valor for casual

[chiddie]

A "casual" is a player who runs M0 dungeons at the most, no M+ at all. And maybe they'll do LFR, never step foot in Normal or above Raids.

I love how nutjobs say yeah a casual player just run M+10 and below. LOL no. Mythic + 10 is [H]arcore territory

Dude really, the most difficult thing about +10 is being invited if you’re not tank or healer. They are even easier than 7-8-9 due to prideful missing in that bracket.

[Rucati]

There should be templates or ilvl brackets if gear isn't going to be available. Right now, it's like if a heroic dungeon boss suddenly morphed into its +15 tyrannical variant. I just want a fighting chance in BGs (I've never AFKed in those) and not get stomped on all day with no hope of fighting back. Unless my opponents are all female characters in black leather transmogs but that's the only way I'd accept the system lols.

I actually agree that templates should exist and that gear should never matter in PvP. But since that will never happen I think it makes sense that grinding for gear gives you some kind of advantage over those that play the game far less and put in less effort. If gear just didn't exist then nobody would need to put in any effort and everyone would be equal and that'd be fair though, would also make playing alts significantly more fun.

[Tadkins]

I actually agree that templates should exist and that gear should never matter in PvP. But since that will never happen I think it makes sense that grinding for gear gives you some kind of advantage over those that play the game far less and put in less effort. If gear just didn't exist then nobody would need to put in any effort and everyone would be equal and that'd be fair though, would also make playing alts significantly more fun.

Which means participating in PvP is effectively not an option for me, if I'm going to spend most of it at the graveyard, and that in turn leads me to question whether I have a place in the game at all.

[Rucati]

Which means participating in PvP is effectively not an option for me, if I'm going to spend most of it at the graveyard, and that in turn leads me to question whether I have a place in the game at all.

Maybe it's because I think BGs are the worst content the game has, but I don't really see why it matters how much you die. Winning or losing a BG makes no real difference, and you'll always find at least a couple other people in the game with equal gear to you on the enemy team. So you can still do something by attacking them, and healers can have decent impact even with bad gear as long as your positioning is good.

I mean I guess it isn't very fun to be dead most of the game, but to be fair in BGs 90% of the time it isn't fun being alive either lol.

[Argorwal]

I actually agree that templates should exist and that gear should never matter in PvP. But since that will never happen I think it makes sense that grinding for gear gives you some kind of advantage over those that play the game far less and put in less effort. If gear just didn't exist then nobody would need to put in any effort and everyone would be equal and that'd be fair though, would also make playing alts significantly more fun.

Legion did this with templates and made gear almost meaningless and participation tanked hard.

Which is a surprise to nobody because this is an MMO based on character progression and not a lobby shooter or MOBA.

[tacoloco]

I'm confused about valor upgrades. I have an item that is upgradeable and I have the valor to upgrade it. But when I try, it tells me I need to complete all SL dungeons at +5 or higher, in timer. How does that help someone who isn't already grinding M+?

[Tadkins]

Maybe it's because I think BGs are the worst content the game has, but I don't really see why it matters how much you die. Winning or losing a BG makes no real difference, and you'll always find at least a couple other people in the game with equal gear to you on the enemy team. So you can still do something by attacking them, and healers can have decent impact even with bad gear as long as your positioning is good.

I mean I guess it isn't very fun to be dead most of the game, but to be fair in BGs 90% of the time it isn't fun being alive either lol.

That is all subjective. Random BGs are probably the one thing I've consistently had the most fun with all the way from the beginning of Vanilla, and for the most part I always felt like I had a place there. I used to be able to earn decent survivable gear in them, especially during the resilience eras, but this expansion is the only one where I feel like I don't belong.

I'm currently unsubbed because I don't have a working computer at the moment but when it is fixed, or I do get a new one, I really don't know if I should be coming back. It's clear Blizzard has nothing but contempt for players like me nowadays.

[chiddie]

I'm confused about valor upgrades. I have an item that is upgradeable and I have the valor to upgrade it. But when I try, it tells me I need to complete all SL dungeons at +5 or higher, in timer. How does that help someone who isn't already grinding M+?

It does not help because it’s made to help people that do M+ already.

[tacoloco]

It does not help because it’s made to help people that do M+ already.

I admit I didn't bother to look into how valor upgrades work. I just can't see myself doing that many M+5 dungeons for what might be
a marginal upgrade.

[Lurker1]

and this is what is wrong with wow atm

internet heroes deciding who is worth to play wow and who isnt

this is what Ion's decision alloed - rapid growth of extreme toxicity in game.

i have been repeating for years how badly hardcore players affect game - it reached its culmination point in 9.0.5 solely due to Ions decisions

unless blizzard fires Ion by 9.1 and changes game dirction 180 degrees they may have very big problems with 10.0 launch .

Well said!

[Alroxas]

its devs job to ensure i have invites for whatever i want to do.

Uh no. If you are fundamentally bad at some aspect of the game, nobody is required to bring you along. Especially in end-game challenging content.

because devs dont care about players experience

WT?? Seriously how can you say that? Valor being added to the game address one of the gearing progression issues for PvE. It's something that was added because of the feedback players gave repeatedly about how imbalanced PvP gearing was in-relation to gear progression in raiding.

In fact, we might even see PvP gear be more itemized towards PvP and less for PvE usage in future 9.x patches. If Blizzard devs didn't care about players experience why would they invest the time and effort to do such things?

normal people want to log in - join group and play game - instead spending 30 minutes experiencing constant declines.

And you can do this... Just CREATE YOUR OWN GROUP. You have a keystone no? Sure it might be a horrible Sanguine Depths but it's still your keystone so CREATE YOUR OWN GROUP. Then you're not waiting 30 minutes experiencing constant declines. If anything, you'll have the power to decline other people.

and that why over half of wow playerbase already left to play game

I'd like to see your proof of this. Blizzard doesn't release active users anymore so how are you able to tell exactly? Gut feeling? R.io measuring? Where is your proof?

Because without proof, we could also say that WoW is currently experiencing the post honeymoon lull just prior to another content patch and when 9.1 gets here MAUs will increase again (not quite diamond hands to the moon) to some degree before falling off again just as it has each time WoW has launched an expansion and added additional content via patches.

[Glorious Leader]

Legion did this with templates and made gear almost meaningless and participation tanked hard.

.

because its not about the need for gear and never has been which was why I brought up the template example. The developers could apply templates to all content and eliminate the need for gear. This would obviously be unsatisfying for everybody. So when jackasses on forums scream about how johnny casual world quest doesn't need gear that person is missing the point

[Alroxas]

One thing I really never got is why, besides the manual LFD panel, there can’t be an automatic LFD panel for M+ too, just like we have for normal and heroics.

Because M+ need for teamwork and coordination requires a bit more than just an ilv recommendation and key brackets. And given the affixes you want certain comps. No not just the META comps that you see in the MDI but general comps to provide more success in your runs. For instance, you'll want at least 1 class that can provide natural heroism/time warp/bloodlust because the drum equivalent is lesser. On some weeks, you might want more range/melee because the affix is less a problem for them. On other weeks, you may specifically want hunters/druids/rogues for their enrage counter ability. Battle rez, more interrupts/stuns, mob displacement, etc. Any number of specific utility functions that a group leader may want for their runs.

LFD can't offer that. Instead it just takes the first 3 dps and pairs them with a tank and a healer. Got all melee, sucks to be in your group on a sanquine or quaking affix week. Get all boomkins? Welp I guess you're not going to be able to chain interrupt spellcasters, hope your tank can pull off some great LoS pulls.

[munkeyinorbit]

Then why simultaneously pull the plug out from casual M+ runs ?

With one hand you are saying they are encouraging me to do M+ runs, and with the other hand making it almost impossible to do so.

Use your own key then it becomes super easy as the average to good players will scramble to be part of your group. My 192 lock 2 chested a 10 de other side this morning. All the other pugs were 210 plus. Easy. How did I get a 10? Last week I did my 2 then 4 then 6 then 8 then 10. Same strategy. Invite players that will crush the content.

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Why is "casual" synonymous with not wanting to do any content with even a modicum of difficulty?

When did "casual" literally mean bad player? It shouldn't. I'm a casual and I raid and do M+ I just pug both. Who are you to define me as a bad player?

It doesn't literally mean bad players. It means players who don't do hardcore content. I know good players who come for a couple of months. See the sights but then leave. They use to do hardcore content but they can't dedicate 3 hours at a time to a game anymore. They might do many 1hr sessions but that's hardly enough to start pushing keys or raid consistently.

I define you as a bad player based on your attitude. You're a hardcore player that thinks they're casual and act attacked when no one is attacking you.

[Edward Wu]

It doesn't literally mean bad players. It means players who don't do hardcore content. I know good players who come for a couple of months. See the sights but then leave. They use to do hardcore content but they can't dedicate 3 hours at a time to a game anymore. They might do many 1hr sessions but that's hardly enough to start pushing keys or raid consistently.

I define you as a bad player based on your attitude. You're a hardcore player that thinks they're casual and act attacked when no one is attacking you.

What a shitty argument. What does "hardcore content" even mean? You didn't even begin to define that, you just ran with it to make your garbage point because you wanted to dismiss me as the big meanie hardcore toxic guy.

I play this game 10 hours a week at most. I run a full-time job and have a side project in game design on top of it. There is nothing hardcore about what I do in WoW. The game's content has consistently become easier to fit in your schedule over the years and raiding guilds have slimmed down from 12 hour raid weeks to 6-8 now. Casual isn't a cope for your lack of ability to play WoW well.

[Argorwal]

because its not about the need for gear and never has been which was why I brought up the template example. The developers could apply templates to all content and eliminate the need for gear. This would obviously be unsatisfying for everybody. So when jackasses on forums scream about how johnny casual world quest doesn't need gear that person is missing the point

At some point gear progression stops for everyone until the next patch.

That isn’t unique to “casuals” or anything.

And for me that’s ok.

[Zorachus]

LOL at the people saying running M+ 10's is "casual" ha, man people are disconnected from reality.

"casual" players do World Quests, World Bosses, MAYBE some LFR, they run Heroic dungeons and MAYBE a Mythic 0 dungeon at the highest.

They certainly don't do harder content like M+10. And for anyone that thinks M+10 isn't hard, uh, hello for a casual that's super difficult stuff. Or someone else said just do easier content like current Heroic Raids. LOL really? Heroic raids are not for the casual whatsoever.

What planet do people live on that think Heroic Raiding and M+10 is easy and for casuals? News flash, it's not. Man the elitist shitty attitude of WoW players is why this game's in such a toxic state.

[Electric Lighter]

LOL at the people saying running M+ 10's is "casual" ha, man people are disconnected from reality.

"casual" players do World Quests, World Bosses, MAYBE some LFR, they run Heroic dungeons and MAYBE a Mythic 0 dungeon at the highest.

They certainly don't do harder content like M+10. And for anyone that thinks M+10 isn't hard, uh, hello for a casual that's super difficult stuff. Or someone else said just do easier content like current Heroic Raids. LOL really? Heroic raids are not for the casual whatsoever.

What planet do people live on that think Heroic Raiding and M+10 is easy and for casuals? News flash. it's not.

The question this begs is who cares?

Conquest isn't easy for unranked pvpers to get why should valor be easy for people who don't want to do the harder content?

[Glorious Leader]

At some point gear progression stops for everyone until the next patch.

That isn’t unique to “casuals” or anything.

And for me that’s ok.

The key phrase here is "at some point". Because that some point ends much sooner for some people than it does others.

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The question this begs is who cares?

Conquest isn't easy for unranked pvpers to get why should valor be easy for people who don't want to do the harder content?

Are you interested in keeping them as paid subscribers?no okay well see ya!

[Argorwal]

The key phrase here is "at some point". Because that some point ends much sooner for some people than it does others.

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Are you interested in keeping them as paid subscribers?no okay well see ya!

How fast it ends is relative to the speed of you clearing content.

For most people the harder the content the slower it goes, naturally. If you only do easy content it would go faster.

Still don’t see this as a problem. Actually it’s very natural. When you’re done it’s time for alts, non-progression/reward content like achievements and transmog, or just taking a break from the game.

WoW before Legion/BFA and games like FF recognized its normal and healthy to take breaks.