we've had records to write those stories down, and likely far longer.

And many of those stories deal with very heavy issues. Many modern comics do. Watchmen is pretty damned heavy, and was published in the mid-80s, 35 years ago, and won the Hugo the year after it was finished. It's not really about superheroes, but the graphic novel Maus won the Pulitzer back in '92.

This is a mature and complex genre. It deals with real, heavy issues, and has done so for longer than most of us have been alive. Race, in particular, has been a recurring issue of discussion for Marvel for better than 50 years, through conscious and deliberate choice.

This is what the genre is about. I flatly do not understand people arguing that it should just be shallow, empty nonsense.

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What are you on about. No where did I say he should be grateful. It's disgusting that you would try and twist what I said into something so disgusting. You really should take a look at yourself if thats what you think. They literally had him out during the Korean War trying to kill Bucky. That's not keeping him as a guinea pig. Given the fact that Steve already told them to fuck off he wasn't going to just be a promo boy you would think that even if a racist decided to only use black people they would have had any survivors perma locked up. Clearly you didn't pay attention thinking he was perma locked up. Maybe don't go insulting people without checking a wiki first?

"Despite his service to the United States of America in the Korean War, Bradley was put in prison for thirty years. During that time, scientists ran tests on him, took samples of his blood."

""For the next thirty years, they experimented on me, trying to figure out why the serum worked. There was a nurse. She took pity on me. Wrote up some fake reports, something. She had me declared dead.""

https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fand...d_Experimented

Maybe follow your own advice, there, champ?

[eschatological]

It's Hollywood who made superheroes shallow, in an attempt to make it more palatable to everyone. And it worked.

But even Reeves' Superman movies had some depth to them. It was mainly the 80s/90s Batmans saccharine-sweet movies which turned the superhero genre shallow. Christopher Nolan explored a grimdark version of the genre, but it still wasn't too deep. It's 30 years of movies which have made superheroes shallow. That's it. And even in there, you have things like Watchmen (which was still butchered in terms of its themes by Zach Snyder) and some of the X-Men movies which touched on these things.

[qwerty123456]

"Despite his service to the United States of America in the Korean War, Bradley was put in prison for thirty years. During that time, scientists ran tests on him, took samples of his blood."

""For the next thirty years, they experimented on me, trying to figure out why the serum worked. There was a nurse. She took pity on me. Wrote up some fake reports, something. She had me declared dead.""

https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fand...d_Experimented

Maybe follow your own advice, there, champ?

Can you not read? He was out...... he was locked up after...... You literally just posted exactly what I have been saying LOL. You sure are a spiteful person to try and prove someone was wrong without even seeing what was said...

[eschatological]

I’m not arguing that.

You seem to be implying that the superhero genre shouldn't focus on stories like this.

[Endus]

Can you not read? He was out...... he was locked up after...... You literally just posted exactly what I have been saying LOL.

He was not "out". He did a couple missions as they tested his capacity, and then was locked away for 30 years when he didn't die like they expected him to.

They were abusing black servicemen and using them as guinea pigs. Trying to whitewash that to be anything but the travesty of human rights that it would have been is an insult to every black American who died in similar programs and tests in the real world.

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I’m not arguing that.

You complained about the themes being "heavy".

The alternative to that is the themes being just light and shallow.

[qwerty123456]

He was not "out". He did a couple missions as they tested his capacity, and then was locked away for 30 years when he didn't die like they expected him to.

They were abusing black servicemen and using them as guinea pigs. Trying to whitewash that to be anything but the travesty of human rights that it would have been is an insult to every black American who died in similar programs and tests in the real world.

Going to another country most certainly is "out". You can test someone in a room.

Whose trying to whitewash anything? I never said what they did wasn't monstrous/horrible. Jesus dude get over yourself you were wrong it's ok. I literally say in a very post you quoted I thought they should have showed more about racism by having Lemar get a worse deal than John by the Government. How delusional are you that you got to twist everything someone says to try and "win".

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Yeah and how many of the Jews did they try to make super soldiers out of then have fight for them???

I already said I can see racists experimenting on people they hate. I don't see them making them better than themselves. That literally goes against their core belief of being better than them.

They were using unproved serums with unknown side effects on people they deemed to be expendable. Then they used those people as weapons until they either died in combat or due to the side effects of the serum they were injected with. The one person that "survived" was then held prisoner and experimented on for 30 years.

What part of this is "making people better"?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Going to another country most certainly is "out". You can test someone in a room.

Whose trying to whitewash anything? I never said what they did wasn't monstrous/horrible. Jesus dude get over yourself you were wrong it's ok. I literally say in a very post you quoted I thought they should have showed more about racism by having Lemar get a worse deal than John by the Government. How delusional are you that you got to twist everything someone says to try and "win".

Lamar did get a worse deal. John got to be Captain America. Lamar got to be a sidekick.

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The alternative, for me, would be balance so you don’t overdo it or underdo it.

We seem to disagree that this episode overdid it, but that doesn’t mean I want the show to be “light and shallow”.

This here is some classic white fragility.

Bringing forbidden topics to derail the thread isn't allowed. Infracted.

[qwerty123456]

Lamar did get a worse deal. John got to be Captain America. Lamar got to be a sidekick.

Lemar died a good person. John lost who he was, the friend he probably loved more than anyone other than his wife(maybe even more as they have been friends forever), his status, his sanity, and pretty much everything else.

They were using unproved serums with unknown side effects on people they deemed to be expendable. Then they used those people as weapons until they either died in combat or due to the side effects of the serum they were injected with. The one person that "survived" was then held prisoner and experimented on for 30 years.

What part of this is "making people better"?

They already knew what someone could become. You're telling me that Captain America wasn't a better human physically? All soldiers are expendable. Typically you use the ones you think will be most loyal to you. How many X-Americans during during X-War were given the keys to what ever was top secret at the time?

[ParanoiD84]

Well that was a pretty meh episode but i do enjoy the show overall.

[cyberglum]

Shame the Wakandans didn't stick some fat stacks in with the suit and help a brother out.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Lemar died a good person. John lost who he was, the friend he probably loved more than anyone other than his wife(maybe even more as they have been friends forever), his status, his sanity, and pretty much everything else.

Do you know Lamar was a "good person"? Do you think John was? They were both good soldiers....but that's not necessarily the same thing.

They already knew what someone could become. You're telling me that Captain America wasn't a better human physically? All soldiers are expendable. Typically you use the ones you think will be most loyal to you. How many X-Americans during during X-War were given the keys to what ever was top secret at the time?

Yes, the point was to create super soldiers. But they didn't know how many would have to die before they got it right. So they used black people as guinea pigs.

[Ihavewaffles]

Okay, I’m honestly just really annoyed by the beginning fight scene with Walker. They really made Bucky weaker. This dude was comparable to Steve in strength, agility, fighting... he mimicked him when they fought, only being better when it came to handling a knife. Yet here’s Walker kicking his ass, and his arm (the one that’s supposed to be even tougher than his initial one) malfunctions.

What a load of shit.

They did the same with Vision in infinity war, he barely fought back..

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Overall, though, I didn’t enjoy this episode. It was too woke and felt like a filler episode.... and I don’t really like Sam’s sister. I find her annoying.

the problem with that is that next is the last episode? n they haven't even revealed the power broker n somehow are going to tie everything together..

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How was it overboard? The story is literally about a black man struggling to accept his role as Captain America, which is literally been a symbol and propaganda piece for decades.

Like honestly, the fragility people express over people of color being seen and heard is hilarious and......kinda the point of the series. This is the same outrage expressed when Falcon took up the mantle of Captain America in the comics, nearly 20 years ago. Except you're couching it by saying "It's important........but it went overboard, and was woke." Like, Sam literally rejected the bitterness of Isaiah, and is looking to be a unifier. Jesus Christ.

I think you are missing the point, the fragility is seen in black people is what's annoying, that you can't make a character without making a victim, which is weak cheap writing, and repetitive af in this day. It's what's on the media n social media 24/7, so how is it not repeating treaded territory? It's not a "fragility" to recognize that u should be able to write a black character as a person, instead of a member never-ending collective victimhood. But that would take real creativity..

They did some of that though sometimes, like falcon rejected that kid that called him black falcon, "I'm falcon, and you are? black kid?"
It's alright if falcon wants to recognize the past, but he isn't in the past, he is in the present n needs to move forward. Like I wrote above, last episode soon, we don't know who powerbroker is, flag smashers are going to blow some shit up, and here we are treading through old tracks from the past

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"Okay, can the black voices shut up so we can hear more white-focused talk and stop being asked to understand how bad race relations in the USA are?"

This is a really fuckin' bad look people.

So, you are saying, if you see a black face on screen, you should be expecting the story should be about race?

Every time some new character comes...imagine if you Endus n another guy got the job to make a new character

Endus: Ok, lets figure something out
Other guy: Lets make character black
Endus: Sure, what profesion does he/she have, age, what is life experience
Other guy: victim of racism! just fill in some random details
Endus: Won't people assume we are jumping on that so we don't have to actually figure something out?
Other guy: We'll just accuse them of being racist if they find out! And we have to do minimal work for the monies this way.

[qwerty123456]

Do you know Lamar was a "good person"? Do you think John was? They were both good soldiers....but that's not necessarily the same thing.



Yes, the point was to create super soldiers. But they didn't know how many would have to die before they got it right. So they used black people as guinea pigs.

He was the moral compass for John and yes from what we can tell he was a good person otherwise he wouldn't have been keeping John on the right path.

Again where in history has anyone ever intentionally given someone they hate a leg up over them?

[cyberglum]

So, you are saying, if you see a black face on screen, you should be expecting the story should be about race?

Every time some new character comes...imagine if you Endus n another guy got the job to make a new character

Endus: Ok, lets figure something out
Other guy: Lets make character black
Endus: Sure, what profesion does he/she have, age, what is life experience
Other guy: victim of racism! just fill in some random details
Endus: Won't people assume we are jumping on that so we don't have to actually figure something out?
Other guy: We'll just accuse them of being racist if they find out! And we have to do minimal work for the monies this way.

The absured thing is Sam has been trying to make the legacy of the Shield NOT about Race ("I'm just The Falcon, not The Black Falcon") throughout the whole series.

I don't think Sam has any intention of being Black Captain America, he's just going to be Captain America. That's why Steve gave him the Shield, because Sam understands and values the fact that the mantle doesn't represent the fucked-up race issues that exist in the USA today, but the Ideal of freedom and liberty for all.

[Ihavewaffles]

Kinda not the point.

Who then? Tony Stark? He dead, Pepper then? Their daughter?

[segara82]

Felt preachy and predictable.

I don't mind them talking about races and issues and racism, but this episode it felt like every second scene had to be about that. And that got old and preachy fast.

Now, why was Steve Rogers not locked up? IMHO a few things were different:
1. He was a propaganda tool, the perfect white guy. He had charisma, looks and a pleasant personality. Plus the only one, so why risk him?
2. Adding to that the generals did not take the whole super-soldier thing as serious as after Caps actions during WW2. Once they saw how he and his friends ripped through Nazi territory and troops of course they took notice and interest.
3. The military was very different before WW2 and after WW2 because they thought with different parameters and goals in mind. Before WW2 the US was not the mighty military giant/powerhouse it would become.
From 2-3 % of the GDP in the inter-war periode to a whopping 40% during WW2 and then falling down but staying at around 10+ % for the next decades.
The Cold War, shrinking of UK power and rise of communism greatly changed the demands the US had from all branches.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#/media/Fileefense_Spending_as_a_Percent_of_GDP.png

[Ihavewaffles]

The point was that the person who said the government doesn’t own the shield was Madam Hydra, not the US government. The government isn’t distancing themselves from it, they asked for it back. Presumably so it could be given to someone else at some point. Not sure who owns the shield, but Wakandans seem to view all vibranium as their property. Even though Ayo said to leave it, her doing so was showing that had she not the shield would have gone with them back to Wakanda.

they seem to be giving it away on a whim almost..wakandians hardly know of falcon nor seem to care, yet bucky made them give him some vibranium suit n wings..

..it was different with the shield, it was thanos n end of the world times..