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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    I can assure you most people aren't going off the dictionary definition of casual lol.

    My definition of it has nothing to do with time. I don't do M+, Raid, or ranked PVP, I play 10+ hours a day though. In my book I'm casual, in others I'm not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Could be better to say queuers and non-queuers. If i can't hit a button and do it then i ain't gonna be doing it.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Devilyaki View Post
    Completely agree, this won’t make me go into m+ I hate m+ and only ever did it for the one or two quest that required it..
    To be fair, M0, aka non timed, mythic gear is upgradeable (this was abundantly not clear in the notes, but is true).

    So for 400 vp, or about 1.5 weeks of callings, you can upgrade one slot, by 3 item levels. To 187.

    ...

    Happy hunting?
    Last edited by Zyrinx; 2021-03-12 at 06:55 PM.

  3. #143
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigTone View Post
    Classic ego issues of some Mythic raiders. In some of their minds there is now way mythic+ can more difficult than mythic raid.
    Mythic raid progression you might be spending hours without killing a boss or seeing any loot at all. If you fail a 15 you still get loot and you can try again in another dungeon. Some bosses require 100+ pulls to go down and you keep the lockout so you don't have to reclear all the previous bosses again. It's not like you just waltz in there, kill every boss and get 226 loot.
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2021-03-12 at 08:54 PM.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    This is also working under the assumption that player is doing zero M0s, low M+ keys, low rated arena, etc. And without meaning to sound harsh, if you're doing absolutely none of that content, for whatever reason could you need higher than normal Nathria iLvl loot for?
    As it stands I don't do random battlegrounds or turn on warmode anymore because the gear I'm allowed to have is just going to get me eaten alive in any form of PvP content. That is why it was good to have gearing options if you can't join a raid or m+, because PvP requires it. It's depressing and it has made me lose interest in this game more and more every day because I feel like Blizzard has only contempt for players like me.

    I wish we had ilvl brackets or templates or something to ensure not every PvP encounter is a hopeless slaughter.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    So anything below mythic is casual?

    Normal/heroic raids

    Up to probably +10 keys

    Up to 1800 rated PvP

    And everything else, all available for the 90% of the player base casual masses?

    Sounds like a good deal to me. I think we are in agreement.
    I don't think you can raid mythic, successfully, and label yourself a casual. I'm sure I can be proven wrong with that statement, but overall, that's a huge time commitment for that type of content.

    But yes, Normal/Heroic raiding can be very casual, in my opinion. You can log in once or twice a week to raid, do random stuff whenever, and go about life without being fully committed to a schedule and still be successful in that content. There are a TON of people in guilds that raid mythic and are ilvl 220+ on average, and still can't clear Mythic. And we know it can be cleared at ilvl 206*, if you're good.

    Arena below 2200 is also casual in my opinion. Especially with how OP some comps are these days you don't need a ton of time/synergy/practice to make them work. ( Think DH or UDK / Prot PLD in BF )

    So I'm perfectly happy with Blizzard building the game for the casual folks, and not the mythic folks.

  6. #146
    The main problem with valor as a system is that people thought it would be a system that would help them gear themselves across the board. Some apparently hoped this would become their main gearing method throughout the expansion.

    The reality is that this system is a catch-up system mostly targeted at people exclusively doing m+ and will mostly help bring their lower / less lucky slots up to par with the rest of the items.

    If you're someone who at least does both the raid and the dungeons, and even more so a person who also do ocassional pvp - valor will be mostly useless for you.

    As for the "casuals"... SL offers quite nice progression for players only doing world content, including a set with a bonus that actually helps with said world content by providing bonuses while in the open SL world. If heroic raid ilvl is 213, then I think it's perfectly fine for someone who never does any raids to peak at about 205 ilvl.

  7. #147
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    The people "putting in all the work and effort" are gonna find themselves feeling good about themselves alone in a dead game lol.

    The casuals will all migrate over to a game that ticks MMO boxes but caters to the solo player at the same time and doesn't hold arbitrary prejudices that bleed over into the community.

    Eventually WoW will stop attracting new players because word of mouth will explain that everyone who plays for end game is mostly toxic.

  8. #148
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Casuals getting better gear is not an existential problem. It never has been. It never will be.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    The people "putting in all the work and effort" are gonna find themselves feeling good about themselves alone in a dead game lol.

    The casuals will all migrate over to a game that ticks MMO boxes but caters to the solo player at the same time and doesn't hold arbitrary prejudices that bleed over into the community.

    Eventually WoW will stop attracting new players because word of mouth will explain that everyone who plays for end game is mostly toxic.
    That boat sailed years ago. The game is now mostly people who check in for new expansions then check out after leveling and long-haulers. You could have written that post 10 years ago in the frantic days of "New MMO X will be a WoW-Killer." It's as wrong now as it was then.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  9. #149
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Casuals getting better gear is not an existential problem. It never has been. It never will be.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That boat sailed years ago. The game is now mostly people who check in for new expansions then check out after leveling and long-haulers. You could have written that post 10 years ago in the frantic days of "New MMO X will be a WoW-Killer." It's as wrong now as it was then.
    I didn't really believe it back then, so I wasn't writing it 10 years ago. I'm writing it now because I believe it, I'm a part of it and I can see it in my gaming communities, not just the echo chamber forums.

    Even Preach and Bellular have flipped. Your definition of wrong must just be wrong lol. (I didn't use any "wow killer" term, you inferred that with your own brain, which has nothing to do with my post. WoW dying on its own and WoW killer are 2 different things)

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    And you don't have data to back up the casuals claim that was made about them existing more.

    Much less it's been said more than enough on these forums that the claim I made was the case as testimonial which while anecdotal, the casuals are most often the ones not staying subbed.

    Also love the fallacy use later in your post there saying "the reasonable people" are the ones I agree with whereas the others are irrational. That literally just proves yourself wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Casuals are possibly the bigger playerbase, but most certainly not the bigger income base. The game is most certainly built to give them something, but it isn't built specifically for them in the long run nor should it be. They want who brings in the big bucks and it isn't casuals.
    You contradicted your own statement several times. Think before you type. Seriously.

    If there are more players playing casually, which there are, the monthly fees alone are going to support the game. As they have, for years. Considering that less than 4-5% of the entire player base ever kill more than 1 bosses in a mythic raid environment.

    But by your statement, those hardcore/mythic players that makeup 4-5% of the player-base, bring in more money than the 95-96% of players playing casually? Really?

    Let's say only one million folks are playing wow currently. I know more are playing, but let's use that number. Excluding taxes, please explain to me how you came to that conclusion?


    5% = 50,000 x $14.99 = $749,500 x 12 months = $8,994,000

    95% = 950,000 x $14.99 = $14,240,500 x 12 months = $170,886,000



    How is $9* million, more income than $171* million?

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    The main problem with valor as a system is that people thought it would be a system that would help them gear themselves across the board. Some apparently hoped this would become their main gearing method throughout the expansion.

    The reality is that this system is a catch-up system mostly targeted at people exclusively doing m+ and will mostly help bring their lower / less lucky slots up to par with the rest of the items.

    If you're someone who at least does both the raid and the dungeons, and even more so a person who also do ocassional pvp - valor will be mostly useless for you.

    As for the "casuals"... SL offers quite nice progression for players only doing world content, including a set with a bonus that actually helps with said world content by providing bonuses while in the open SL world. If heroic raid ilvl is 213, then I think it's perfectly fine for someone who never does any raids to peak at about 205 ilvl.
    I agree about some players expectations about valor, but Blizzard was extremely clear it was for mythic+

    Below is the first blue post announcement regarding valor, and it’s explicit it’s mythic+:


    “We’ve seen a lot of feedback about the pros and cons of the various sources of gear in the Shadowlands endgame. After a rewarding first few weeks, we know that many dungeon-focused players reached a point where the only relevant rewards from the system come from the Great Vault. While the Vault should represent a major goal and the source of the best rewards the endgame has to offer, we want to find a way for the loot from the chest at the end of a challenging Mythic Keystone run to feel relevant, without bringing back random upgrade systems such as Warforging, which partially solved this problem in the past. We also want to provide a more consistent reward for the effort for players who do not receive an item at all.

    The framework for a system that attempts to address these goals should be present in this first PTR update, subject to ongoing tuning and refinement. Gear from Mythic Keystone Dungeons is now upgradeable, initially with a cap of item level 200, which players can raise to item level 207 by completing all eight Shadowlands dungeons at Mythic 5 or higher. This will award a new “Keystone Explorer” achievement, while the existing “Keystone Conqueror” achievement (for all +10s or higher) will increase the cap to item level 213, and then to item level 220 by completing the “Keystone Master” achievement for all +15s in time. The currency used to upgrade Mythic Keystone gear is Valor, which is earned from completing Mythic Keystone dungeons, or by doing covenant Callings, with a weekly cap. Upgrade costs will vary by item slot and will be consistent across all item levels.”


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    I didn't really believe it back then, so I wasn't writing it 10 years ago. I'm writing it now because I believe it, I'm a part of it and I can see it in my gaming communities, not just the echo chamber forums.

    Even Preach and Bellular have flipped. Your definition of wrong must just be wrong lol. (I didn't use any "wow killer" term, you inferred that with your own brain, which has nothing to do with my post. WoW dying on its own and WoW killer are 2 different things)
    Streamers basically survive by being critical and describing issues of a game. There is no drama and interest to just say something is good.

    This appears as flip-flopping, but it’s just a normal entertainer protocol.

    And people have quit the game forever for a million different reasons, it’s normal and natural for any video game (or hobby in general).

  12. #152
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post

    Streamers basically survive by being critical and describing issues of a game. There is no drama and interest to just say something is good.

    This appears as flip-flopping, but it’s just a normal entertainer protocol.

    And people have quit the game forever for a million different reasons, it’s normal and natural for any video game (or hobby in general).
    Thank you for the obvious info everyone already knows and the most utmost pointless post, thank you for that. (Bellular isn't even a streamer.)

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    Thank you for the obvious info everyone already knows and the most utmost pointless post, thank you for that. (Bellular isn't even a streamer.)
    Glad you agree that you initially bringing it up was pointless.

  14. #154
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Glad you agree that you initially bringing it up was pointless.
    I didn't agree on that and what I brought up was about casuals migrating over to better games instead of "putting in tons of work to feel good about themselves".

    So basically you just put words in my mouth while also changing the subject. Nice one.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    Any thread related to the Valor system is bound to have a fair few posts in it complaining about how casual players are being left behind by the game, but is that really the case? Without joining a single premade group & just using the queue system you can get the following:

    • 197 Order Hall Items
    • 207 World Boss Items
    • 200 Reputation Items
    • 200 PvP Items (that are actually usable in PvE unlike earlier expansions)
    • + more BoEs than in any previous expansion I can remember

    To counter the above, it's fair to say professions are absolutely dead for casual & non-casual players alike, apart from perhaps the Darkmoon trinkets which can be another handy +iLvl 200 piece.

    Based on the above, without stepping into a single form of non-LFG content (or even buying BoEs), someone can achieve an average item level similar to that of Castle Nathria normal... & this is supposedly Blizzard leaving the casual playerbase behind? Where you can completely nullify the need to raid the normal tier for iLvl progression? This is also working under the assumption that player is doing zero M0s, low M+ keys, low rated arena, etc. And without meaning to sound harsh, if you're doing absolutely none of that content, for whatever reason could you need higher than normal Nathria iLvl loot for?

    Was Blizzard's mistake calling it Valor? I've seen people asking for Wrath style badge systems & MoP/WoD style upgrade systems, but I don't really think either are the answer. Thinking back to 3.3.5 when the group finder was added, if you did nothing but LFG random dungeons & some professions, you were getting nowhere near the item level of a normal raider at the time, even if you could buy a few items from the vendor - Hell, you'd struggle to get near the item level of someone who raided the previous tier (I should know, as I played super casual during that period, struggling to pug past 7/12 ICC N each week )

    As for a MoP style system, all it does is add gear inflation to the game, which either leads to massive powerspikes between tiers (& also forces the need for stat-squishing earlier on), or makes it so people raiding the higher difficulties are already going to be far ahead of what the casual players can hope to achieve in the next patch.

    So, was Blizzard's mistake simply just calling it Valor? Is there something I'm forgetting? It's been a long 15 years or so playing this game, so forgive me if I've left something important out.

    PS: I don't care what gear anyone has, as to me it's just a tool rather than the reward. I'm making this thread because the pity party going on right now just makes no sense to me, as I can't remember a time where players across the spectrum would get as much gear as this.

    Cheers
    Everything you listed stops at 200, so casuals are supposed to get normal raiding gear and basically then just stop and be behind everyone else? Do you know how many invites a 200 ilvl player gets? none. Do you know which mythic keys a 200ilvl player gets ? 2-3.
    Saying valor was a mistake because some players are able to catch up alts and others with less time are able to get normal ilvl raiding loot when there's still 30 ilvls to get, is ignorant.
    Go away, you're dumb. Always making moronic posts

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    Everything you listed stops at 200, so casuals are supposed to get normal raiding gear and basically then just stop and be behind everyone else? Do you know how many invites a 200 ilvl player gets? none. Do you know which mythic keys a 200ilvl player gets ? 2-3.
    Saying valor was a mistake because some players are able to catch up alts and others with less time are able to get normal ilvl raiding loot when there's still 30 ilvls to get, is ignorant.
    Go away, you're dumb. Always making moronic posts
    It’s amazing how those low 200 players are never able to just group up with each other and progress together in a chill, casual environment.

    Especially when people keep saying they are the vast majority.
    Last edited by Argorwal; 2021-03-12 at 10:24 PM.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    It’s amazing how those low 200 players are never able to just group up with each other and progress together in a chill, casual environment.

    Especially when people keep saying they are the vast majority.
    I'd like to find people like that, but it's not always easy. I've been trying to find a good, inclusive, kind, non-judgmental guild or community for the last few months. I'm convinced at this point they don't exist and that every group is going to worship the warcraftlog or raiderio machine.

  18. #158
    This was always going to be a side effect of removing titan/warforging. In Legion/BFA you could infinitely fish for item upgrade procs even as a mega casual who never partook in premade group content. Now in SL there is essentially a 200ish ilvl hard cap for non premade players.

    The best items should always come from high end group content, but there should be something for the casuals to feel like they're at least making a little progress in their characters.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by varren View Post
    This was always going to be a side effect of removing titan/warforging. In Legion/BFA you could infinitely fish for item upgrade procs even as a mega casual who never partook in premade group content. Now in SL there is essentially a 200ish ilvl hard cap for non premade players.

    The best items should always come from high end group content, but there should be something for the casuals to feel like they're at least making a little progress in their characters.
    Pretty much. When casuals stop progressing, they find other games where they can. They don't have to have Mythic items, but if they can't get over 200 doing what they're doing, telling them that's all they get just means they'll leave.

    Blizzard's call at this point.

    I guess it depends if Blizzard makes more from the 'I DESERVE' faction, or the more casual people. Only they know.

    I have already moved on for at least six to eight months. I'm enjoying myself elsewhere with no assholes telling me to roll fotm, etc.

    If I stop in eight months from now, and casuals have no way to catch up other than M+ and raiding, then that will be the end of SL for me completely.
    Last edited by agm114r; 2021-03-12 at 11:28 PM.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    I'd like to find people like that, but it's not always easy. I've been trying to find a good, inclusive, kind, non-judgmental guild or community for the last few months. I'm convinced at this point they don't exist and that every group is going to worship the warcraftlog or raiderio machine.
    Just start your own group and don't invite anyone over 200

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