valor for casual

[Deadite]

With this premise, it’s just normal that ppl who do the most difficult content with success want an advantage over ppl that just run around Oribos in circle.

Dunno if you have noticed but they always have. People doing mythic raiding have always had the best gear/mounts/titles and all that is fair enough. You do the hardest content and you reap the best rewards. That is how it should be and it has always been like that. The fly in the ointment is when a large potion of those same people are utter wankers who cry that people get terrible loot from the easiest form of raiding and Wq's.

[bloodwulf]

its devs job to ensure i have invites for whatever i want to do.

thats why wow is failing because people like you accept abusement they are reciving as something normal.

its wow devs jobs to ensure safe non toxic enviroment for all players

thats why wow is unpopular game nowadays. because devs dont care about players experience

normal people do not want to deal with what could be described as stockholm syndrom in your case.

normal people want to log in - join group and play game - instead spending 30 minutes experiencing constant declines.

i get it - there are some people irl who enjoy being kicked in the balls , repeatedly - but normal people dont enjoy such things. - similiarly in game when normal person experiences constant delines he stops playing such game

and that why over half of wow playerbase already left to play game where they can click 1 button and get invited to whatever they want to do - matched automaticly toplay with people with similiar experience with those games.

wow is failing badly for not delivering such experience in 2021.

This might be one of the most entitled posts on MMO-C forums in a long time.

No its not the devs job to make sure you have invites. Its not even the developers jobs to give you tools to make the group, they just added that a long time ago to help.

You want a group, you get a key and make a group. You will get people signing up left and right. For instance, on my 160 geared tank yesterday, i threw a +2 TOP in the group maker. I had 30+ dps looking to join, the average item level? 211. We took a 220 warlock who joined because of easy valor. It is easier than ever to create a group because people are literally playing all level of keys.

Don't want to be declined, play a meta class with gear. Don't want to play a meta class, make your own group. You are entitled to nothing more. You have to be able to be slightly self-sufficient in this game. If making your own group is too difficult, join a guild and have someone else make the group. If that is too difficult, don't run M+ because you obviously have no need for the gear.

If another game does it differently, go play that game, doesn't mean WOW needs to do it. You can play FF14 and queue pretty much everything, but then you have to deal with glacial combat speed and essentially no hard mechanics.

[Frozenbeef]

Wouldn't even bother with wow if you only play casually, it's barely an rpg game anymore and on top of that blizzard insist on shoving mythic+ down everyone's throats.

[Niwes]

Forget about casuals. Every aspect of SL is broken, but only hardcore endgame gets fixes. Casuals aren't needed in this game anymore.

1) Torghast isn't self-sustained content. It doesn't have reward structure. Same problem, as with Isle Expeditions. You can do it for legendary. But if you don't need legendary, then only option is - doing it just for the sake of doing it.
2) WQs are only needed for anima, but anima grind is just rep grind 2.0. And I wasn't doing rep grinds exactly because they were unrewarding. Anima grind is even worse. It's considered xpack-wide grind. And therefore it suffers from BFA's syndrome. I.e. you can't do it on alts. And doing it on main only is pointless.
3) Only option remaining - to level alts. But it's so called "unlimited" content, i.e. not time-gated. It causes burning out, if it's way too tedious. And it's tedious without flying.

to be fair: this is true for any xpac since Legion, since they introduced their Hamsters Treadmill shit design.

depends on how you define casual:

1)
casual can be either defined as someone with less time invest (lets say 5-7 hours a week or so). in contrast to a hardcore player investing 20 hours or so, per week.

2)
casual are the ones that are „not good“ in the game. they dont read, dont know their spells, do low dps. in comtrast to a hardcore player that knows everything about WoW and his class and is doing 90th percentile.

i stick with the type 1 definition of casul here, for my explanation.

that said, lets compare TBC with SL under this aspect:

- in TBC you can do competitive raiding by: log in, raid, log out. without problems. try this in SL.
- in TBC you got your Valor Cap (dungeons i.e.) and your raid lockouts and you were done for that week.
etc.

i think you get what i mean. if you just want to progress your character and do the weekly stuff, in older Xpacs you did some dailies and the rest was raid or die. in modern game design, you have borrowed power systems affecting your char. you have to do azerite grinds, or collect best essences or grind best legendaries, or do thorghast, or progress Covenant, Conduits etc.

there are simple pros and cons here, with both variants (modern wow deisgn and old design):

- in old design, hardcore players had to do pvp or run alts or pet battle etc. when they were done with their main and had like 10 hours left of the week. while in new design they have always enough to do.

- in old design, casual players could just do their weekly raiding and some dungeons and were fine. in new design you have to invest way more time, when you wanna be competitive.

for hardcore players from a logical perspective the new design makes more sense, since 78% just play one solely main character (that number is from Ion around 4 years ago, you will find the blue post in the archives). when you play solely your single main class and wanna play 20 hours a week, you need something to do. Blizz started to target these ppl and this design with Legion and upwards. they know their data and i understand why they do it. but for a casual player this means the Treadmill effect has negative occurances.

[jazen]

I wish they'd just put the highest ilvl gear on the store for rl money (not token money). I've got more money than time, and even though I probably could play and get that gear, I'd prefer to buy.

[kamuimac]

Lol no it's not. You have a keystone. Make your own group. Its not that hard. Judging by your attitude it's easy to see why you haven't made any friends in the past 3 months to do keys with.

people dont want and never will want to make their own groups.

people would rather quit game then do that.

its blizzard's problem not people's problem to find solution

unless they want wow to shut down permanently .

[Zmagoslav]

Then why simultaneously pull the plug out from casual M+ runs ?

With one hand you are saying they are encouraging me to do M+ runs, and with the other hand making it almost impossible to do so.

Who got pulled out of what?
What keeps you from doing a key?

[OMGTwitchTV]

Im much like you. Ive been really casual since WoD now, while I may log in for abit I rarely am actually doing much aside from pottering around etc. Mythics I liked in WoD, but the M+ seemed so daunting I mostly avoided it until later BFA and even then usually only low keys (+5). My wife was very nervous too but weve begun running originally +3s and were a little worried doing our first +5 last week (both at ilvl 200 so well overgeared) simply because of a few bad groups. Now im thinking of trying to push for +10s especially with this new valor system to upgrade our gear once we get some new M+ items. Getting these few from callings is nice, because my less played alts are getting a little to use when I switch to playing them more later on etc.

Sounds like we have very similar stories, and I agree 100%. A few bad groups, or elitist jerks can be off putting. When I run M+, it is with guildies who are either confident in their ability to succeed and push the key, or do not care about the timer and simply want to finish it for the vault. There are still some amazing and helpful guilds and groups out there who will take those that might be intimidated and help build their confidence and their gear score. For all the talk about toxicity in this game, people seldom mention those few great players who are in it for their guildies, and not some world first bullshit. Glad to hear the two of you are enjoying it and pushing even harder for those upgrades.

[Argorwal]

people dont want and never will want to make their own groups.

people would rather quit game then do that.

its blizzard's problem not people's problem to find solution

unless they want wow to shut down permanently .

How did WoW exist for 5 years and grow into the most successful mmo of all time when it didn’t have automated grouping for dungeons and raids?

You could argue the game peaked and started downhill once automated grouping for dungeons came out in 3.3.

[ellieg]

people dont want and never will want to make their own groups.

people would rather quit game then do that.

its blizzard's problem not people's problem to find solution

unless they want wow to shut down permanently .

Lol then quit. Plenty of ppl still enjoy the game. It sucks for you that you don't and are too lazy and need to cry to mommy blizzard to hold your hand because you have no idea how to interact with other humans besides pushing a button and getting placed into a group with them but im sure even if they did that you'd still get kicked out of them or find something else to piss and moan about. Id hate to see how you are in real life

[chiddie]

people dont want and never will want to make their own groups.

people would rather quit game then do that.

its blizzard's problem not people's problem to find solution

unless they want wow to shut down permanently .

Dude this is just nonsense.

I have a good job offer under my nose but “I want that monthly wage without having to work, plz find a solution”. Really?

[Rucati]

You propose yourself that "the more effort/time you put into something the better the reward". Therefore, the more time you put into WQ/Torghast, the better the reward should be.

At the moment, the rewards for those activities cap quite low and very early, effectively breaking your own definition of how things should work.

You can't put more time into torghast or world quests. Torghast takes 30 minutes to go through both layer 8s, and world quests take like 3 minutes each. If it takes longer it's because you're purposely going slow, which is fine, if you want to watch TV while you play or something that's fair, but you can't get rewarded for doing things slowly. Unless you're trying to say that spending 50 hours in Torghast each week should get you mythic gear because of... reasons I guess.

[Ilookfly]

Maybe after months of nerfs. There is a reason you gear like hell early on in a tier. Its needed to beat the content. If you dont beat the content and put in the work you dont deserve the reward. Really simple. And no, doing hours of useless content is not putting in the work. You do not get rewarded for simply showing up.

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because you pay the same freaking subs money than the mythic raider and want to feel a progression of your character too ?

why is the gamed should be about only have to go in mythic raid and 15++++++++++++++++ key to feel that ?

its why the game is actually bad, devs think that only mythic thing are important in a mmo

You pay a monthly sub for the privilage and ability to partake in the game. Not for any guaranteed reward. Just showing up is not enough. Put in the work, progress your knowledge of bosses, mechanics and skills and you'll notice that your character will progress alongside you. If this does not resonate then wow is not for you.

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most of people who say how lol-easy +15 are are mythic raiders who have been farming 220 gear from GV and from raid for weeks now and who put in insane amount of hours played into game - not your average joes who just slowly get to +12-13 now.

if you think otherwise then sorry but you are extremly delusional .

its like i would say how "lol easy" +10/11 is for my alts. because thats the gameplay level skills i do have. and only limiting factor me me is a) gear b)gear on people whos groups i join.

i have yet to see how +12 is tuned because i havent been invited to a single +12 this season - not on my 217 Dh , not on my 212 Hunter , not on my 209 mage. - +11 - not a problem to get in - +12 equals to hours of declines untill i gave up.

and i bet i woudl also say how lol easy +12 is - thing is i will likely never check it this expansion with pugs. maaaybe my DH has chance after few more GV. but then i will probably cba to bother for +3 itlv on few pieces before next tier invalidates all gear i have.

KSM ? impossible for average player in pugs.

I got KSM a few weeks in to the xpac by only pugging through the dungeon finder... and i play havoc dh. Its not impossible...

[muto]

Forget about casuals. Every aspect of SL is broken, but only hardcore endgame gets fixes. Casuals aren't needed in this game anymore.

1) Torghast isn't self-sustained content. It doesn't have reward structure. Same problem, as with Isle Expeditions. You can do it for legendary. But if you don't need legendary, then only option is - doing it just for the sake of doing it.
2) WQs are only needed for anima, but anima grind is just rep grind 2.0. And I wasn't doing rep grinds exactly because they were unrewarding. Anima grind is even worse. It's considered xpack-wide grind. And therefore it suffers from BFA's syndrome. I.e. you can't do it on alts. And doing it on main only is pointless.
3) Only option remaining - to level alts. But it's so called "unlimited" content, i.e. not time-gated. It causes burning out, if it's way too tedious. And it's tedious without flying.

Go play Classic and you’ll come crawling back to retail after you realize how casual friendly Shadowlands is.

[LordTakeo]

people dont want and never will want to make their own groups.

people would rather quit game then do that.

its blizzard's problem not people's problem to find solution

unless they want wow to shut down permanently .

How do you explain classic wow then? What is wrong with you, it's an MMO, not an JRPG. You can't force anyone to play with/for you. Especially not with that attitude.

[Glorious Leader]

How do you explain classic wow then? What is wrong with you, it's an MMO, not an JRPG. You can't force anyone to play with/for you. Especially not with that attitude.

Classic wow was a game mostly played solo because for most people the entirety of the games content was the level grind.

[kamuimac]

How did WoW exist for 5 years and grow into the most successful mmo of all time when it didn’t have automated grouping for dungeons and raids?

You could argue the game peaked and started downhill once automated grouping for dungeons came out in 3.3.

by being the easiest mmorpg on the market - much much easier and much much casual friendly then anything aviable at that time.

want a list ?

you didnt loose exp when dying
you dint have to relevel when you died in instance on max level due to loss of exp
you didnt loose your equipeement when dying which others could simply pick up from your corpse
people couldnt ninja loot from mobs you killed when they died
people couldnt ninja gear from "bosses" that were killed by guilds by simply clicking faster
game was easy - as long as you were careful with pull single mob couldnt kill you really - unlike other games at that time
wow was basicly a mixture of what nowadays fb and twitch are - online community connecting nerds - and connecting people through very nice extremly intuitve for those times chat systems.
raids were easy and approachable - guilds could carry their weaker friends without any problems all the way untill Cata when things become to change for much worse

thats why wow become popular in 2004-2010 era.

because back then devs cared about everyone having good experience in their game - more - they cares about everybody having better gaming experience then in other games of that time.

nowadays its gone - interestingly other companies learned those lessons very well - thats why FF14 community is so good - because devs there care about every little jimmy-no-name having good gaming experience when he is playing that game. and it shows in game as people are much much nicer then people in wow.

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Go play Classic and you’ll come crawling back to retail after you realize how casual friendly Shadowlands is.

in 2021 ? sure you are 100% right

in 2004-2006 ? just lol. vanilla was ridiculed for being "to casual for real players"

[Argorwal]

by being the easiest mmorpg on the market - much much easier and much much casual friendly then anything aviable at that time.

want a list ?

you didnt loose exp when dying
you dint have to relevel when you died in instance on max level due to loss of exp
you didnt loose your equipeement when dying which others could simply pick up from your corpse
people couldnt ninja loot from mobs you killed when they died
people couldnt ninja gear from "bosses" that were killed by guilds by simply clicking faster
game was easy - as long as you were careful with pull single mob couldnt kill you really - unlike other games at that time
wow was basicly a mixture of what nowadays fb and twitch are - online community connecting nerds - and connecting people through very nice extremly intuitve for those times chat systems.
raids were easy and approachable - guilds could carry their weaker friends without any problems all the way untill Cata when things become to change for much worse

thats why wow become popular in 2004-2010 era.

because back then devs cared about everyone having good experience in their game - more - they cares about everybody having better gaming experience then in other games of that time.

nowadays its gone - interestingly other companies learned those lessons very well - thats why FF14 community is so good - because devs there care about every little jimmy-no-name having good gaming experience when he is playing that game. and it shows in game as people are much much nicer then people in wow.

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in 2021 ? sure you are 100% right

in 2004-2006 ? just lol. vanilla was ridiculed for being "to casual for real players"

What’s funny is Dark Age of Camelot had all of those things as well except losing experience, but you couldn’t de-level so once you were 50 you were 50 forever.

It’s funny that you mention how different actual vanilla was to classic. Which is literally the same game, but a different player and mindset.

Maybe the majority of WoW players do partake in end game content now? It’s a 16 year old game after all, it’s not a new fad for people who never heard of it to try.

It’s probably good FF is so different, people that prefer it can go play it. More options.

[Elkfingers]

i'm not saying you CANT do it without. I'm saying it makes a huge difference, and the data shows

Why why do you keep arguing it against me as if you are making a point?

Well no. All the data says is that most people gravitate towards certain choices. There could be any number of reasons for that separate from viability, not least the likelihood of getting accepted into pug groups influencing what people play/are able to play. You can't just decide that the cause of the data is whichever factor best supports your argument. Doesn't work like that.

Also you realise that the second bit you quoted was something you wrote, not me right?

If all you're now saying is that it's clearly doable on off-meta classes, but burst makes a difference, then you've backed so far off your original stance that you're over the fuckin horizon lol. If it's doable without on-meta burst classes, then that burst isn't 'vital' by any definition. We're now at 'it's nice to have', which literally nobody would disagree with.

[kamuimac]

Well no. All the data says is that most people gravitate towards certain choices. There could be any number of reasons for that separate from viability, not least the likelihood of getting accepted into pug groups influencing what people play/are able to play. You can't just decide that the cause of the data is whichever factor best supports your argument. Doesn't work like that.

Also you realise that the second bit you quoted was something you wrote, not me right?

If all you're now saying is that it's clearly doable on off-meta classes, but burst makes a difference, then you've backed so far off your original stance that you're over the fuckin horizon lol. If it's doable without on-meta burst classes, then that burst isn't 'vital' by any definition. We're now at 'it's nice to have', which literally nobody would disagree with.

burst is definetly one of most important factors this tier- because unlike 8.3 you dont have crazy corruptions carrying people couple of difficulties higher then their skills really are.

thats why you see so many people whine about 13-15 atm - because they have nothing to carry them - no TF , no corruptions , no azerite powers

what blizzard could have done is allowing 2nd legendary in 9.0.5 - this would alleviate it a bit - or make VP act different - for example adding extra 2x3 itlv to each piece of gear they wear.

but this time around blizzard is like - "deal with it"

so ... people deal with it - by taking only meta mega burst classes and even with the number of KSM took nosedive this tier.