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  1. #281
    If you're not doing heroic+ raiding or mythic+ dungeons, Blizzard hasn't been interested in giving you a solid and enjoyable endgame since the end of MoP. At best, you're going to get content that gets exhausted in a few weeks. People acting like it's always been this way are weird. Until the last patch of MoP, you pretty much had a long-standing gearing path and pretty obtainable objectives, even as a turbo casual. Right now, almost all content is virtually worthless after a couple of weeks unless you do mythic+ or heroic raiding and up. I don't see how people are okay with this. Heroic dungeons are basically immediately worthless. Mythic 0 is basically ALMOST immediately worthless. WQs are almost immediately worthless. LFR is beyond immediately worthless. Normal dungeons are worthless. Normal raids are quickly worthless. To a casual, about the only thing with a modicum of worth is the covenant gear... And that's just boring. It drains almost all enthusiasm of running most low tier content, which in turn just drains your interest in doing most things. I don't think people like me want the world, or the best gear or whatever. We just want some sort of path to keep doing stuff in our chosen playstyle, the dopamine rush of leveling up some part of our characters. But that ship has sailed. A lot of us just need to quit, and figure out Blizzard doesn't give a shit about us anymore.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    If you're not doing heroic+ raiding or mythic+ dungeons, Blizzard hasn't been interested in giving you a solid and enjoyable endgame since the end of MoP. At best, you're going to get content that gets exhausted in a few weeks. People acting like it's always been this way are weird. Until the last patch of MoP, you pretty much had a long-standing gearing path and pretty obtainable objectives, even as a turbo casual. Right now, almost all content is virtually worthless after a couple of weeks unless you do mythic+ or heroic raiding and up. I don't see how people are okay with this. Heroic dungeons are basically immediately worthless. Mythic 0 is basically ALMOST immediately worthless. WQs are almost immediately worthless. LFR is beyond immediately worthless. Normal dungeons are worthless. Normal raids are quickly worthless. To a casual, about the only thing with a modicum of worth is the covenant gear... And that's just boring. It drains almost all enthusiasm of running most low tier content, which in turn just drains your interest in doing most things. I don't think people like me want the world, or the best gear or whatever. We just want some sort of path to keep doing stuff in our chosen playstyle, the dopamine rush of leveling up some part of our characters. But that ship has sailed. A lot of us just need to quit, and figure out Blizzard doesn't give a shit about us anymore.
    I dont really understand people limiting themselves like this.

    "We are a normal guild. We only do normal raiding. Once denathrius is on farm and everyone has what they want we are out of content".

    Why not just go do hc then?

    When has this game ever catered to people who didnt want to raid?

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    If you're not doing heroic+ raiding or mythic+ dungeons, Blizzard hasn't been interested in giving you a solid and enjoyable endgame since the end of MoP. At best, you're going to get content that gets exhausted in a few weeks. People acting like it's always been this way are weird. Until the last patch of MoP, you pretty much had a long-standing gearing path and pretty obtainable objectives, even as a turbo casual. Right now, almost all content is virtually worthless after a couple of weeks unless you do mythic+ or heroic raiding and up. I don't see how people are okay with this. Heroic dungeons are basically immediately worthless. Mythic 0 is basically ALMOST immediately worthless. WQs are almost immediately worthless. LFR is beyond immediately worthless. Normal dungeons are worthless. Normal raids are quickly worthless. To a casual, about the only thing with a modicum of worth is the covenant gear... And that's just boring. It drains almost all enthusiasm of running most low tier content, which in turn just drains your interest in doing most things. I don't think people like me want the world, or the best gear or whatever. We just want some sort of path to keep doing stuff in our chosen playstyle, the dopamine rush of leveling up some part of our characters. But that ship has sailed. A lot of us just need to quit, and figure out Blizzard doesn't give a shit about us anymore.
    M+2 is basically about as difficult as m0. Just requires you not to sit and discuss every single pull. What's stopping u from progressing past m0?

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    If you're not doing heroic+ raiding or mythic+ dungeons, Blizzard hasn't been interested in giving you a solid and enjoyable endgame since the end of MoP. At best, you're going to get content that gets exhausted in a few weeks. People acting like it's always been this way are weird. Until the last patch of MoP, you pretty much had a long-standing gearing path and pretty obtainable objectives, even as a turbo casual. Right now, almost all content is virtually worthless after a couple of weeks unless you do mythic+ or heroic raiding and up. I don't see how people are okay with this. Heroic dungeons are basically immediately worthless. Mythic 0 is basically ALMOST immediately worthless. WQs are almost immediately worthless. LFR is beyond immediately worthless. Normal dungeons are worthless. Normal raids are quickly worthless. To a casual, about the only thing with a modicum of worth is the covenant gear... And that's just boring. It drains almost all enthusiasm of running most low tier content, which in turn just drains your interest in doing most things. I don't think people like me want the world, or the best gear or whatever. We just want some sort of path to keep doing stuff in our chosen playstyle, the dopamine rush of leveling up some part of our characters. But that ship has sailed. A lot of us just need to quit, and figure out Blizzard doesn't give a shit about us anymore.
    Has it crossed your mind that you can, idk, try the harder content? no one started being a mythic raider, we were all memes once, but some of them actually try to step up their game and now they are hall of fame players, why stay in the easy mode? is there some imaginary gate or guardian that prevents you on tackling harder content?

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post
    Is it so hard to understand that grinding Valor over the course of an entire patch is incredibly slower and less time-efficient than just actually doing high end M+ of raiding? No one would be getting "the same gear for free". You're so in love with your idea of your own eliteness of doing difficult content and therefore being better than the regular plebs that you can't even process a simple idea and have a normal conversation.
    The funny thing is, I don't even do difficult content. I don't raid mythic and I usually don't push very high m+ keys. I'm totally fine with the concept that mythic raiders should have better gear than me, because they're doing harder content. On the other hand, I think people who only do world quest should have lower ilvl gear than me. I literally have no idea how this is "eliteness".

    If you do harder content, you get better rewards. It is like this in any other activity, and I have no idea why people are called elitist when they think it should be the same in wow.

    Now with 9.0.5 everyone can get 220 gear anyway, and as you said it just takes time. As the season goes on, more and more people will be able to finish 15s, or at least 10s for heroic raid level gear. Even if they can't, they always have the ability to buy the achievement and then upgrade all their gear from m0 and +2s.

    But why am I even arguing, all I get is personal attacks anyway because I'm so elitist I can't have a normal conversation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    If you're not doing heroic+ raiding or mythic+ dungeons, Blizzard hasn't been interested in giving you a solid and enjoyable endgame since the end of MoP. At best, you're going to get content that gets exhausted in a few weeks. People acting like it's always been this way are weird. Until the last patch of MoP, you pretty much had a long-standing gearing path and pretty obtainable objectives, even as a turbo casual. Right now, almost all content is virtually worthless after a couple of weeks unless you do mythic+ or heroic raiding and up. I don't see how people are okay with this. Heroic dungeons are basically immediately worthless. Mythic 0 is basically ALMOST immediately worthless. WQs are almost immediately worthless. LFR is beyond immediately worthless. Normal dungeons are worthless. Normal raids are quickly worthless. To a casual, about the only thing with a modicum of worth is the covenant gear... And that's just boring. It drains almost all enthusiasm of running most low tier content, which in turn just drains your interest in doing most things. I don't think people like me want the world, or the best gear or whatever. We just want some sort of path to keep doing stuff in our chosen playstyle, the dopamine rush of leveling up some part of our characters. But that ship has sailed. A lot of us just need to quit, and figure out Blizzard doesn't give a shit about us anymore.
    How did you progress as a casual in vanilla, BC or WotLK? I mean, the difficulty of vanilla raids is kind of a meme nowadays, but I can assure you no casual raided BWL in 2005. There were no heroic/mythic/m+ dungeons, no LFR raids, no world quests, no order hall campaign / war campaign / covenant campaign, there were no daily / weekly quests. What was there in vanilla that was so much better than what we have today?

    They introduced some of this stuff later on, like heroic dungeons in BC (which by the way were also not very casual-friendly), easier 10-man raids in WotLK, and daily quests with some incentive to work towards a goal, but I have no idea how anyone can say "turbo-casuals" had it better for the first 10 years of the game than they have it now.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    But why am I even arguing, all I get is personal attacks anyway because I'm so elitist I can't have a normal conversation
    Well maybe it's just me, but if you don't want to come across as elitist then I'd suggest adopting a more moderate tone as you had now, instead of barging into a conversation with sarcasm.

    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    On the other hand, I think people who only do world quest should have lower ilvl gear than me. If you do harder content, you get better rewards.
    The thing is those are not mutually exclusive concepts. You can have harder content give better rewards, without gatekeeping power progression from easier content.

    And it doesn't have to go farther than simply dropping a significantly greater amount of Valor on harder/longer content, which makes it objectively a greater reward. But there are many ways to do it to varying degrees, it's not black and white.

    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    Now with 9.0.5 everyone can get 220 gear anyway, and as you said it just takes time. As the season goes on, more and more people will be able to finish 15s, or at least 10s for heroic raid level gear. Even if they can't, they always have the ability to buy the achievement and then upgrade all their gear from m0 and +2s.
    I don't really see how 9.0.5 realistically makes gear more accessible in any way. The only thing it tackles is attempting to make all M+ runs somewhat rewarding (since you always get Valor even if you don't get any usable loot), and maybe makes it easier to get specific pieces since you can farm them on low levels and upgrade them.

    But realistically you're not really able to upgrade gear much farther than what you're already able to clear - by the time you manage to time all dungeons on +15 you'll probably not have many upgrades left anyway since you already get weekly 226 loot from even non-timed +14s anyway.


    And regardless, 9.0.5 applies exclusively to people who want/like to do M+ in the first place. So no, not everyone can get 220 gear.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Has it crossed your mind that you can, idk, try the harder content? no one started being a mythic raider, we were all memes once, but some of them actually try to step up their game and now they are hall of fame players, why stay in the easy mode? is there some imaginary gate or guardian that prevents you on tackling harder content?
    Because that harder content is full of people who basically despise us. And we don't like them either. Our type is also not particularly interested in gathering together, and the content itself is often so difficult, that it enables and encourages people to de-humanize each other in order to succeed.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Because that harder content is full of people who basically despise us. And we don't like them either. Our type is also not particularly interested in gathering together, and the content itself is often so difficult, that it enables and encourages people to de-humanize each other in order to succeed.
    Millions of people play this game, surely it's possible to find 4 like-minded people.

  9. #289
    Casuals need hard SOLO content, like horrific visions in BfA. 470 ilvl rewards back then so now we should get 230 ilvl.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    Millions of people play this game, surely it's possible to find 4 like-minded people.
    You'd be surprised. But I'm older now, and what was once easy and natural, now takes a punitive amount of effort and time. Wow players are also prone to saying one thing, and then doing another. Guilds are no exception.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by kaintk View Post
    if you dont do any mm+, valor you gain with wq and some quest has any purpose ?

    they are only to upgrade mm+ stuff right ? nothing to buy with them ?
    if you dont do the content that give you better gear you dont actually need the items in the first place, casual players have more than enough to do and can get a reasonable gear level from doing barely anything, just means you can build up valor to the cap without a need to spend it until further into the expansion.
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  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    You'd be surprised. But I'm older now, and what was once easy and natural, now takes a punitive amount of effort and time. Wow players are also prone to saying one thing, and then doing another. Guilds are no exception.
    There are so many threads of people in the same position with the same issue yet somehow none of them can find each other (or others in the same spot not in the forums) in game to run with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibiki View Post
    Casuals need hard SOLO content, like horrific visions in BfA. 470 ilvl rewards back then so now we should get 230 ilvl.
    470 was 5 item levels under the base mythic 475 gear, and equal to the last 2 bosses of heroic.

    That would be 220 now.

    Anyway, high gear reward solo content is the exception not the rule, and pretty much only happened in 1 patch of 1 expansion. And a final tier patch which lasts longer at that.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post


    Funny how you switch between defending that Torghast/WQs are already rewarding and not giving good rewards as it fits whatever you're saying at the moment.

    They are activities you can only do at max level, therefore they are endgame activities. That's all


    Of course. The difference is someone doing Mythic raiding PvP has had gear upgrades for months, and has only recently started to get close to no upgrades left. Most people probably can still upgrade a slot or two.

    Meanwhile Torghast never had meaningful rewards to begin with, and WQs have been close to obsolete for some 2+ months already.



    It's not a concept at all, it's just a fact at the moment. I'm not contesting that's what is happening at the moment, what kind of a bullshit argument is that? All I'm saying is it doesn't need to be like that, even arguably it shouldn't be like that. And that in the past it definitely wasn't like that, and it worked quite fine apart from a small minority crying that their leet gear wasn't special enough.
    Can you not read? I never once said Torghast/WQs are not giving good rewards. I've said the rewards are good enough this entire time. They require no effort and give hardly anything in return, which is exactly how it should work.

    I also don't know if you're just purposely not understanding why people don't like WQs and shit giving good rewards, or if you genuinely don't get the fact that people who already raid/PvP/m+ a lot don't want to go do WQs for gear. And before you say "Well WQ gear isn't for you" that's completely false. If WQs give good gear then everyone has to do them even if they already do other forms of content.

    That's why tedious and boring shit that doesn't require any effort or skill should never give decent rewards, it turns the game into a massive grind. That's why people disliked warforging/titanforging, when a world quest has a chance to give mythic quality gear it becomes a requirement to do it to be competitive. It makes the game objectively worse for people just so a handful of casuals can feel good about getting gear they did nothing to earn. It's one of the main reasons BFA was absolute garbage and it's far and away the best change they made in Shadowlands.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    There are so many threads of people in the same position with the same issue yet somehow none of them can find each other (or others in the same spot not in the forums) in game to run with?
    Yes, basically. We're not very good at organizing, and our schedules often don't line up with each other.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Because that harder content is full of people who basically despise us. And we don't like them either. Our type is also not particularly interested in gathering together, and the content itself is often so difficult, that it enables and encourages people to de-humanize each other in order to succeed.
    Low level M+ (0-2-3) are really not THAT difficult. You can’t semi afk like in normal or heroic but it won’t take that much to have a grasp of mechanics. Also if you’re around ilvl 200 you will vastly outgear them, making the experience even less frustrating (I am 208 and I am doing +11-12-13, and I assure you I’m not the smartest healer by miles, go figure...).

    Just give a try to M0 that have no timer, you will see that for yourself.

    I understand the frustration on hitting a gear wall when you get around ilvl 200, but max difficulty gear is only 20-25 ilvls above, you can’t just pretend to progress farther without any difficulty as you did till ilvl 200.

  16. #296
    A "casual" is a player who runs M0 dungeons at the most, no M+ at all. And maybe they'll do LFR, never step foot in Normal or above Raids.

    I love how nutjobs say yeah a casual player just run M+10 and below. LOL no. Mythic + 10 is [H]arcore territory

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Honest question, if you don't want to do m+, raids, or arena then what do you need gear for? You can clear layer 8 Torghast at 190 ilvl on every class, you can do world quests and the world boss without any gear on.

    Gear only exists to help you complete your objectives, if your only objective is to farm transmog or do world quests then you don't need gear. If you're trying to raid mythic, do +15 keys, or get Gladiator then you need gear, which is why those activities all reward gear.
    Random battlegrounds and warmode require gear and it feels pointless to participate right now because my sub-200 character has no chance against raiders and keystone runners. I used to be able to earn enough gear to survive and have a fighting chance playing random BGs but that is no longer the case so I feel like that game mode is locked to me. And since random BGs are something I've consistently enjoyed throughout all the expansions, I feel like I'm no longer welcome in WoW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Has it crossed your mind that you can, idk, try the harder content? no one started being a mythic raider, we were all memes once, but some of them actually try to step up their game and now they are hall of fame players, why stay in the easy mode? is there some imaginary gate or guardian that prevents you on tackling harder content?
    Social anxiety, confidence issues, and it's nearly impossible to find a kind and inclusive community that isn't worshipping the raiderio or warcraftlog machines. Being a struggling learning player who makes mistakes doesn't seem to be something that is allowed here.
    Last edited by Tadkins; 2021-03-16 at 07:26 PM.

  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    Social anxiety, and it's nearly impossible to find a kind and inclusive community that isn't worshipping the raiderio or warcraftlog machines. Being a struggling learning player who makes mistakes doesn't seem to be something that is allowed here.
    I'm going to be honest here: you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. No, not you, the community. So I do not understand why you continue to seek something from the community by all accounts you should know by now it cannot give you. To ask for what you want is hard enough from people IRL, let alone on the anonymous internet. Maybe if you were lucky you could find such things in WoW in the past, but that would have restricted you to social/leveling guilds most likely. I can only think of one guild I was in that might have approached this, truly laid back casual raiding guild, but even there, people had a little bit of an edge to them, particularly given how Legion onwards changed the game to make even "basic" content stressful (new Heroic/old normal raiding). My best suggestion is, either play WoW as a solo game and learn to adapt to the changes, or quit and use the extra time and money to get some anxiety reduction therapy/medication.
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  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Covenant quests reward valor and covenant quests are mostly "do some worldquests in zone x". Thats why i said "basically WQs".
    And i just find it strange to give such a specialized reward outside of the content it is used for.
    Valor can also be used to purchase the high end crafting material so it's not uniquely tied to gear. Not sure how many is in it, but it's a thing and as such it's fine being on callings as people who utterly refuse to do m+ have something they can use it on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    A "casual" is a player who runs M0 dungeons at the most, no M+ at all. And maybe they'll do LFR, never step foot in Normal or above Raids.

    I love how nutjobs say yeah a casual player just run M+10 and below. LOL no. Mythic + 10 is [H]arcore territory
    Except they stop becoming casual when they're in the game 24/7 as well. It's not casual then. It's a sheer refusal to play the actual combat content of the game.

    Also, you're equating casual with bad pretty much. You can be casual and clear m+ and heroic raids. Casual by definition is related to frequency. Nothing in the definition of the word implies what you seem to indicate.
    Last edited by ohwell; 2021-03-16 at 07:31 PM.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    Random battlegrounds and warmode require gear and it feels pointless to participate right now because my sub-200 character has no chance against raiders and keystone runners. I used to be able to earn enough gear to survive and have a fighting chance playing random BGs but that is no longer the case so I feel like that game mode is locked to me. And since random BGs are something I've consistently enjoyed throughout all the expansions, I feel like I'm no longer welcome in WoW.
    They don't really require gear at all, I've been doing BGs on my 140 ilvl alt and I've won just as many as I win on my 227 main. Mostly that's probably because I just AFK them regardless, but I get rewarded for it all the same. You can get 200 ilvl by doing nothing other than BGs, and that's plenty to compete because the other team will also have plenty of people at your ilvl. So sure you can't compete with mythic raiders and gladiator players, but you also shouldn't be able to. They've put far more time and effort into the game and have been rewarded for it.

    Besides, honestly, people are so bad gear doesn't even always matter. I'm 1400 on my 160 ilvl Resto Druid because all the 220 players are so terrible they lose regardless.

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