valor for casual

[Kolvarg]

the issue with this is that the activities you mention here lack the "effort" part of the reward vs effort concept, hence why they dont give gear, or you actually believe you should be able to farm 220 gear by doing these activities? do you find it fair for the existing 3 progression paths?

Well, you're wrong. WQs are not difficult content, but grinding hundreds of them is definitely, by definition, effort.

I do believe so. Not necessarily 220 gear, but definitely higher than 200 or whatever the cap is, it all depends on how its balanced. It wouldn't be fair if a single WQ just simply drops a 220 piece. It could be more than fair if you were able to get Valor from WQs, and eventually upgrade your WQ gear to 220 (for instance).

Because at the end of the day the people doing more difficult content would still get there much faster, with a lot less grinding, and almost certainly still with better loot overall (ie better trinkets, better stat optimization, etc) despite being of a similar ilvl.

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You can get 200 ilvl doing world quests and random BGs, you can only get 227 ilvl if you're a mythic raider or 2400+ in arenas. Do you really think the gap should be smaller? Honestly? It's only 27 ilvls. There's literally no reason it should even be as close as it is honestly.

But why? You don't need 227 gear to clear Mythic.

There's as much reason for the gap to exist as there is to not exist. The only difference is one benefits a set of players, the other benefits a different set.

Personally I think the better approach is to just remove gear entirely and make the whole game "for fun".

Well, considering the game is and always has been centered around gear, I would guess you're in the minority.

[kamuimac]

Yeah the people that find +15s easy got gifted their 226+ gear via mail for sure also, the things someone reads here.

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most of people who say how lol-easy +15 are are mythic raiders who have been farming 220 gear from GV and from raid for weeks now and who put in insane amount of hours played into game - not your average joes who just slowly get to +12-13 now.

if you think otherwise then sorry but you are extremly delusional .

its like i would say how "lol easy" +10/11 is for my alts. because thats the gameplay level skills i do have. and only limiting factor me me is a) gear b)gear on people whos groups i join.

i have yet to see how +12 is tuned because i havent been invited to a single +12 this season - not on my 217 Dh , not on my 212 Hunter , not on my 209 mage. - +11 - not a problem to get in - +12 equals to hours of declines untill i gave up.

and i bet i woudl also say how lol easy +12 is - thing is i will likely never check it this expansion with pugs. maaaybe my DH has chance after few more GV. but then i will probably cba to bother for +3 itlv on few pieces before next tier invalidates all gear i have.

KSM ? impossible for average player in pugs.

[Deianeira]

Q. So how does a casual obtain high end gear?
A. Before 9.0.5 - by doing their M10 key each week and waiting for the vault each week.
A. After 9.0.5 - they can't.

Just curious if you are a casual, what is your current gear? And what content do you do in WoW or would you want to do? I mean if you dont do raids and dont do M+ then what is the point of more gear? You dont ever need more then ~200ilvl if you are not doing raids or M+10 or higher. So what is the point? Or rather what would YOU want them to implement in the game for "content" ?

[ellieg]

most of people who say how lol-easy +15 are are mythic raiders who have been farming 220 gear from GV and from raid for weeks now and who put in insane amount of hours played into game - not your average joes who just slowly get to +12-13 now.

if you think otherwise then sorry but you are extremly delusional .

its like i would say how "lol easy" +10/11 is for my alts. because thats the gameplay level skills i do have. and only limiting factor me me is a) gear b)gear on people whos groups i join.

i have yet to see how +12 is tuned because i havent been invited to a single +12 this season - not on my 217 Dh , not on my 212 Hunter , not on my 209 mage. - +11 - not a problem to get in - +12 equals to hours of declines untill i gave up.

and i bet i woudl also say how lol easy +12 is - thing is i will likely never check it this expansion with pugs. maaaybe my DH has chance after few more GV. but then i will probably cba to bother for +3 itlv on few pieces before next tier invalidates all gear i have.

KSM ? impossible for average player in pugs.

Ksm is definitely not impossible for average pugs. I do 1-4 m+ a week and got KSM done. Spend 30 mins trying to get invited to +1 better than your previous for the dungeon. If that fails, start grinding your own key. Thats what I and thousands of other puggers do. You gotta play the rio game.

You arent owed an invite. As a non meta melee dps i learned that real fast. Start your own group and make friends.

[ClassicPeon]

And here is where your logic fails. You are ok with gear making raids/M+ easier, but for some reason, gear making WQs easier/faster is unthinkable?

No, you don't need gear. If you didn't have gear, people would be doing +15 or +10s or whatever was at the edge of their ability and tuning instead of +21s. Same shit.

Yes, gearing is fun. That's the point. It's fun even for people who you believe don't need it.

Gear is a reward. Just like most other rpg's you get the best gear from the endgame stuff.

Whats the fun in reaching the end game if you dont get a reward for it?

[chiddie]

Many people would argue any M+ below the gear cap is not difficult at all. And a dungeon only lasts 30~40 minutes because that's the amount of trash and bosses decided to put in them, also known as "reasons". Point being?




And wouldn't that still be achieved if more difficult challenges allow you to achieve the greater reward much faster?

I mean, would the current gearing system really be any worse, or any less rewarding, if you could also get a small amount of Valor from World Quests and buy gear with Valor as well? Let's say something like 20-30 Valor per WQ.

M+ would still be more rewarding as you can get the items for free and already partially upgraded, as well as awarding more Valor in a shorter amount of time, but people who only do WQ would have an extended progression path.




Why do you? Mythic raids can be clear in Heroic gear: no need for gear.
M+ can be cleared in 185ilvl gear: no need for M+ gear.
PvP would be balanced if everyone was locked at very low gear: no need for gear.

No one needs gear, if you look at it with that mindset. But it is a nice reward for everyone.




How shallow of you.



That's awfully generalistic. You don't really need that much gear or really spend that much time preparing to do a +2, for instance.

Of course they should both give rewards. If you're spending time completing multiple WQs, there is for sure an effort being made. Of course the more difficult activities should be more rewarding, it's just that "more rewarding" does not necessarily mean that the "maximum cap" of the reward must be not just higher, but so much higher as it is at the moment.



I don't want everyone to have gear, or to save anyone time. I just think the game would be better if everyone has a viable character power progression path even if they don't like Raiding, M+ or PvP. One that doesn't end in a few weeks in order to protect the egos of "skilled" players. That's all.

It’s not possible until the system is difficulty and reward. Solo content is too easy compared to group content to grant a tangible gear progression.

[Rucati]

There's as much reason for the gap to exist as there is to not exist. The only difference is one benefits a set of players, the other benefits a different set.

What's the reason the gap shouldn't exist?

It should exist because the more difficult/time consuming content should reward better gear. That's how everything in life works, the more effort/time you put into something the better the reward.

So why should people who do nothing but Torghast and world quests be rewarded with anything past 200 ilvl gear? They didn't work for it, they put in 0 effort, they put in less than an hour a week, there's virtually no reason they should be handed anything at all.

[kamuimac]

Ksm is definitely not impossible for average pugs. I do 1-4 m+ a week and got KSM done. Spend 30 mins trying to get invited to +1 better than your previous for the dungeon. If that fails, start grinding your own key. Thats what I and thousands of other puggers do. You gotta play the rio game.

You arent owed an invite. As a non meta melee dps i learned that real fast. Start your own group and make friends.

its devs job to ensure i have invites for whatever i want to do.

thats why wow is failing because people like you accept abusement they are reciving as something normal.

its wow devs jobs to ensure safe non toxic enviroment for all players

thats why wow is unpopular game nowadays. because devs dont care about players experience

normal people do not want to deal with what could be described as stockholm syndrom in your case.

normal people want to log in - join group and play game - instead spending 30 minutes experiencing constant declines.

i get it - there are some people irl who enjoy being kicked in the balls , repeatedly - but normal people dont enjoy such things. - similiarly in game when normal person experiences constant delines he stops playing such game

and that why over half of wow playerbase already left to play game where they can click 1 button and get invited to whatever they want to do - matched automaticly toplay with people with similiar experience with those games.

wow is failing badly for not delivering such experience in 2021.

[chiddie]

What's the reason the gap shouldn't exist?

It should exist because the more difficult/time consuming content should reward better gear. That's how everything in life works, the more effort/time you put into something the better the reward.

So why should people who do nothing but Torghast and world quests be rewarded with anything past 200 ilvl gear? They didn't work for it, they put in 0 effort, they put in less than an hour a week, there's virtually no reason they should be handed anything at all.

I think that we should be careful in how we use words: effort and difficulty are not synonymous.

The point is clearly not the effort: people who simply do all WQ every day put in a lot more effort than me that play 1-1,5 hours a day and not even all days, but that effort is canalized into an easy content. Mogs, pets, mounts are all things that require a hella lot of time and effort but again, they are not difficult, they simply require time. You have a 100% chance of “victory” because it’s a content that is not related to competition. There’s no skill required in obtaining Sha of Anger mount. It does require a LOT of time and effort but you can’t call it difficult. It’s difficult to drop it but that’s because retarded drop %, not because killing Sha is difficult.

It’s like asking yourself why horrible visions granted gear while Torghast does not: because horrible visions had a “measurable” difficulty (timer) and could not be run endlessly, while Torghast has no timer and you can run it endlessly.

I don’t even understand how can’t be clear that not all contents have the same difficulty thus they cannot be rewarded in the same way.

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its devs job to ensure i have invites for whatever i want to do.

thats why wow is failing because people like you accept abusement they are reciving as something normal.

its wow devs jobs to ensure safe non toxic enviroment for all players

thats why wow is unpopular game nowadays. because devs dont care about players experience

normal people do not want to deal with what could be described as stockholm syndrom in your case.

normal people want to log in - join group and play game - instead spending 30 minutes experiencing constant declines.

i get it - there are some people irl who enjoy being kicked in the balls , repeatedly - but normal people dont enjoy such things. - similiarly in game when normal person experiences constant delines he stops playing such game

and that why over half of wow playerbase already left to play game where they can click 1 button and get invited to whatever they want to do - matched automaticly toplay with people with similiar experience with those games.

wow is failing badly for not delivering such experience in 2021.

One thing I really never got is why, besides the manual LFD panel, there can’t be an automatic LFD panel for M+ too, just like we have for normal and heroics.

Just split the brackets in 4-5 groups, add a minimum ilvl requirement and voila. People obsessed with rio and meta will continue using manual grouping, all the rest will use the automatic queue. Maybe fails in automatic queues will be almost guaranteed, but this is not Blizzard’s fault.

[Zyrinx]

So M0 items are definitely upgrade eligible, which wasn't at all clear from the notes.

400 valor for 3 item levels though, yikes. If you're only getting VP from emissaries, it'd take a long, long, LONG time to upgrade a 184 drop.

Oh well, guess it's better than forcing M+

[kamuimac]

One thing I really never got is why, besides the manual LFD panel, there can’t be an automatic LFD panel for M+ too, just like we have for normal and heroics.

Just split the brackets in 4-5 groups, add a minimum ilvl requirement and voila. People obsessed with rio and meta will continue using manual grouping, all the rest will use the automatic queue. Maybe fails in automatic queues will be almost guaranteed, but this is not Blizzard’s fault.

for the same reason pvp cant get solo que even though they fight it for past 10 years

because people developing wow are ex/active mythic raiders who only care about mythic raiders having good experience in game.

[Deadite]

Well, you're wrong. WQs are not difficult content, but grinding hundreds of them is definitely, by definition, effort.

I do believe so. Not necessarily 220 gear, but definitely higher than 200 or whatever the cap is, it all depends on how its balanced. It wouldn't be fair if a single WQ just simply drops a 220 piece. It could be more than fair if you were able to get Valor from WQs, and eventually upgrade your WQ gear to 220 (for instance).

Because at the end of the day the people doing more difficult content would still get there much faster, with a lot less grinding, and almost certainly still with better loot overall (ie better trinkets, better stat optimization, etc) despite being of a similar ilvl.

Yeah the trouble is raiders throw a hassy fit over people getting terrible gear from LFR and want it removed. Can you imagine the tears if you could get good gear from Wq's? I don't do Mythic+ do valor is a dead currency for me but i don't care they added somehting that is no use to me to the game.

[Kolvarg]

It’s not possible until the system is difficulty and reward. Solo content is too easy compared to group content to grant a tangible gear progression.

Not only is it possible, it has been implemented in many different ways in the past.

What's the reason the gap shouldn't exist?

It should exist because the more difficult/time consuming content should reward better gear. That's how everything in life works, the more effort/time you put into something the better the reward.

So why should people who do nothing but Torghast and world quests be rewarded with anything past 200 ilvl gear? They didn't work for it, they put in 0 effort, they put in less than an hour a week, there's virtually no reason they should be handed anything at all.

You propose yourself that "the more effort/time you put into something the better the reward". Therefore, the more time you put into WQ/Torghast, the better the reward should be.

At the moment, the rewards for those activities cap quite low and very early, effectively breaking your own definition of how things should work.

Yeah the trouble is raiders throw a hassy fit over people getting terrible gear from LFR and want it removed. Can you imagine the tears if you could get good gear from Wq's? I don't do Mythic+ do valor is a dead currency for me but i don't care they added somehting that is no use to me to the game.

The tears would only make it that much tastier!

[chiddie]

Yeah the trouble is raiders throw a hassy fit over people getting terrible gear from LFR and want it removed. Can you imagine the tears if you could get good gear from Wq's? I don't do Mythic+ do valor is a dead currency for me but i don't care they added somehting that is no use to me to the game.

Well, tb entirely h, everyone has to “do things” in game that are useless for him.

For example I hate reps, they are a total waste of time for me and nonetheless I had to grind them for ages to unlock flying.

It’s simply not possible to have everyone 100% happy in a mmorpg.

[T-34]

for the same reason pvp cant get solo que even though they fight it for past 10 years

because people developing wow are ex/active mythic raiders who only care about mythic raiders having good experience in game.

Hmmm, and WoW was and still is the most successful MMO. Maybe those devs aren't totally wrong?
I mean I and millions of other people still play the game. I and millions of other people enjoy the game.

[Deadite]

It’s simply not possible to have everyone 100% happy in a mmorpg.

Yeah but in this game people seem to care more about what loot other people are getting. While keeping eveyone happy will be unachievable if people worried about what they were doing and what loot they were getting the place would be a just a smidgen happier imho.

[Argorwal]

its devs job to ensure i have invites for whatever i want to do.

thats why wow is failing because people like you accept abusement they are reciving as something normal.

its wow devs jobs to ensure safe non toxic enviroment for all players

thats why wow is unpopular game nowadays. because devs dont care about players experience

normal people do not want to deal with what could be described as stockholm syndrom in your case.

normal people want to log in - join group and play game - instead spending 30 minutes experiencing constant declines.

i get it - there are some people irl who enjoy being kicked in the balls , repeatedly - but normal people dont enjoy such things. - similiarly in game when normal person experiences constant delines he stops playing such game

and that why over half of wow playerbase already left to play game where they can click 1 button and get invited to whatever they want to do - matched automaticly toplay with people with similiar experience with those games.

wow is failing badly for not delivering such experience in 2021.

WoW went 5 years, and reached the peak of its popularity, before automated group making for dungeons was implemented.

You could almost make a case subs plateau and started going down with its implementation in 3.3.

How did this game get so popular with no group finder?

[chiddie]

Not only is it possible, it has been implemented in many different ways in the past.

I don’t recall having ever had a global ilvl near to top raiders/pvpers ilvl without top raiding or pvping but my really old expansions memories are fading as years pass by.

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Yeah but in this game people seem to care more about what loot other people are getting. While keeping eveyone happy will be unachievable if people worried about what they were doing and what loot they were getting the place would be a just a smidgen happier imho.

This is just normal since this game was, is and will be all about loot.

With this premise, it’s just normal that ppl who do the most difficult content with success want an advantage over ppl that just run around Oribos in circle.

[ellieg]

its devs job to ensure i have invites for whatever i want to do.

thats why wow is failing because people like you accept abusement they are reciving as something normal.

its wow devs jobs to ensure safe non toxic enviroment for all players

thats why wow is unpopular game nowadays. because devs dont care about players experience

normal people do not want to deal with what could be described as stockholm syndrom in your case.

normal people want to log in - join group and play game - instead spending 30 minutes experiencing constant declines.

i get it - there are some people irl who enjoy being kicked in the balls , repeatedly - but normal people dont enjoy such things. - similiarly in game when normal person experiences constant delines he stops playing such game

and that why over half of wow playerbase already left to play game where they can click 1 button and get invited to whatever they want to do - matched automaticly toplay with people with similiar experience with those games.

wow is failing badly for not delivering such experience in 2021.

Lol no it's not. You have a keystone. Make your own group. Its not that hard. Judging by your attitude it's easy to see why you haven't made any friends in the past 3 months to do keys with.

[neescher]

most of people who say how lol-easy +15 are are mythic raiders who have been farming 220 gear from GV and from raid for weeks now and who put in insane amount of hours played into game - not your average joes who just slowly get to +12-13 now.

I haven't stepped a foot in mythic raids this expansion, and I find +15s not that hard if there are 5 ppl in the group who know what they're doing.

i have yet to see how +12 is tuned because i havent been invited to a single +12 this season - not on my 217 Dh , not on my 212 Hunter , not on my 209 mage. - +11 - not a problem to get in - +12 equals to hours of declines untill i gave up.

The solution is simple: Make your own group. Alternatively, don't apply for groups outside of your league (in terms of raider io score and ilvl). If you apply to a group full of 1500s, they probably won't invite you if you're 800. I had no problem finding groups with my hunter alt, even when r.io wasn't linked to my main and he was around 200-205 ilvl. Of course I didn't apply for +12s when he was at 500 r.io score, I worked my way up. I can't imagine it being harder to find groups with a mage, because everyone knows how good mage is right now.

KSM ? impossible for average player in pugs.

Even *if* that were right (which it isn't), maybe - just maybe - KSM isn't meant to be obtained by average players in PUGs? Find new friends in pugs, add them to your friends list, find a guild, find like-minded players, and then achieve KSM with them. It's not that unreasonable for a MMO. It's not rocket science.