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  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Hahahah, oh lord - it's always so funny (and yet so sad) to see how hypocritical and blind most of the right-wing grifters are. Moreso just embarrassing actually.

    Rules for thee but not for me etc
    ......weird a certain group invaded the Oklahoma capitol building this week to stop a session as you say rules for me and not for thee......or you know that same group has been invading government buildings and burning them down since their inception...

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    Quote Originally Posted by neocount View Post
    Question - if the person Sharon was talking to on the phone at the end of the last episode was Nick Fury, would what she was saying make sense?

    I'm not entirely convinced she's the Power Broker.
    No, it pretty much seems to seal it. People get too deep on Disney stuff(myself included when I said it made no sense for her to be it). They're not playing 4D chess here.

    Bringing up forbidden topics isn't allowed. Infracted.
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2021-04-25 at 04:45 PM.

  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    And IMHO it makes no sense for a real racist to do that.

    By using undesireable people as the guniea pigs to create the SSS you risk creating a new super soldier or several. Who will then run roughshod over the whole experiment and become symbols of resistance.
    It absolutely makes sense. A "real racist" wouldn't even see them as people, but rather just disposable guinea pigs to test dangerous and unstable concoctions on. I'm sure they were well aware that most of the subjects would die, and were probably fairly confident that any that didn't die could just be caged. Just because there might have been a risk of one of the subjects escaping and fighting back doesn't mean all REAL racists would consider that a likely risk or a reason not to do the experiments if the whole point was to isolate a usable serum for more "worthy" candidates.

  3. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    ......weird a certain group invaded the Oklahoma capitol building this week to stop a session as you say rules for me and not for thee......or you know that same group has been invading government buildings and burning them down since their inception...
    In case anyone else is wondering what he's going off about;

    https://www.koco.com/article/oklahom...itol/36191759#
    https://kfor.com/news/protesters-gat...ahoma-capitol/

    Literally just a couple dozen protesters who legally entered the building and yelled some slogans. No damage done, no assaults, they left peacefully when asked. That's it. That's what he's trying to present as an "invasion".

    No "attempting to stop a session"; that's just a flat-out lie.

    And definitely no arson. But why stick to the facts when you can fantasize about an alternate reality?

    Particularly when it's not the fantastical alternate reality of the show we're supposed to be discussing. Gotta get that political disinformation out everywhere.

    Bringing up forbidden topics isn't allowed. Infracted.
    Last edited by Faltemer; 2021-04-26 at 03:31 AM.


  4. #1004
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They stole the serum from her. She knows Sam and Bucky are on that trail too, and it was easier for her to insert herself than to try and work against them. That's how I read it.



    It's a cover story. She needs to justify why she's in Madripoor and what she's been doing. It also makes her seem like she needs help, and they're both suckers for that stuff.



    First, ask yourself why she had a sniper in place targeting Selby in the first place.
    My best guess is that Selby was a problem for <insert reason>, and Sharon was going to remove the problem, and then Sam and Bucky walked in the door. Everything seemed tossed together over the next couple hours, IMO, because it was.



    She developed that serum. She explicitly calls our Karli for betraying her by stealing it, in the final confrontation. She didn't risk the serum; Karli really did steal it and she really was trying to get it back. The pardon's just an opportunity, but she had reason to insert herself with Sam and Bucky to try and keep tabs on their pursuit of the serum even without the offer of a pardon; that just makes it seem like they're the ones helping HER out, rather than vice versa.

    The pardon's still of value because she's worked that into re-inserting herself with the US government, which will help make up a lot of the loss of the serum, if not more.

    I get what you're saying, but I think this was all adequately explained in the show. What we don't know is if Sharon's motive is "be the biggest, baddest crime boss because fuck the law, man" or "the US government is corrupt and stupid and I'm gonna slap a saddle on Madripoor and reform it into a force for justice". We don't actually see her kill anyone who isn't at least arguably a super bad person. Selby was gonna murder Sam and Bucky, Batroc's, well, Batroc, and shot her too. And Karli was giving Sam a run for his money, and had killed a bunch of people. She's definitely more ruthless and has less mercy in her than pre-Snap, but I'm not convinced she's actually villainous yet.
    I think she is a villain now, and I think that makes sense. She got really screwed over by circumstance and the US government with all the shield fallout and CA civil war stuff, and now I think she's just running with that Benedict Arnold energy.

    Unrelated to the comment I'm quoting, I don't see how any of the race stuff is 'unrealistic' or 'cliched'. The one I've seen people bitching about a lot is the cops interrupting Bucky and Sam and being like "is this guy bothering you?" before recognizing him as the Falcon. I know a handful of semi-recognizable NFL players, and that kind of thing has happened to pretty much all of them (in front of me with one of them).

    Also unrelated I was a little disappointed that Bucky's stuff kind of fell by the wayside for the latter couple of episodes, but it's not like what I got out of the show was bad. I'd just like to see more Winter Soldier stuff too. I assume there'll definitely be plenty more screen time for them in movies, and possibly shows, so we'll get other stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    Yeah the lack of helmet was pretty funny. Forget headshots, the guy is zipping around at pretty high speeds and usually leading with his head. I mean it's a good idea to wear a helmet when you're traveling at bicycle speeds...
    I mean, he didn't have a helmet when he was just Falcon either, but now that he's got like that white spandex thing that goes up to his goggles, and then just has the top of his head sticking out it's kind of conspicuous.

  5. #1005
    Think the series overall was pretty good. I agree with some people that Karly's character didn't work that well, first off because people went ridiculously easy on her given the amount of people she's killed and secondly because she never felt truly threatening. I think the setup toward Sam becoming the Falcon was very good and I liked how he embodied hope for better in the face of Isaiah's (understandable) disillusion. I did feel his speech at the end was a little too long and somewhat cheesy and the fact it worked was too unrealistic. In this case show rather than tell would've been better, because it felt too preachy and on the nose. I think the Isaiah scene was a billion times better in that regard, because it showed cap actually doing something and Isaiah remaining skeptical but still finding a shred of inspiration.
    I also have a bit of an issue with every black superheroes' arcs being so heavily dominated by struggles against racism, at some point it gets exhausting and you want to just watch them kick some alien or sorcerers ass.

    As many have said Zemo was a highlight and I felt that Bucky also worked extremely well both as a friend to Sam and as someone dealing with their own issues.

    Walker was a cooler character than I expected, and actually at his most interesting and surprising when doing the right thing. I feel like it would've been easy to simply make us hate him, but showing someone trying to do well struggling to fill the gigantic boots left by cap was very well done. Feel like his new alias may be a poor choice for maintaining this direction though, and in that sense it kind of disappointed me.

    Both Bucky and Falcon had a bunch of cool fighting scenes though at times both of them struggled a bit more than makes sense given what I'd estimate their powerlevel to be.

    Looking forward to the next season though and I hope to see the guys dealing with more significant threats.

  6. #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polyxo View Post
    I think she is a villain now, and I think that makes sense. She got really screwed over by circumstance and the US government with all the shield fallout and CA civil war stuff, and now I think she's just running with that Benedict Arnold energy.
    Honestly, I've been mulling it over for a while, and another factor I think might have contributed to her "fall" is just the unbearable weight of legacy. Her mother was Peggy motherfuckin' Carter. The lady who built SHIELD out of scraps. She's the one who crushed HYDRA (at least, the overt forces). Imagine growing up with everyone expecting you to follow those footsteps. Always judging you when you fail to be a world-changing force of personality. Sure, you get a pity offer to be a SHIELD agent, but you don't get the big missions. Hell, you only got tasked with keeping taps on Steve when he got defrosted because they hoped you be enough like your mom that he'd be attracted to you, not because of any actual skill; it's still all about your mom.

    That's gotta wear on a person, even before they cast her aside without a second thought and made it super clear they'd never thought much of her.

    Also unrelated I was a little disappointed that Bucky's stuff kind of fell by the wayside for the latter couple of episodes, but it's not like what I got out of the show was bad. I'd just like to see more Winter Soldier stuff too. I assume there'll definitely be plenty more screen time for them in movies, and possibly shows, so we'll get other stuff.
    I've been saying since like Ep 2 that I felt Bucky needed the shield more. I understand why they went with Sam, and it's more culturally meaningful in a lot of ways I am not in any way contesting, but narratively, I felt Sam was pretty comfortable with who he was, whereas Bucky's just . . . lost. Bucky's arc in this show is a long downward spiral to the bottom. He's finally made his last amends, which is a positive step out from under the weight of his past misdeeds, but he still doesn't really know who he is. He's still the guy who feels, inside, like Steve was wrong about him the whole time. Now he doesn't even have the positive steps of those amends to take; what does he do now? I really hope they've got a strong plan for the character moving forward, because where he's at right now is pretty damned dark, even if they didn't focus on it much in the finale. His final scenes are him ruining his last friendship, which was always based on a lie in the first place. It's not a positive scene, at all.


  7. #1007
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Her mother was Peggy motherfuckin' Carter.
    It was her *aunt* Peggy. Not mother, not saying the legacy ain't a heavy burden. But they're at least not mother/daughter.. also given the age difference I would probably even guess greataunt.. not that it matters, I still think you're fairly on point.



    The show itself, overall. I liked it, it didn't surprise me in any way shape or form. But it was a decent marvel show, not their best but still worth a watch. I'd have liked to have seen more Bucky, but it wasn't his own show after all. Zemo was good, if perhaps treated a bit too much like a comical relief. He should give off the vibe that even without powers. He's the most dangerous man in the room, and at times. That came through for me. But sometimes he was just *not* that.

  8. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    His final scenes are him finding a new family with Sam. After he finished making amends and moving forward.
    Unless he's gonna start dating Sam's sister in a marriage-path kinda way, he's just a friend who's tagging along with Sam, not a part of the family, however welcome he may be there.


  9. #1009
    Quote Originally Posted by The Offbeat View Post
    It was her *aunt* Peggy. Not mother, not saying the legacy ain't a heavy burden. But they're at least not mother/daughter.. also given the age difference I would probably even guess greataunt.. not that it matters, I still think you're fairly on point.



    The show itself, overall. I liked it, it didn't surprise me in any way shape or form. But it was a decent marvel show, not their best but still worth a watch. I'd have liked to have seen more Bucky, but it wasn't his own show after all. Zemo was good, if perhaps treated a bit too much like a comical relief. He should give off the vibe that even without powers. He's the most dangerous man in the room, and at times. That came through for me. But sometimes he was just *not* that.
    I really thought Zemo's scenes worked so perfectly, especially with him 'understating' himself as much as he did. The others totally got played by him playing the kind of meek guy, which is why the danger he poses was completely forgotten until he just straight up shot Nagel and everybody went surprised pikachu face. I totally loved that. And the scene where for once he tries to actually point out that he's the most dangerous man in the room, it is made clear that he's actually not. He's the most dangerous man once he leaves the room or people think he's safely locked away. But when he points out his power (leverage) to Bucky, Bucky is about to kill him, which Zemo knows full well he could. Also, how he just silently hid himself behind Falcon and Bucky when Sharon pointed a gun at them.
    And Zemo got one of the most disgusting scenes (wonderfully acted by Brühl!) when he's "selling" the Winter Soldier to Shelby. That level of depravity he put on display there was almost breathtaking and showed how powerful of an actor Zemo (I mean in-universe Zemo) is to make it seem like he was really selling a person (while he of course knew he was lying). If he can act this, he can act everything.

    I know of course that that makes it harder to convince people that he is a criminal mastermind, because he understates himself so much, but to me that is the whole point of the character. You have to look twice to see the danger you're in. And I thought it was done marvelously.

  10. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    You've got a weird view of family. Bucky's view tends to include his closest friend being his brother. Their relationship has been quite like siblings for a while now. I'm not saying he's literally a part of that family, but that's a group he clearly feels comfortable with, playing with the kids, flirting with Sam's sister. I'm not saying he shouldn't keep looking for love, but the entire point of that final scene was to show he'd found some peace and was enjoying life with the people he was closest to now that Steve is gone.
    It's not that different from some scenes earlier in the show, though. It doesn't present itself as growth because of those earlier scenes; it's a space Bucky feels safe in, but it's not helping him to self-realize.

    There's some hints of an approach like the AlAnon 12 steps to Bucky's therapy; he'd have been working through steps 8 and 9 in the film, finally wrapping up #9 at the end there. That's essentially where the damage you've caused is repaired, but that's the basis for starting to actually move forward. That's basically Step 11; if we skip the "through God" stuff, Step 11 is all about figuring out what your path forward in life should be. The show spent its six episodes demonstrating over and over that Bucky didn't know what that path should be, and I don't agree that the family scene shows us he's figured that out. He appears happy, but as someone who's struggled with depression, it's really pretty damned normal to look and act happy, to be laughing and carrying on, when you're hurting deeply inside.

    I really can't accept "I ruined by only friend's life by telling him I'm the guy who murdered his son, and now everything is awesome!" That's what the show kind of tries to sell, and I don't believe that to be Bucky's internal monologue, not for a second. Not with the decades of self-hatred they clearly indicated he's going through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    I know of course that that makes it harder to convince people that he is a criminal mastermind, because he understates himself so much, but to me that is the whole point of the character. You have to look twice to see the danger you're in. And I thought it was done marvelously.
    I think one of the most-telling scenes with Zemo is that last shot of him on The Raft.

    Dude looks peaceful and happy. Sure doesn't look like things didn't go according to at least some of his plan.


  11. #1011
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's not that different from some scenes earlier in the show, though. It doesn't present itself as growth because of those earlier scenes; it's a space Bucky feels safe in, but it's not helping him to self-realize.

    There's some hints of an approach like the AlAnon 12 steps to Bucky's therapy; he'd have been working through steps 8 and 9 in the film, finally wrapping up #9 at the end there. That's essentially where the damage you've caused is repaired, but that's the basis for starting to actually move forward. That's basically Step 11; if we skip the "through God" stuff, Step 11 is all about figuring out what your path forward in life should be. The show spent its six episodes demonstrating over and over that Bucky didn't know what that path should be, and I don't agree that the family scene shows us he's figured that out. He appears happy, but as someone who's struggled with depression, it's really pretty damned normal to look and act happy, to be laughing and carrying on, when you're hurting deeply inside.

    I really can't accept "I ruined by only friend's life by telling him I'm the guy who murdered his son, and now everything is awesome!" That's what the show kind of tries to sell, and I don't believe that to be Bucky's internal monologue, not for a second. Not with the decades of self-hatred they clearly indicated he's going through.

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    I think one of the most-telling scenes with Zemo is that last shot of him on The Raft.

    Dude looks peaceful and happy. Sure doesn't look like things didn't go according to at least some of his plan.
    Just like when in Civil War he was told that his plans failed and he smiled happily saying 'did they?' (or something like that) while being locked up in a really uncomfortable looking cage. ^^


    One more thing I thought of is all the people blaming Bucky for breaking out Zemo, when it was made clear that Zemo already had that card to break out, he just lacked the motivation. Bucky provided the opportunity, because he needed him right then and there, but Zemo already had the means. But no one even thinks of that possibility, because Zemo is locked up safely in a high security prison.
    I just love that kind of trickery stuff and misdirection

  12. #1012

  13. #1013
    Was pretty boring throughout no matter what other people thought, if they liked it good for them, for me it was just boring and predictable, its really just an elongated origin story for sam being captain america now, which some wiill/do love but while i do not dislike the character this show did not make me like him.

  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    A good analysis and I almost agreed until I remembered The Dark Knight trilogy. It is possible to do non-super powered heroes and make them interesting if the characters are interesting enough. Sam's a boy scout with wings who will monologue long enough if no one will interrupt and it sounds patriotic or progressive, but in the real world it just sounds like babble. I noticed one thing. My favorite episodes (4 and 5) featured Zemo heavily. Zemo and Walker (before he became 2-dimensionally bad.) This episode lacked Zemo who was easily the most interesting character on this show.

    Yeah, Sam is boring. It's not a non-super thing. It's a Falcon thing.

    Yeah I accepted this is just the character when it's just Falcon. I mean, It's Falcon.

    But him being "Captain America" and being that far off what Steve Rodgers was just feels bad to me.

  15. #1015
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    You can say the same about Iron Man. He’s just a regular guy in a powerful suit, similar to Falcon, but Iron Man is actually an interesting and entertaining character, made better with an actor that was perfect for the role. His Marvel movies are some of the best.

    Sam was always a boring character, which was only reinforced with this series. I had hopes with the first episode but they just kept failing. I don’t think we’ll get a Captain America that does Evans justice. He, like Downey, made that role.

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    Ugh, and that speech Sam made.... holy hell... it was terrible.
    What's boring about a guy that got hired because he was jogging outside landmark American buildings and tells senators to do better

  16. #1016
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Disney better really think about who the next Iron Man will be—if there will be one—cause I’m greatly disappointed with the new Captain America. I can’t even see myself watching any movies that are made with Sam. He’s just so underwhelming and lacks presence.

    Ugh.... and don’t even get me started on Bucky. They did him wrong in this series.
    They need more interesting stories to work with.

    They have all these amazing actors and they do next to nothing with them except for a few exceptions like Jon Favarou with Robert Downey Jr and the Russo's work with Evans on Cap.

    Its hard to pull off the heroic stoic type and make it interesting. Somehow Evan's pulled it off with the help of the Russo's giving him a bit more edge and not being a total goody good. But anthony mackie is no chris evans

  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    You can say the same about Iron Man. He’s just a regular guy in a powerful suit, similar to Falcon, but Iron Man is actually an interesting and entertaining character, made better with an actor that was perfect for the role. His Marvel movies are some of the best.

    Sam was always a boring character, which was only reinforced with this series. I had hopes with the first episode but they just kept failing. I don’t think we’ll get a Captain America that does Evans justice. He, like Downey, made that role.

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    Ugh, and that speech Sam made.... holy hell... it was terrible.
    To each their own of course, but I've got to say - in the comics I CANNOT stand Falcon OR Captain America. In the MCU, I love both.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    But anthony mackie is no chris evans
    While true, why would we want just more of the same? New Cap, new style/approach/etc.

    Evans was absolutely fantastic and I will miss him in the role, but I look forward to seeing where Mackie (and the MCU of course) goes with the character from here.

  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlaan View Post
    To each their own of course, but I've got to say - in the comics I CANNOT stand Falcon OR Captain America. In the MCU, I love both.



    While true, why would we want just more of the same? New Cap, new style/approach/etc.

    Evans was absolutely fantastic and I will miss him in the role, but I look forward to seeing where Mackie (and the MCU of course) goes with the character from here.
    Well they need to ditch the pity party themes imo.

    Perfect guy battling racism is quite boring. I'd like to see some personality coming from the character not just a trope

    Ironman had the womanising and Evan's had the "F you government" to give them some much needed spice

  19. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Well they need to ditch the pity party themes imo.

    Perfect guy battling racism is quite boring. I'd like to see some personality coming from the character not just a trope

    Ironman had the womanising and Evan's had the "F you government" to give them some much needed spice
    You think Evans's "F you government" was an actual theme/growth or interesting? It was just him holding to his own character already. It was an extension of his own patriotism, because what the "government" was doing was fundamentally anti-American. And it was just reinforced when they found out the U.S. Government was basically being run by HYDRA.

    And they instantly were back at Avengers HQ by Infinity War. They basically just erased the "interesting character" they made in Civil War, post Civil War. And they were all living at HQ post-Snap.

    Evans was by far the most boring character of the Avengers who only got slightly less boring when he stopped chiding people for swearing.

    Oh, and Anthony Mackie is a great fucking actor, idk what y'all are on about. Captain America is just a boy scout character, which will always be somewhat dull.

  20. #1020
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    You think Evans's "F you government" was an actual theme/growth or interesting? It was just him holding to his own character already. It was an extension of his own patriotism, because what the "government" was doing was fundamentally anti-American. And it was just reinforced when they found out the U.S. Government was basically being run by HYDRA.

    And they instantly were back at Avengers HQ by Infinity War. They basically just erased the "interesting character" they made in Civil War, post Civil War. And they were all living at HQ post-Snap.

    Evans was by far the most boring character of the Avengers who only got slightly less boring when he stopped chiding people for swearing.

    Oh, and Anthony Mackie is a great fucking actor, idk what y'all are on about. Captain America is just a boy scout character, which will always be somewhat dull.
    Strongly disagree with simplifying steve rogers cap america as just "anti government because they are anti american"

    Last I checked america dont just particpate in insititutes like nato and UN but actually found them half the time. The idea of the "sokovia accords" around civil war time was interesting. Because sometimes just agreeing with the collective can put you in difficult situations, that is a very current world theme that is interesting. Because both sides can be right instead of something like racism which is obviously bad and do we really need people in capes fixing those issues? I prefer it when that stuff is hinted subtly rather than straight story themes
    Last edited by RobertoCarlos; 2021-04-26 at 01:12 AM.

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