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  1. #381
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Glad we agree then.
    This particular line of discussion can be closed here.
    Teaching or spreading misinformation, is very much on topic of flirting with the extreme right.

    Here is where Tim Pool got the joke, you took seriously:
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Glad we agree then.
    This particular line of discussion can be closed here.
    If you're not gonna back up your allegations, sure. I guess there's nothing left to discuss on that topic, but damn was I curious as to where these elementary school textbooks are.

  3. #383
    Welcome to the Cowardly Bullshitter's Argumentation Method, boys and girls and everyone else.

  4. #384
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Give examples, then. I'm willing to look at these sorts of claims, though I'm sure my statement will hold true, but I need something more substantial to work with than a restatement of the idea without a source.
    It’s trying to be the victim, by making it a both sides argument. It’s a joke meant to exemplify how extreme the right is about muslims, but it seems like Tim Pool tried to rework the joke to be this nonsense... with a parrot, repeating it... which just goes to once again prove... right wing comedy, is never funny...

    Edit: Muslims invented math, so the joke doesn’t actually work with Shaman and makes the joke just dumb.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    I don't wish to go down this route of bickering over sources, and I've seen people getting infracted for linking articles like these many times on this subforum in the past.
    .
    Liar.

    That's what you're doing. You're lying.

    You made up some outrageous bullshit, now you're trying to weasel yourself out of backing it up.

    We're aren't leaving at that.

    Back up your previous statement or admit you made it up? Which is it going to be?


    Did you make it up? You made it up, didn't you. Common, we all know you made it up. Just admit it. Common!
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  6. #386
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    I don't wish to go down this route of bickering over sources, and I've seen people getting infracted for linking articles like these many times on this subforum in the past.
    The "I totally have a citation, she just goes to school in Canada" defense, huh?
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  7. #387
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    That's what you're doing. You're lying.
    I think this is also on topic of extremes gaining more exposure... What’s wrong with lying? With every single conspiracy theory or bullshit that gets exposed... What keeps these people going? What keeps them buying into bullshit, that gets exposed as lies on such a frequent basis? I think the issue is not knowing what is wrong with lying...

    There is the basic... where the lie simply exists, to push what ever the author is trying to convey. Then there is the less obvious part, of the liar thinking that ya’ll are stupid enough to believe it. Conspiracy theorist and extremists, seem to have the ability to make someone respond with... ‘please tell me more’... where the reply should have been... ‘how stupid do you think I am?’...

    You can support or ignore a lie all you like... but, just remember... an ideology predicated on a lie, makes followers morons... even if they are in on the lie. Because regardless if you are part of the scheme, you are still hinging your ideology on something you know is a lie... yet, you still hold ideological believes the lie is meant to protect.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    The "I totally have a citation, she just goes to school in Canada" defense, huh?
    Here is a random curriculum for K-6:

    http://www.oradellschool.org/osnj/OU...%20Curriculum/

    I didn’t look, because it’s an idiotic thing to even bother checking... but, feel free to point to the Shaman... lightning bolt!!!
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post

    Back up your previous statement or admit you made it up? Which is it going to be?
    Source:
    https://equitablemath.org/wp-content.../1_STRIDE1.pdf

    Comments by PhD. in Mathematics Sergiu Klainerman : "There is no such thing as white math."
    https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the...-as-white-math

    In the piece below he explains how activists are destroying his discipline in the name of progress. Worse, they are robbing poor children of the opportunity to raise themselves up by mastering it — with untold effects on all of us.

    Math, with its seemingly unbiased tools — 2 + 2 always equals 4 — has presented a problem for an ideological movement that sees any inequality of outcome as evidence of systemic bias. The problem cannot be that some kids are better at math, or that some teachers are better at teaching it. Like so much else, the basic woke argument against math is that it is inherently racist and needs to be made antiracist. That is accomplished by undermining the notion of right and wrong answers, by getting rid of the expectation that students show their work, by referring to mathematical testing tools as racist, and by doing away with accelerated math classes.
    Time to get infracted for posting uncomfortable truths, I suppose.
    See you guys in a few weeks.
    Last edited by Yas-Queen Rochana; 2021-03-16 at 06:53 PM.
    - The One and Only, the Legendary, the Mighty - You might recognize me from the forum signatures of lesser mortals obsessed with me. -
    Vexing little man-babies and normies on the internet since before you were born.

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Glad we agree then.
    This particular line of discussion can be closed here.
    This is you running away from your bullshit claims.

    This isn't a matter of agreement, this is you being caught.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Source:
    https://equitablemath.org/wp-content.../1_STRIDE1.pdf

    Comments by PhD. in Mathematics Sergiu Klainerman : "There is no such thing as white math."
    https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the...-as-white-math



    Time to get infracted for posted uncomfortable truths, I suppose.
    See you guys in a few weeks.
    How does that back up your claim about shamanism?

    This is you deflecting to cover for your lies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    If you're not gonna back up your allegations, sure. I guess there's nothing left to discuss on that topic, but damn was I curious as to where these elementary school textbooks are.
    The thing is, there is something to discuss.

    Namely that he just fucking dropped the statement that "Shamanism is being taught in school as an alternative to white science and maths".

    There are layers of implicit racism, race baiting, conspiracy bullshit and more condensed into that statement.

    The statement is still out there, with all the bullshit and built in racism.

    And it's just a matter of time before someone else is just going to repeat that somewhere.

    This whole "let's agree to disagree" trick he is trying to pull here allows him to imply that his "alternative fact" has any validity.

    It doesn't.

    He either repeated a lie or made one up on the spot.

    (I actually know the root of his bullshit spin, but it has nothing to do with any school curriculum. It's rooted in some dumb college kids in South Africa going way overboard with the whole "de-colonize the curriculum", someone filmed it and put on YouTube.

    Literally just dumb college kids saying dumb shit in an echo chamber.

    That video then got blown the way the fuck out of proportion and has been floating around in right wing and "Intellectual Dark Web" circles for years, snowballing into mythic proportions.

    And he is clearly aware of all that, just doesn't want his own bullshit rubbed in his face.)
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2021-03-16 at 07:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    That's not a schoolbook, first off. That's not being taught to children.

    Secondly, "Ctrl-F: Shaman" - 0 results. I'm not gonna read all 82 pages to look for what you claim is in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Comments by PhD. in Mathematics Sergiu Klainerman : "There is no such thing as white math."
    https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the...-as-white-math
    I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that there aren't some nutters, but this isn't remotely what you claimed still.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Time to get infracted for posting uncomfortable truths, I suppose.
    See you guys in a few weeks.
    Really, playing the victim constantly isn't a good look.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Yummy.

    Have you even read what you linked?

    There's no shamanism there. Nor is there a single suggestion that "math is racist" or that its "white".

    It just talks about how the techniques used to teach math can be racist as the techniques make base assumptions about access to preexisting knowledge base, language skills (vocabulary that's relatable for the student) and that educators can jump to the wrong conclusions on why their students are failing to connect with the curriculum, and it provides advice on techniques like localizing vocabulary, color coding and using deductive reasoning with students (also known as eliciting for people who ever taught a class of anything).

    And that Klainermen guy has either not fucking read the text or seems not to understand English.

    That entire thing is just a tool to help educators teach maths in a way that would make more sense for kids with different ethnic backgrounds.

    Also, mathematics are in a fact a human construct. It's a language we use to express things about the nature of the universe.

    It's a language that you need to learn to use, you are not born into it nor does it exist "out in the wild" where you can just randomly acquire it.

    What that text talks about is that people learn things differently because of their different cultural backgrounds, and the reason why they sometimes struggle to learn something is because the instructor comes from a different cultural background and fails at communicating because the instructor himself has been taught there is only one path to the same objective. The one that he took.

    Nobody says that 2+2=/=4.

    What they are saying that...

    Two plus two equals four.

    But also...

    Dos más dos son iguales a cuatro.

    Or

    Zwei plus Zwei ist gleich vier.

    Just not in a language sense, but in a cultural sense, and that you as a teacher should frame your classes in a way that makes sense for your students.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2021-03-16 at 07:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  13. #393
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Here's where a trained educator is gonna school ya.

    That's a book about math instruction techniques, not about mathematics theory itself.

    Instruction techniques often rely on cultural touchstones and such, and that can make them biased in their application. That's the point being made, there.

    But then, it's clear you never even bothered trying to read the document you linked.

    Comments by PhD. in Mathematics Sergiu Klainerman : "There is no such thing as white math."
    https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the...-as-white-math
    That's a pretty whopping biased article, and posted on Bari fucking Weiss' blog of all places. Hardly a bastion of good journalism or ethical reporting.

    Here's what he gets wrong; he sees STEM fields in general, and mathematics in particular, as separate from culture and bias. And that's just wrong. He's internalized his own biases as they line up with the biases of those fields, and thus thinks of those biases as "normal" and "objectively true", but that's just an expression of his own personal bias.

    Mathematics, like many other systems, are tools invented and propagated by cultural groups. Even mathematicians, if pressed, will admit to as much, though they might not like noting the cultural basis. Take the base-10 system. That's what we teach as a standard practice, numerically, yes? It's what became standard in European mathematics systems centuries ago, and what's continued to be pushed as the default standard, to the point it's largely universal now. But the choice of Base-10 is not an objective one; it's entirely subjective and irrational. Base 12 is arguably "better" in many respects. Computers operate off either binary or hexadecimal; if base-10 were superior objectively, that wouldn't be the case, surely? And so forth.

    Here's another example; can you tell me what this is, mathematically?



    Or is there a cultural barrier to understanding? Because that's straight, simple, modern mathematics.

    The assumption that everyone is using the same exact symbols and syntax and formation is cultural hegemony and is exactly the kind of bias being pointed out. It's a demand that everyone in mathematics practice in European stylings and language. That's white supremacy, friendo.

  14. #394
    Pandaren Monk Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    OK, so this is exactly what I said it was. This isn't saying that math is racist, it's a guide on how best to be inclusive of non-white students, which includes acknowledging mathematicians of color to try and address the perceived whiteness of mathematics by students. There are some questionable examples from the organization, such as wanting to deemphasize correct answers, though this is because they are suggesting educators emphasize student's line of reasoning for arriving at conclusions rather than simply following preset steps to find an answer (i.e.: consider some word problem where visual learners may diagram the scenario and infer a method of solving it from the diagram, even if this answer is wrong it is helpful for instructors to be able to look at the line of thinking and address solution's in ways that the student can better understand/learn from). This isn't bad, it's just marketed badly.

    Comments by PhD. in Mathematics Sergiu Klainerman : "There is no such thing as white math."
    https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the...-as-white-math
    I hate to pull this card, but this is 100% the appeal to authority fallacy. Klainerman may be a PhD in mathematics, and his stance is reasonable from his perspective, but he is not a sociologist and his stance shows he did not consider the issues presented. No one has said that math, as in 1+1=2, is racist even though that is the stance he is broadly arguing against.

    Time to get infracted for posting uncomfortable truths, I suppose.
    See you guys in a few weeks.
    These aren't uncomfortable truths, these are instances of you not fully comprehending what you're citing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Here's another example; can you tell me what this is, mathematically?



    Or is there a cultural barrier to understanding? Because that's straight, simple, modern mathematics.

    The assumption that everyone is using the same exact symbols and syntax and formation is cultural hegemony and is exactly the kind of bias being pointed out. It's a demand that everyone in mathematics practice in European stylings and language. That's white supremacy, friendo.
    Looks like a piecewise function but I have to say that it being written right-to-left is throwing me off even though I can understand what it means, but that's sort of the point.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  15. #395
    Yeah, I didn't read the whole thing but it appears to deal with how mathematics is taught, identifying and addressing biases that may exist.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  16. #396
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    These aren't uncomfortable truths, these are instances of you not fully comprehending what you're citing.
    I'm seeing a pattern here, tbh.
    There is a limit to the success of conservative populism and the exploitation of "little guy" or "silent majority" rhetoric, and it is very often reached because of the emaciated, corrupted personalities of the demagogues themselves.
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  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Yeah, I didn't read the whole thing but it appears to deal with how mathematics is taught, identifying and addressing biases that may exist.
    What amuses me endlessly in this case is that this entire "controversy" is just basically an example of "right wingers failing at 12th grade reading comprehension".
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  18. #398
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Looks like a piecewise function but I have to say that it being written right-to-left is throwing me off even though I can understand what it means, but that's sort of the point.
    Like, I'm not trying to be snide about anything there. It's pretty standard calculus from what I can see, but the entire point of linking it is that there's a linguistic barrier and cultural assumptions in play that make it more difficult for someone used to European notation systems to work out. It doesn't mean you CAN'T work it out, but it takes more effort than it would if it had been done in standard English.

    That "more work" applies the same way around for a mathematician for whom this styling would be "normal", and who has to work around that to work in standard European notation because Europeans insist upon it as if it were the standard because they (apparently) are the only ones who get a say. That's the entire issue, really. One one particular little sub-factor, at least.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    What amuses me endlessly in this case is that this entire "controversy" is just basically an example of "right wingers failing at 12th grade reading comprehension".
    SHAMANISM IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO ACTUAL MATH!

    Actually it's a teachers manual
    Actually it doesn't reference shamanism
    Actually it doesn't even actively discuss how math works either
    Actually it's about tools to help teachers better teach a subject matter to a more diverse student body that may not come with with the same cultural touchpoints and understandings

    Man, this is like Greg Abbott going out and saying that the election reform bill would let people buy votes with cocaine.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    SHAMANISM IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO ACTUAL MATH!

    Actually it's a teachers manual
    Actually it doesn't reference shamanism
    Actually it doesn't even actively discuss how math works either
    Actually it's about tools to help teachers better teach a subject matter to a more diverse student body that may not come with with the same cultural touchpoints and understandings

    Man, this is like Greg Abbott going out and saying that the election reform bill would let people buy votes with cocaine.
    Cocaine you say?

    I'm interested.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

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