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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    How did WoW exist for 5 years and grow into the most successful mmo of all time when it didn’t have automated grouping for dungeons and raids?

    You could argue the game peaked and started downhill once automated grouping for dungeons came out in 3.3.
    by being the easiest mmorpg on the market - much much easier and much much casual friendly then anything aviable at that time.

    want a list ?

    you didnt loose exp when dying
    you dint have to relevel when you died in instance on max level due to loss of exp
    you didnt loose your equipeement when dying which others could simply pick up from your corpse
    people couldnt ninja loot from mobs you killed when they died
    people couldnt ninja gear from "bosses" that were killed by guilds by simply clicking faster
    game was easy - as long as you were careful with pull single mob couldnt kill you really - unlike other games at that time
    wow was basicly a mixture of what nowadays fb and twitch are - online community connecting nerds - and connecting people through very nice extremly intuitve for those times chat systems.
    raids were easy and approachable - guilds could carry their weaker friends without any problems all the way untill Cata when things become to change for much worse

    thats why wow become popular in 2004-2010 era.

    because back then devs cared about everyone having good experience in their game - more - they cares about everybody having better gaming experience then in other games of that time.

    nowadays its gone - interestingly other companies learned those lessons very well - thats why FF14 community is so good - because devs there care about every little jimmy-no-name having good gaming experience when he is playing that game. and it shows in game as people are much much nicer then people in wow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Go play Classic and you’ll come crawling back to retail after you realize how casual friendly Shadowlands is.
    in 2021 ? sure you are 100% right

    in 2004-2006 ? just lol. vanilla was ridiculed for being "to casual for real players"

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    by being the easiest mmorpg on the market - much much easier and much much casual friendly then anything aviable at that time.

    want a list ?

    you didnt loose exp when dying
    you dint have to relevel when you died in instance on max level due to loss of exp
    you didnt loose your equipeement when dying which others could simply pick up from your corpse
    people couldnt ninja loot from mobs you killed when they died
    people couldnt ninja gear from "bosses" that were killed by guilds by simply clicking faster
    game was easy - as long as you were careful with pull single mob couldnt kill you really - unlike other games at that time
    wow was basicly a mixture of what nowadays fb and twitch are - online community connecting nerds - and connecting people through very nice extremly intuitve for those times chat systems.
    raids were easy and approachable - guilds could carry their weaker friends without any problems all the way untill Cata when things become to change for much worse

    thats why wow become popular in 2004-2010 era.

    because back then devs cared about everyone having good experience in their game - more - they cares about everybody having better gaming experience then in other games of that time.

    nowadays its gone - interestingly other companies learned those lessons very well - thats why FF14 community is so good - because devs there care about every little jimmy-no-name having good gaming experience when he is playing that game. and it shows in game as people are much much nicer then people in wow.

    - - - Updated - - -



    in 2021 ? sure you are 100% right

    in 2004-2006 ? just lol. vanilla was ridiculed for being "to casual for real players"
    What’s funny is Dark Age of Camelot had all of those things as well except losing experience, but you couldn’t de-level so once you were 50 you were 50 forever.

    It’s funny that you mention how different actual vanilla was to classic. Which is literally the same game, but a different player and mindset.

    Maybe the majority of WoW players do partake in end game content now? It’s a 16 year old game after all, it’s not a new fad for people who never heard of it to try.

    It’s probably good FF is so different, people that prefer it can go play it. More options.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    i'm not saying you CANT do it without. I'm saying it makes a huge difference, and the data shows

    Why why do you keep arguing it against me as if you are making a point?
    Well no. All the data says is that most people gravitate towards certain choices. There could be any number of reasons for that separate from viability, not least the likelihood of getting accepted into pug groups influencing what people play/are able to play. You can't just decide that the cause of the data is whichever factor best supports your argument. Doesn't work like that.

    Also you realise that the second bit you quoted was something you wrote, not me right?

    If all you're now saying is that it's clearly doable on off-meta classes, but burst makes a difference, then you've backed so far off your original stance that you're over the fuckin horizon lol. If it's doable without on-meta burst classes, then that burst isn't 'vital' by any definition. We're now at 'it's nice to have', which literally nobody would disagree with.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    Well no. All the data says is that most people gravitate towards certain choices. There could be any number of reasons for that separate from viability, not least the likelihood of getting accepted into pug groups influencing what people play/are able to play. You can't just decide that the cause of the data is whichever factor best supports your argument. Doesn't work like that.

    Also you realise that the second bit you quoted was something you wrote, not me right?

    If all you're now saying is that it's clearly doable on off-meta classes, but burst makes a difference, then you've backed so far off your original stance that you're over the fuckin horizon lol. If it's doable without on-meta burst classes, then that burst isn't 'vital' by any definition. We're now at 'it's nice to have', which literally nobody would disagree with.
    burst is definetly one of most important factors this tier- because unlike 8.3 you dont have crazy corruptions carrying people couple of difficulties higher then their skills really are.

    thats why you see so many people whine about 13-15 atm - because they have nothing to carry them - no TF , no corruptions , no azerite powers

    what blizzard could have done is allowing 2nd legendary in 9.0.5 - this would alleviate it a bit - or make VP act different - for example adding extra 2x3 itlv to each piece of gear they wear.

    but this time around blizzard is like - "deal with it"

    so ... people deal with it - by taking only meta mega burst classes and even with the number of KSM took nosedive this tier.

  5. #265
    everyone should type out their definition of casual before they make their post. that would solve like 95% of the back and forth

  6. #266
    fucking get in some normal nathria raids and upgrade your shit. stop being bad. if you're ilvl 190+ you shouldnt have a problem putting a normal group together, or even getting invited to a pug run. or just buy a run(with gold, of course ;D) and gear up that way.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by kaintk View Post
    if you dont do any mm+, valor you gain with wq and some quest has any purpose ?

    they are only to upgrade mm+ stuff right ? nothing to buy with them ?
    you can upgrades mythic 0 items, it's just more efficient to do m+ as you get higher base items.

    This system is just a gearing path for those who's end game content (or highest content) is mythic + dungeons.

    Raid stream, Dungeon stream, PVP stream

    Without any requirements e.g. achievements, you can get base mythic gear up to ilvl 200 so matching unranked PVP

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    fucking get in some normal nathria raids and upgrade your shit. stop being bad. if you're ilvl 190+ you shouldnt have a problem putting a normal group together, or even getting invited to a pug run. or just buy a run(with gold, of course ;D) and gear up that way.
    Haha, like the ones complaining would ever start their own group, invite other 190s in the same position, and communicate and work together to learn, improve, and clear content.

    Crying on forums is much easier.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    You can't put more time into torghast or world quests. Torghast takes 30 minutes to go through both layer 8s, and world quests take like 3 minutes each. If it takes longer it's because you're purposely going slow, which is fine, if you want to watch TV while you play or something that's fair, but you can't get rewarded for doing things slowly. Unless you're trying to say that spending 50 hours in Torghast each week should get you mythic gear because of... reasons I guess.
    You can't (or rather shouldn't) put more time into a Torghast run, or into any individual world quest.

    But you can put more time into Torghast as an activity, by doing multiple runs. And more time into WQs as an activity, by doing more WQs.

    Keep in mind the context of the thread: We're talking about valor points - the idea is you would be able to get Valor and use it to buy/improve gear to a level at least closer to high-end gear.

    It's not that after spending X minutes doing Torghast or WQs you'd get a mythic raid level drop. It's just that each Torghast run, each WQ, each raid boss kill, each calling, each M+, every first daily heroic dungeon - basically any PvE max level activity, would drop a certain amount of Valor appropriate to the difficulty and duration of the content, and you'd be able to not only upgrade but also buy gear with it.
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2021-03-15 at 11:25 AM.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    You can't (or rather shouldn't) put more time into a Torghast run, or into any individual world quest.

    But you can put more time into Torghast as an activity, by doing multiple runs. And more time into WQs as an activity, by doing more WQs.

    Keep in mind the context of the thread: We're talking about valor points - the idea is you would be able to get Valor and use it to buy/improve gear to a level at least closer to high-end gear.

    It's not that after spending X minutes doing Torghast or WQs you'd get a mythic raid level drop. It's just that each Torghast run, each WQ, each raid boss kill, each calling, each M+, every first daily heroic dungeon - basically any PvE max level activity, would drop a certain amount of Valor appropriate to the difficulty and duration of the content, and you'd be able to not only upgrade but also buy gear with it.
    So then do you think that you should get Valor for running around Oribos? Five valor per lap seems fair. Because running circles around Oribos is literally the exact same amount of effort as Torghast and world quests, so if those two activities give valor than everything else in the agme should as well.

    I don't really do world quests unless absolutely forced, I did some on my alt Rogue at 200 ilvl and literally killed every single mob in less than 3 seconds. Why in the world should that reward anything at all? It's entirely brainless and requires virtually no effort.

    If they're going to start giving people gear/valor for doing nothing then they should just go the mobile game route and give people gear for every X days they log in. Logged in 7 days in a row? Here's a 220 weapon. Why not? That's literally the equivalent of world quests and torghast.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    So then do you think that you should get Valor for running around Oribos? Five valor per lap seems fair. Because running circles around Oribos is literally the exact same amount of effort as Torghast and world quests, so if those two activities give valor than everything else in the agme should as well.
    Not really, it shouldn't. Not because it's "brainless" or "effortless", but for the same reason that killing a raid boss while wearing no gear does not give you any additional or improved loot, despite being much more difficult: it's not a supported endgame activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    I don't really do world quests unless absolutely forced, I did some on my alt Rogue at 200 ilvl and literally killed every single mob in less than 3 seconds. Why in the world should that reward anything at all? It's entirely brainless and requires virtually no effort.
    Because effort and difficulty is subjective. What is a brainless task that requires no effort to you might be the hardest thing some players are willing to involve themselves in. Equally, what you consider challenging might be considered by some players better than you to be incredibly easy and brainless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    If they're going to start giving people gear/valor for doing nothing then they should just go the mobile game route and give people gear for every X days they log in. Logged in 7 days in a row? Here's a 220 weapon. Why not? That's literally the equivalent of world quests and torghast.
    Because the point is not to get gear to players, but to make content all PvE content rewarding, allowing people to play what they like most and get rewarded by slowly improving their characters as they devote time to playing them.

    It really isn't such a complex concept if you're willing to look past that "noobs getting loot" mindset.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Not really, it shouldn't. Not because it's "brainless" or "effortless", but for the same reason that killing a raid boss while wearing no gear does not give you any additional or improved loot, despite being much more difficult: it's not a supported endgame activity.



    Because effort and difficulty is subjective. What is a brainless task that requires no effort to you might be the hardest thing some players are willing to involve themselves in. Equally, what you consider challenging might be considered by some players better than you to be incredibly easy and brainless.



    Because the point is not to get gear to players, but to make content all PvE content rewarding, allowing people to play what they like most and get rewarded by slowly improving their characters as they devote time to playing them.

    It really isn't such a complex concept if you're willing to look past that "noobs getting loot" mindset.
    Torghast and world quests also aren't "endgame activities", they're just chores you do when you're unable to participate in the actual endgame activities.

    And there's a 0% chance anyone considers world quests to not be brainless. I'm not some god tier Rogue, but it literally takes 4 button clicks to kill a mob (Shadowstrike -> Eviscerate -> Marked for Death -> Eviscerate), there's no player in the game that can possibly find that difficult. If someone can't click 4 buttons they couldn't have made it to level 60 in the first place, they probably couldn't even turn their computer on.

    All PvE content is currently rewarding. You can get 200 ilvl from just doing world quests and nothing else. How is that not good enough? I genuinely don't understand what purpose gear serves for people only doing world quests/torghast, it is 100% irrelevant and is very obviously not their concern. If someone really cares about gear they'll go do activities that give them gear.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Not really, it shouldn't. Not because it's "brainless" or "effortless", but for the same reason that killing a raid boss while wearing no gear does not give you any additional or improved loot, despite being much more difficult: it's not a supported endgame activity.



    Because effort and difficulty is subjective. What is a brainless task that requires no effort to you might be the hardest thing some players are willing to involve themselves in. Equally, what you consider challenging might be considered by some players better than you to be incredibly easy and brainless.



    Because the point is not to get gear to players, but to make content all PvE content rewarding, allowing people to play what they like most and get rewarded by slowly improving their characters as they devote time to playing them.

    It really isn't such a complex concept if you're willing to look past that "noobs getting loot" mindset.
    If we keep doing higher keys and mythic raids do we get to keep upgrading our 226 gear even further to feel that constant progression?

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    you are assuming SL will get 9.2 which due to sub losses may no longer be the case.

    remember how they axed whole raid tier in WoD ? and WoD lost less people then SL.
    Link showing sub losses and proving your claim please.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Torghast and world quests also aren't "endgame activities", they're just chores you do when you're unable to participate in the actual endgame activities.
    Everything in the game can be seen as "just chores". They are "endgame activities", plain and simple, regardless of what you think about them.

    Even if they were just chores, then why not improve them and make them endgame activities worty of anyone's time? Difficulty and mechanical challenge has never been the main focus of MMORPGs, so why should it be so limiting when it comes to progression paths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    If someone can't click 4 buttons they couldn't have made it to level 60 in the first place, they probably couldn't even turn their computer on.
    Ok, let's go to extreme examples then. Let's say that is true. Are you aware that there are people with physical disabilities that play WoW, for whom clicking 4 buttons might not be as straightforward as it is for you? How is the game any worse if they are able to, eventually, improve their gear ilvl to, let's say, Heroic Raid level?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    All PvE content is currently rewarding. You can get 200 ilvl from just doing world quests and nothing else. How is that not good enough? I genuinely don't understand what purpose gear serves for people only doing world quests/torghast, it is 100% irrelevant and is very obviously not their concern. If someone really cares about gear they'll go do activities that give them gear.
    It's rewarding, until it isn't. It's not a matter of the end result being good enough or not, it's a matter of very quickly no longer providing any meaningful power upgrades when compared to other activities.

    As I've said plenty of times in this thread before, gear is nice even if you don't need it. Just like you don't need Mythic raiding gear to clear Mythic raids, but they sure make it a lot more worth it and farming Mythic raids a lot more pleasant and satisfying.


    You constantly go on an on about people being obsessed with getting "gear they don't need", when you're doing exactly the same just in reverse, obsessing about what gears others are able to get. If you don't understand it, then try to ask questions that will clarify. You not understanding what other people feel/want is not a good basis for an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    If we keep doing higher keys and mythic raids do we get to keep upgrading our 226 gear even further to feel that constant progression?
    Can be implemented in different ways. During WotLK and afaik Cata you couldn't, in MoP you could, if I'm not mistaken.

    Of course there should always be a stopping point, we do want new content eventually
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2021-03-15 at 07:29 PM.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaintk View Post
    if you dont do any mm+, valor you gain with wq and some quest has any purpose ?

    they are only to upgrade mm+ stuff right ? nothing to buy with them ?
    Many people, myself included are pretty casual, but still do M+, even if it's only lower keys.
    I'm a crazy taco.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Ok, let's go to extreme examples then. Let's say that is true. Are you aware that there are people with physical disabilities that play WoW, for whom clicking 4 buttons might not be as straightforward as it is for you? How is the game any worse if they are able to, eventually, improve their gear ilvl to, let's say, Heroic Raid level?
    Why stop at heroic raid level gear? Let's give everyone 233 gear. It certainly won't make the game any worse, because giving out heroic gear for free doesn't and it's just the same argument there. Why invalidate only 2 raid tiers, when you can do it to all 4? There are people with disabilities or people who just aren't that good at the game, and it would be, like, REALLY unfair for them not to have the best gear in the game. People who enjoy mythic raiding can still raid mythic - their experience won't be worse just because other people get the same gear for free. They're doing it for the challenge, after all.

    No offense to people with disabilities, but you get my point

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Everything in the game can be seen as "just chores". They are "endgame activities", plain and simple, regardless of what you think about them.

    Even if they were just chores, then why not improve them and make them endgame activities worty of anyone's time? Difficulty and mechanical challenge has never been the main focus of MMORPGs, so why should it be so limiting when it comes to progression paths?



    Ok, let's go to extreme examples then. Let's say that is true. Are you aware that there are people with physical disabilities that play WoW, for whom clicking 4 buttons might not be as straightforward as it is for you? How is the game any worse if they are able to, eventually, improve their gear ilvl to, let's say, Heroic Raid level?



    It's rewarding, until it isn't. It's not a matter of the end result being good enough or not, it's a matter of very quickly no longer providing any meaningful power upgrades when compared to other activities.

    As I've said plenty of times in this thread before, gear is nice even if you don't need it. Just like you don't need Mythic raiding gear to clear Mythic raids, but they sure make it a lot more worth it and farming Mythic raids a lot more pleasant and satisfying.


    You constantly go on an on about people being obsessed with getting "gear they don't need", when you're doing exactly the same just in reverse, obsessing about what gears others are able to get. If you don't understand it, then try to ask questions that will clarify. You not understanding what other people feel/want is not a good basis for an argument.

    I don't get it, Blizzard doesn't give good rewards for Torghast and world quests specifically because they're just chores and not real content, yet you're here arguing that they're "endgame activities". Literally makes no sense.

    And anyone that's disabled to the point where they can't click 4 buttons isn't ever getting level 60 anyway so it hardly matters.

    Using that same logic though mythic raiding and PvP is rewarding... until it isn't. I have two characters at 227 ilvl, they will never get higher than that until 9.1. Should I be on the forums bitching that I can't get better gear and I'm done upgrading items? No, of course not, that would be stupid. I hit my cap because I don't raid mythic so I'll never get 233 gear (aside from weapons), just like people who only do world quests hit their cap at 200 ilvl. If I want to get to 229 or 230 I need to do the last two bosses on mythic, if people want to get to 205 or higher they need to do m+ or raid or arenas. It's not a difficult concept.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkfingers View Post
    Well no. All the data says is that most people gravitate towards certain choices. There could be any number of reasons for that separate from viability, not least the likelihood of getting accepted into pug groups influencing what people play/are able to play. You can't just decide that the cause of the data is whichever factor best supports your argument. Doesn't work like that.

    Also you realise that the second bit you quoted was something you wrote, not me right?

    If all you're now saying is that it's clearly doable on off-meta classes, but burst makes a difference, then you've backed so far off your original stance that you're over the fuckin horizon lol. If it's doable without on-meta burst classes, then that burst isn't 'vital' by any definition. We're now at 'it's nice to have', which literally nobody would disagree with.
    The reason people gravitate towards certain specs is that they are good.

    There is really no way around it. it happens every single tier.

    If you cant accept this then no rational discussion can be had with you

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    Why stop at heroic raid level gear? Let's give everyone 233 gear. (...)
    Is it so hard to understand that grinding Valor over the course of an entire patch is incredibly slower and less time-efficient than just actually doing high end M+ of raiding? No one would be getting "the same gear for free". You're so in love with your idea of your own eliteness of doing difficult content and therefore being better than the regular plebs that you can't even process a simple idea and have a normal conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    I don't get it, Blizzard doesn't give good rewards for Torghast and world quests specifically because they're just chores and not real content, yet you're here arguing that they're "endgame activities". Literally makes no sense.
    Funny how you switch between defending that Torghast/WQs are already rewarding and not giving good rewards as it fits whatever you're saying at the moment.

    They are activities you can only do at max level, therefore they are endgame activities. That's all


    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    And anyone that's disabled to the point where they can't click 4 buttons isn't ever getting level 60 anyway so it hardly matters.
    You'd be surprised.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Using that same logic though mythic raiding and PvP is rewarding... until it isn't.
    Of course. The difference is someone doing Mythic raiding PvP has had gear upgrades for months, and has only recently started to get close to no upgrades left. Most people probably can still upgrade a slot or two.

    Meanwhile Torghast never had meaningful rewards to begin with, and WQs have been close to obsolete for some 2+ months already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    if people want to get to 205 or higher they need to do m+ or raid or arenas. It's not a difficult concept.
    It's not a concept at all, it's just a fact at the moment. I'm not contesting that's what is happening at the moment, what kind of a bullshit argument is that? All I'm saying is it doesn't need to be like that, even arguably it shouldn't be like that. And that in the past it definitely wasn't like that, and it worked quite fine apart from a small minority crying that their leet gear wasn't special enough.
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2021-03-16 at 09:48 AM.

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