Page 4 of 30 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
5
6
14
... LastLast
  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's pretty simple.

    Don't take someone's self-identification as gospel.

    Look at what they actually support and propose, and you'll see who they really are, rather than who they claim they are.

    It's not hard. And people whining because they're lying about who they are and keep getting caught out, they're just lying assholes.
    Isn't that exactly the Jimmy Dore argument regarding AOC though - extended to "what they are actually prepared to fight for"?

    And without extension, is there anything that Jimmy Dore actually supported or proposed (outside of attacks on other personalities/outlets) that would make him not left-wing?

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's pretty simple.

    Don't take someone's self-identification as gospel.

    Look at what they actually support and propose, and you'll see who they really are, rather than who they claim they are.

    It's not hard.
    Whew, did you also apply that to Biden ?

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Whew, did you also apply that to Biden ?
    Oh? What does he claim to be, and how is it wrong in your opinion?

    And is this an indirect admission that you are regressive based on your far-right leanings and stances, contrary to your claims to be progressive?
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  4. #64
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Rigging your election
    Posts
    33,974
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Yes, infighting and purity-testing is fairly common left characteristic.
    And then the right is just the party of Trump, where if you disagree with Trump, you are liberal scum who needs to be replaced with Trump worshipping cronies.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Oh? What does he claim to be, and how is it wrong in your opinion?

    And is this an indirect admission that you are regressive based on your far-right leanings and stances, contrary to your claims to be progressive?
    Anyone who judged Biden by his past deeds would've been unable to conclude anything but the fact that he has been a conservative / semi-Republican his entire life. He even bragged about his long history of working with Mitch McConnel and the Republican Party regularly during his election campaign.

    Maybe you should direct some of your ire towards him and his past instead of at random nobodies on an internet forum?

  6. #66
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    In Security Watching...
    Posts
    40,798
    Here’s the thing when it comes to that who’s left or liberal and who isn’t.

    Jimmy Dore can be a Liberal or left so can anyone else.

    It’s like being a feminist and suggesting that other feminist just can’t be horrible people.

    One thing isn’t tied to another. Now I do and will call someone else out who isn’t really left or liberal. But never simply as an insult or to gatekeep.

    I just rather be clear about what things are, but that again has nothing to do with someone being a POS.

    That said Jimmy Dore is a fucking moron, he’s a cheap suit sell out just Joe Rogan etc, who in hearing people talk about being a sellout.

    Bottom line is it’s game it’s about $$$$$$ at the end of the day.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Anyone who judged Biden by his past deeds would've been unable to conclude anything but the fact that he has been a conservative / semi-Republican his entire life. He even bragged about his long history of working with Mitch McConnel and the Republican Party regularly during his election campaign.
    And I am asking you what he claimed to be, you can't even answer this.

    If he never claimed to be anything, then how is false self-identification even relevant to Biden?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Maybe you should direct some of your ire towards him and his past instead of at random nobodies on an internet forum?
    You do realize it's because it's an internet forum that I should question the motives of a far-right concern troll rather than Biden because at least I would get a response from the former?
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    And I am asking you what he claimed to be, you can't even answer this.

    If he never claimed to be anything, then how is false self-identification even relevant to Biden?
    Since when are words louder than deeds? How is self-identification a higher priority for you than actual deeds?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Since when are words louder than deeds? How is self-identification a higher priority for you than actual deeds?
    I mean, you call yourself a left-wing progressive but you are sympathetic to and supportive of far-right ideology, of course your self-identification is going to be criticized. In the meantime, did Biden claim to be left-wing or whatever to have his self-identification questioned?

    You are an intellectually dishonest actor who's just shamelessly projecting their own personal flaws on others.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    I mean, you call yourself a left-wing progressive but you are sympathetic to and supportive of far-right ideology
    I'm supportive of the truth, not blinded by ideology. I find that far more important as someone who supports left-wing or progressive ideas and concepts.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    I'm supportive of the truth, not blinded by ideology. I find that far more important as someone who supports left-wing or progressive ideas and concepts.
    You are so supportive of the truth, that you lie about your positions and defend the dishonest.

    I don't think that's how it works.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  12. #72
    I remember when he was working for TYT that at some point I got do disgusted with him that I started to understand that he is part of the group that he has a right-wing mindset but that at best he probably like drugs and don't think that gay people need to be "cured".
    The guy started repeating right-wing propaganda talking-points on TYT, how Clinton killed Seth Rich and how the laugh of julian assange confirmed this theory. Put a transcript of what Dore says and what Alex Jones says and you probably would have a hard time determining who said what.

  13. #73
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,045
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    I'm supportive of the truth, not blinded by ideology. I find that far more important as someone who supports left-wing or progressive ideas and concepts.
    What truth is there in complaining about mermaids at the DNC? Just because you are repeating the same thing RNC convention was saying about leftist, doesn’t make it the truth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    You are so supportive of the truth, that you lie about your positions and defend the dishonest.
    Their truth is what matters to people is not healthcare, not housing, not the minimum wage, not authoritarianism, not the environment, not even labels for what’s contained in food you buy... their truth and what they consider important, is democrats launching an invasion of mermaids that will attack the sea, Jewish laser that will attack space and satan will rule the land...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  14. #74
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    66,766
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Whew, did you also apply that to Biden ?
    Obviously.

    The Democrats are a centrist party, with both center-left and center-right members. AOC and Bernie are center-left, Biden and Clinton more center-right.

    I can't recall any time when Biden self-identitied as progressive or left-wing, himself; he mostly speaks to policy and party.

    If you were arguing that Democrats are all left-wing, you'd be the one mischaracterizing the party because you're too focused on its relative position to the GOP, rather than am objective analysis of its members' views.

  15. #75
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Обединени социалистически щати на Америка
    Posts
    27,180
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorshen View Post
    Why are you all falling for Milchshake's shitposting again and again and again?
    Its fun to do. This forum would be a lot more boring without him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's pretty simple.

    Don't take someone's self-identification as gospel.

    Look at what they actually support and propose, and you'll see who they really are, rather than who they claim they are.

    It's not hard. And people whining because they're lying about who they are and keep getting caught out, they're just lying assholes.



    Is this where you pretend that "liberal" only has one single political meaning?

    Classical liberalism is the "capitalism can do no wrong, let business run free" ideology.
    Modern liberalism is the push for human and civil rights and freedoms, regulating industry wherever necessary to protect those individual rights and freedoms.

    Claiming that they're one and the same is essentially no different than the idiots who claim that Democrats are still the party of the KKK, today, because they used to be in the mid-19th Century. Worse, actually.

    Punks easily fit into the modern liberalist spectrum. They're all about personal freedoms.


    .
    And it was very clear that the sort of liberalism I was talking about is the capitalist one, because that is the one OP follows. And that definition of liberalism really only seems to get used in the US by... liberals. I don't really see anybody left-of-centre who self-identifies as liberal, its meaningless to try and turn liberalism into that wide of a label when its not. Even if a lot of liberals these days support moderate regulations, it does not change its a capitalist ideology. Or has the far right calling everything they don't like as 'liberal communism' broke the US liberals?


    Claiming punk is any way liberal is just silly, even with the bands who just use it a label to make money.
    Last edited by JohnBrown1917; 2021-03-10 at 01:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

  16. #76
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    66,766
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    And it was very clear that the sort of liberalism I was talking about is the capitalist one, because that is the one OP follows. And that definition of liberalism really only seems to get used in the US by... liberals. I don't really see anybody left-of-centre who self-identifies as liberal, its meaningless to try and turn liberalism into that wide of a label when its not. Even if a lot of liberals these days support moderate regulations, it does not change its a capitalist ideology.
    So doubling down on the deliberately dishonest insistence that classical liberalism is all liberalism and modern liberalism doesn't exist, ignoring pretty much the entire 20th Century development of modern liberalism in the process.

    Your position here is just definitively incorrect.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism

    Classical liberalism as a term has seen a resurgence, but outside of the last decade or so has largely not been what anyone would plainly use "liberal" to describe itself, as its all 18th and 19th Century principles, resurrected. Just use the more-mdern label; libertarian.

  17. #77
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,045
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrown1917 View Post
    And it was very clear that the sort of liberalism I was talking about is the capitalist one, because that is the one OP follows.
    Jimmy Dore is a failed comedian, turned into a multi million dollar house owner, on Beverly Hills... What’s more pro capatalist, than ripping off leftist to a tune of millions?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    So doubling down on the deliberately dishonest insistence that classical liberalism is all liberalism and modern liberalism doesn't exist, ignoring pretty much the entire 20th Century development of modern liberalism in the process.

    Your position here is just definitively incorrect.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism

    Classical liberalism as a term has seen a resurgence, but outside of the last decade or so has largely not been what anyone would plainly use "liberal" to describe itself, as its all 18th and 19th Century principles, resurrected. Just use the more-mdern label; libertarian.
    sorry what? the parties that adhere to what you call classical liberalism calls themselves liberals here...

    Over time, the meaning of the word liberalism began to diverge in different parts of the world. According to the Encyclopædia Britannica: "In the United States, liberalism is associated with the welfare-state policies of the New Deal programme of the Democratic administration of Pres. Franklin D. Roosevelt, whereas in Europe it is more commonly associated with a commitment to limited government and laissez-faire economic policies".
    Consequently, in the United States the ideas of individualism and laissez-faire economics previously associated with classical liberalism became the basis for the emerging school of libertarian thought and are key components of American conservatism.
    Last edited by Sugarcube; 2021-03-10 at 02:03 PM.

  19. #79
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    the other
    Posts
    58,045
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    sorry what? the parties that adhere to classical liberalism calls themselves liberals here...
    Guiliani called Trump a classic liberal... so do YouTube altright... it’s basically what you consider liberals, but before racism wasn’t cool.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  20. #80
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Обединени социалистически щати на Америка
    Posts
    27,180
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    So doubling down on the deliberately dishonest insistence that classical liberalism is all liberalism and modern liberalism doesn't exist, ignoring pretty much the entire 20th Century development of modern liberalism in the process.

    Your position here is just definitively incorrect.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism

    Classical liberalism as a term has seen a resurgence, but outside of the last decade or so has largely not been what anyone would plainly use "liberal" to describe itself, as its all 18th and 19th Century principles, resurrected. Just use the more-mdern label; libertarian.
    Im not saying all liberals are classic liberals, i'm saying all liberals are capitalists. Wanting regulations within capitalism does not change that it is capitalist. Or do you think European countries where not capitalist during the era where social democratic parties where in centrist coalitions with liberal/christian democrat parties?


    I mean look at the OP, we all know he was the biggest Biden fanboy on this forum during the primaries, how the fuck is he not a liberal capitalist?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    sorry what? the parties that adhere to classical liberalism calls themselves liberals here...
    He is using the Liberal definition that only gets used by right-wing US parties/factions. Ignoring the part that no left-wing political force labels themselves as liberal, not even in the US.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    it’s mostly a syndicalist fantasy that “the workers” are going to rise up, which is disconnected from the fact that “the workers” are your racist uncle and jerk co-workers who you don’t like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The election has passed and 58 million working class Americans stood up and proved that they are in fact your racist uncle and jerk co-workers.
    They really can't help but show disdain for the working class.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •