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  1. #181
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    Well after they bombarded Darnassus they lost that right in my eyes.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And if we didn't have the context of "The Legion is literally, currently, invading our world FROM Argus" surrounding it, yes, we'd have that crisis to deal with.

    If the enemy isn't our enemy FIRST, us invading and taking over their lands literally is a crisis of morality from the "good guys."
    The Forsaken have been the enemy of the human kingdoms for many years, guilty of many crimes against them. Just like the Legion, only at a smaller scale. So there is no crisis of morality when we take over their land. Good to see you agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    The Ebon Blade haven't become mass murderers? Last I checked, Death Knights literally NEED to kill in order to not feel like their entire being is tearing them apart.
    I am not saying they are not killing. But they are not murdering farmers to steal their land, then bury them as human saplings, or abuse them for experiments. They are not blighting cities to take them from their rightful owners. The Ebon Blade has been in the buisness of defending the planet from the Lich King, the Legion and now the forces of Death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    When? The story as told suggested Sylvanas sent envoys long before she started ordering people to kill humans, and she's the one who founded the Forsaken.
    You are literally mentioning it yourself. Or did Garithos entire army commit suicide? No, they were slaughtered by the Forsaken when Sylvanas did not want to uphold her deal with him. Hundreds of Humans and Dwarfs murdered, before SW ever heard the term "Forsaken".
    According to the deal Sylvanas herself struck, Lordaeron belonged to the remnants of the kingdom lead by Garithos. Her betrayal of the deal only makes it more obvious that the land never legitimately belong to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    No leader of any political group goes in person to a meeting they know is likely to kill them. That's rather simple minded of you to consider.
    Considering she can "banshee out" whenever she wants, I'd say the threat to her was small. But even then, sending a ghoul was making sure that it would fail.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    The Forsaken have been the enemy of the human kingdoms for many years, guilty of many crimes against them. Just like the Legion, only at a smaller scale. So there is no crisis of morality when we take over their land. Good to see you agree.
    By that same logic, the Human kingdom has been the enemy of the undead kingdoms for their entire existance, guilty of many crimes against them. So there is no crisis of morality when Forsaken plague and experiment on Humans. Good to see you agree.

    I am not saying they are not killing. But they are not murdering farmers to steal their land, then bury them as human saplings, or abuse them for experiments. They are not blighting cities to take them from their rightful owners. The Ebon Blade has been in the buisness of defending the planet from the Lich King, the Legion and now the forces of Death.
    But as we just established above - The humans are enemies of the Forsaken, and so all of that is ok, isn't it?

    You are literally mentioning it yourself. Or did Garithos entire army commit suicide? No, they were slaughtered by the Forsaken when Sylvanas did not want to uphold her deal with him. Hundreds of Humans and Dwarfs murdered, before SW ever heard the term "Forsaken".
    Because she saw through his ruse, where he was going to do the exact same thing to her.

    You're looking at a coin with two heads symbols and asking where the tails is. There is no tails. Both sides were shitty, neither was "right" and they both DESERVED to be betrayed. Garithos just happened to be the losing side in that bout, because he was incompetent on top of his shitty attitude.

    If you're on the betraying side, you don't get to complain when you get betrayed.

    According to the deal Sylvanas herself struck, Lordaeron belonged to the remnants of the kingdom lead by Garithos. Her betrayal of the deal only makes it more obvious that the land never legitimately belong to her.
    Sylvanas tells people what they want to hear, if that hasn't been made entirely clear already.

    Considering she can "banshee out" whenever she wants, I'd say the threat to her was small. But even then, sending a ghoul was making sure that it would fail.
    This is looking at her future powers and applying them to her in the past. Doesn't work. Not only do we not know if she COULD do that then, but we don't know if SHE even knew she would eventually be capable of it back then.

    And yes, it's dumb. It's not a bright plan. But that's how Sylvanas has always acted. She wanted to know if the Humans would trust the undead, so she sent an OBVIOUSLY undead envoy on her behalf, knowing if they found out she was undead herself while she was in their care, she was doomed. Yes, this ensured the humans saw it as only an undead - But in her opinion, they would have seen her the exact same way. Which is not unfounded given how the Humans STILL react to her.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-03-14 at 11:12 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    By that same logic, the Human kingdom has been the enemy of the undead kingdoms for their entire existance, guilty of many crimes against them. So there is no crisis of morality when Forsaken plague and experiment on Humans. Good to see you agree.
    Yeah I mean if you consider warcrimes like murdering civilians and experimenting on them as normal and fine then sure. Guess I should not have assumed a Horde defender to have a normal viewpoint, ever. My mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    But as we just established above - The humans are enemies of the Forsaken, and so all of that is ok, isn't it?
    See above. Guess defending the Forsaken means one has to somehow ignore their crimes or relativate them to make it somehow acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Because she saw through his ruse, where he was going to do the exact same thing to her.
    There exists not a shred of proof for this. On the other hand we know Sylvanas was gonna betray the humans from the moment she made the deal. But hey, everything is fair game to defend those walking murdering corpses right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    You're looking at a coin with two heads symbols and asking where the tails is. There is no tails. Both sides were shitty, neither was "right" and they both DESERVED to be betrayed. Garithos just happened to be the losing side in that bout, because he was incompetent on top of his shitty attitude.

    If you're on the betraying side, you don't get to complain when you get betrayed.
    Again you are making up evidence to support your point. We never heard any plan of Garithos to betray the Forsaken, we only know of one planned betrayal. Pure and simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    This is looking at her future powers and applying them to her in the past. Doesn't work. Not only do we not know if she COULD do that then, but we don't know if SHE even knew she would eventually be capable of it back then.
    Uhm, no. The Bansheeing was always part of her powers because she IS a Banshee possessing a corpse (her own).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And yes, it's dumb. It's not a bright plan. But that's how Sylvanas has always acted. She wanted to know if the Humans would trust the undead, so she sent an OBVIOUSLY undead envoy on her behalf, knowing if they found out she was undead herself while she was in their care, she was doomed. Yes, this ensured the humans saw it as only an undead - But in her opinion, they would have seen her the exact same way. Which is not unfounded given how the Humans STILL react to her.
    Oh it wasn't dumb. It wa calculated. Her clout over the Forsaken only works as long as they are not accepted by others. So she used the fears of the human empire to generate "proof" that the Forsaken could only ever turn to her.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    Well after they bombarded Darnassus they lost that right in my eyes.
    Does that mean that e.g. Germans no longer have a right to live in Germany because they bombed the everliving crap out 3/4 of Europe?
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Does that mean that e.g. Germans no longer have a right to live in Germany because they bombed the everliving crap out 3/4 of Europe?
    They have no right to live in Pommern and Ostpreussen any more (unless they comply to the law of the current owners of that land [Poland]). So what's your point?
    Last edited by Plehnard; 2021-03-15 at 12:36 AM.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plehnard View Post
    They have no right to live in Pommern and Ostpreussen any more (unless they comply to the law of the current owners of that land [Poland]). So what's your point?
    I mean in general, not in one or two specific cities. So what is your point? Btw I am already aware that a part of Germany was annexed by Poland at the end of WWII, thanks for nothing oh wise one.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  8. #188
    When will the night elves get Teldrassil back?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Does that mean that e.g. Germans no longer have a right to live in Germany because they bombed the everliving crap out 3/4 of Europe?
    They still have Hillsbrad, Alterac, Silverpine.

  9. #189
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Does that mean that e.g. Germans no longer have a right to live in Germany because they bombed the everliving crap out 3/4 of Europe?
    Germany didn't nuke and abandon Berlin because they didn't want the allies to have it...
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Germany didn't nuke and abandon Berlin because they didn't want the allies to have it...
    The other guy was talking about Darnassus, not about the UC.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I still say forsaken living in the hollowed out husk of Teldrassil would be fitting.
    That's rad as hell. In full support of that.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I mean in general, not in one or two specific cities. So what is your point? Btw I am already aware that a part of Germany was annexed by Poland at the end of WWII, thanks for nothing oh wise one.
    Germany would have been cut down quite a bit more than that if not for the Cold War and the US wanting to use them as a bulwark against communism.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    The other guy was talking about Darnassus, not about the UC.
    My point is Germans didn't abandon Germany to the allies, can't really lose claim on something you didn't abandon
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  14. #194
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    Let's pivot away from real-world geopolitics and history, and back to the fantasy-based discussion of Forsaken lands and their ownership.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #195
    Honestly, Lordaeron doesn't make a ton of sense to try and take back. It's not exactly ideally located to be terribly defensible and requires the Horde to seriously stretch supplies in order to take and keep it.

    What would make a lot more sense is if the Forsaken and the Blood Elves teamed up to retake Stratholme and repurpose that as a home for the Forsaken. Then work at taming the rest of the Eastern Plaguelands. This way, in case of conflict, the Horde can also send reinforcements to Silvermoon and then to Stratholme. It has the added benefit of being further away from Ironforge and Stormwind, and also Gilneas (should the Worgens ever make an attempt to retake it).

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Actually Dalaran, the scarlet crusade, arugal, the syndicate, various ogres, the scourge and likely many more did dispute that, all the way back in vanilla already.
    Killing the rightful owners does not automatically make you the rightful owner. It becomes even iffier if the ones making claims are dead themselves.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The alliance literally bulldozed most of the stuff that wasn't blighted, and i'm unsure of the fate of the rest.

    Though yeah, the forsaken should still control what's left, though the remnants might have gotten purged by the Scarlets just as easily.
    thats exactly how property work, human conquered troll lands, scourge conquered human lands, forsaken conquered scourge lands...
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Dastreus View Post
    When will the night elves get Teldrassil back?
    afaik its uninhabited right now

    *insert-free-real-estate-meme*

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Yeah I mean if you consider warcrimes like murdering civilians and experimenting on them as normal and fine then sure. Guess I should not have assumed a Horde defender to have a normal viewpoint, ever. My mistake.

    See above. Guess defending the Forsaken means one has to somehow ignore their crimes or relativate them to make it somehow acceptable.
    Forsaken have a naturally skewed view of humanity, given that they're, well... undead.

    Didn't think I'd have to explain that, but here we are I guess. If you can't look at a situation and read it properly, don't come argue on a lore forum, thanks.

    But yes, this is a common trope with undead, the don't value humanity because they have none. Their morality doesn't account for humanity because they have none. Experimenting on humans is no different than experimenting on rats to them, because humans are no different than rats when it comes to literal undead.

    There exists not a shred of proof for this. On the other hand we know Sylvanas was gonna betray the humans from the moment she made the deal. But hey, everything is fair game to defend those walking murdering corpses right?
    Literally the entirety of WC3 spelled that out for you, but ok, deny lore if you feel like it.

    Uhm, no. The Bansheeing was always part of her powers because she IS a Banshee possessing a corpse (her own).
    And yet she just decided, even when close to death in Icecrown, not to use it.

    You're pulling heavily at straws which just aren't there. Not only does her being a Banshee not automatically grant her insane levels of power, nor the ability to just nope-out of any situation (We've fought many Banshees who had no such power), but even if it DID, there's no telling how long it took her to master such a power, nevermind that it would be an entirely DIFFERENT situation as a Banshee with a body. (She spent the entirety of Arthas' charge through Quel'thalas, up to the moment that Illidan attacked the Frozen Throne, as JUST a Banshee with no body. Then she had to go GET her body, as she had only just broken free of Arthas' control.)

    Oh it wasn't dumb. It wa calculated. Her clout over the Forsaken only works as long as they are not accepted by others. So she used the fears of the human empire to generate "proof" that the Forsaken could only ever turn to her.
    She didn't even want to lead the Forsaken prior to killing herself at Icecrown, so that doesn't make ANY sense.

    She wanted revenge on Arthas. The Forsaken were a tool towards accomplishing that. She didn't need them to fear her - She literally just said "I'm gonna go kill the guy who did this to you" and they all rallied underneath her.

    It was AFTER Icecrown and her apparent meeting with the Jailer that she shifted to wanting to rule the Forsaken. There was a clear shift in the way she governed them that proved this. The Forsaken were mostly given leave to do whatever they desired (Yes, including torturing humans, nobody said that wasn't WRONG morally, but to THE FORSAKEN, it was just payback for atrocities committed against them.) until after Icecrown, when suddenly all undead had to be ok with being raised first, asked if they wanted to be raised later. It was after Icecrown when suddenly there was no Desolate Council allowed. It was after Icecrown that she suddenly became scared of a "true leader" of Lordaeron showing up, or that she might die again (when she previously wished for it), or that she should even get involved in Horde/Alliance politics beyond joining the Horde for safety reasons.

    Nothing pre-Icecrown gives you any idea that she gives a shit about the Forsaken serving her, aside from them getting her revenge on Arthas. And nothing pre-Icecrown requires the Forsaken to think nobody will accept them - In fact, most places just didn't. Sylvanas didn't need to do anything to make that happen. But even putting that aside, the Forsaken acted against Arthas pre-Icecrown, and would continue to act against Arthas so long as he lived and potentially held some semblance of control over them.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-03-15 at 07:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Forsaken have a naturally skewed view of humanity, given that they're, well... undead.

    Didn't think I'd have to explain that, but here we are I guess. If you can't look at a situation and read it properly, don't come argue on a lore forum, thanks.

    But yes, this is a common trope with undead, the don't value humanity because they have none. Their morality doesn't account for humanity because they have none. Experimenting on humans is no different than experimenting on rats to them, because humans are no different than rats when it comes to literal undead.
    Oh dear! They are undead? I had no idea! Thought that was just a bad skin condition...

    I know they are and I know they view humans and really all living things with jealousy and hate. Since that is so, the question is: Why do you expect anyone to return their lands to them? Their morality doesn't account for the living, but everyone else's does. You basically argue to let creatures settle close to human civilisation that in your own words see no difference between killing humans or rats. Why would ANYONE be okay with that?
    This is exactly the same view as the Legion demons have of others and I don't think anyone in their right mind would let demons take over a piece of Azeroth to settle and build up a military force there.

    Basically you are making a great case for why the Forsaken should be eradicated as soon as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Literally the entirety of WC3 spelled that out for you, but ok, deny lore if you feel like it.
    Garithos was a racist douche, no doubt. But there is no evidence this extended to the Forsaken, mainly because Sylvanas never gave him the chance. I agree that he might have tried something, because he was such a bastard, but this is all circumstantial evidence. We just assume he would go that way because of his treatment of the Elves and Dwarfs, know of no plan to betray the Forsaken. Meanwhile we have clear evidence that Sylvanas was plotting against the humans from the start, we have her own words for that.

    In another threat I laid out that Garithos, being the sociopathic ass he is, might even see value in the control of undead and decide to actually join Sylvanas given the chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And yet she just decided, even when close to death in Icecrown, not to use it.
    If you mean when she jumped from the top, then duh, of course she didn't use it since she wanted to die. Or do you mean in that dungeon when running away from the Lich King? Simple game mechanics, she didn't because she was needed for the fight. You might as well ask why Jaina did not teleport us away immediatedly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    You're pulling heavily at straws which just aren't there. Not only does her being a Banshee not automatically grant her insane levels of power, nor the ability to just nope-out of any situation (We've fought many Banshees who had no such power), but even if it DID, there's no telling how long it took her to master such a power, nevermind that it would be an entirely DIFFERENT situation as a Banshee with a body. (She spent the entirety of Arthas' charge through Quel'thalas, up to the moment that Illidan attacked the Frozen Throne, as JUST a Banshee with no body. Then she had to go GET her body, as she had only just broken free of Arthas' control.)
    It's actually not that hard to explain. Banshee's are ghosts, they are incorporeal and they do not stand they float and thus can fly. Those are just basic facts of their existence. The bigger question really is how our swords can kill any Banshee, not just Sylvanas. Probably again a point where game mechanics trump lore. The only thing special about Sylvanas is that she can somehow turn her undead body incorporeal too, but nothing suggests that this is a new power.
    I mean remember how in front of Orgrimmar Jaina and Thalryssa were talking about whatever she used to kill Saurfang, they were confused because they clearly had not seen that kind of power before, but no one was surprised when she shot up in the sky neither there nor at Lordaeron and in both cases very experienced and knowledgeable people were there to question it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    She didn't even want to lead the Forsaken prior to killing herself at Icecrown, so that doesn't make ANY sense.

    She wanted revenge on Arthas. The Forsaken were a tool towards accomplishing that. She didn't need them to fear her - She literally just said "I'm gonna go kill the guy who did this to you" and they all rallied underneath her.
    She didn't want to lead them as a true leader but she needed them to follow her commands, hence they had to flock to her. She puts it perfectly in "Edge of Night", the Forsaken digusted her, but their need empowered her. That "need" would be taken away if anyone else had been offering them refuge and with that her power would have been broken. So demonstrating how humans would kill them on sight was very beneficial to her, even if it cost a few of her soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It was AFTER Icecrown and her apparent meeting with the Jailer that she shifted to wanting to rule the Forsaken. There was a clear shift in the way she governed them that proved this. The Forsaken were mostly given leave to do whatever they desired (Yes, including torturing humans, nobody said that wasn't WRONG morally, but to THE FORSAKEN, it was just payback for atrocities committed against them).
    What atrocities are you even talking about? Nobody even knew they existed after they murdered Garithos and the blight creation began immediatedly afterwards with human test subjects. So tell me what ever did the humans do to the Forsaken in that time span that justifies these actions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    until after Icecrown, when suddenly all undead had to be ok with being raised first, asked if they wanted to be raised later. It was after Icecrown when suddenly there was no Desolate Council allowed. It was after Icecrown that she suddenly became scared of a "true leader" of Lordaeron showing up, or that she might die again (when she previously wished for it), or that she should even get involved in Horde/Alliance politics beyond joining the Horde for safety reasons.

    Nothing pre-Icecrown gives you any idea that she gives a shit about the Forsaken serving her, aside from them getting her revenge on Arthas. And nothing pre-Icecrown requires the Forsaken to think nobody will accept them - In fact, most places just didn't. Sylvanas didn't need to do anything to make that happen. But even putting that aside, the Forsaken acted against Arthas pre-Icecrown, and would continue to act against Arthas so long as he lived and potentially held some semblance of control over them.
    Does Sylvanas strike you as someone that just hopes for things to turn out the way she wants? No, she hates hope, she plans and schemes until the deck is so stacked that things go her way. Yes, it was a pretty safe bet that only weeks after the Scourge a Ghoul walking into a human city would be killed and questions asked later. Accepting the Forsaken as something else would be difficult, it required a real explanation and a negotiator. Why did Sylvanas not send a letter first and an envoy later? Because she did not want to succeed. Plain and simple.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Oh dear! They are undead? I had no idea! Thought that was just a bad skin condition...

    I know they are and I know they view humans and really all living things with jealousy and hate. Since that is so, the question is: Why do you expect anyone to return their lands to them?
    Because they are rightfully theirs. Their morality literally doesn't change who the land belongs to, that's what I've been saying.

    Their morality doesn't account for the living, but everyone else's does. You basically argue to let creatures settle close to human civilisation that in your own words see no difference between killing humans or rats. Why would ANYONE be okay with that?
    Because the undead weren't doing that at the time.

    They started experimenting on humans only after being rejected by Stormwind and hunted by the Scarlet Crusade. Their "families" (Read: The nobility of Stormwind, but unfortunately that ends up applied to the rest of their ilk as well) rejected them. Humans tried to drive them out of their homes, simply for the crime of existing in a cursed state.

    You're really bad at reading the timeline, I'm noticing. Things which happen in the future don't necessarily apply to the past.

    Garithos was a racist douche, no doubt. But there is no evidence this extended to the Forsaken, mainly because Sylvanas never gave him the chance. I agree that he might have tried something, because he was such a bastard, but this is all circumstantial evidence. We just assume he would go that way because of his treatment of the Elves and Dwarfs, know of no plan to betray the Forsaken. Meanwhile we have clear evidence that Sylvanas was plotting against the humans from the start, we have her own words for that.

    In another threat I laid out that Garithos, being the sociopathic ass he is, might even see value in the control of undead and decide to actually join Sylvanas given the chance.
    And the last line he says to Sylvanas before getting killed proves your previous thread incorrect. Go ahead, look it up - What does Garithos say to Sylvanas just before he dies?

    (Spoiler: He tries to kick her out of Lordaeron, so obviously he WASN'T going to group up all buddy buddy with the Forsaken.)

    If you mean when she jumped from the top, then duh, of course she didn't use it since she wanted to die. Or do you mean in that dungeon when running away from the Lich King? Simple game mechanics, she didn't because she was needed for the fight. You might as well ask why Jaina did not teleport us away immediatedly.
    Conveniently doesn't use ultra mega power to escape literal scenario in which she is dying, "OBVIOUSLY GAME MECHANICS" because it doesn't fit your view.

    You're really bad at this.

    Snip
    This is a lot of headcanon. Got a canon source for it, or are you just pulling it out of your ass? (Spoiler: I know it's the latter.)

    She didn't want to lead them as a true leader but she needed them to follow her commands, hence they had to flock to her. She puts it perfectly in "Edge of Night", the Forsaken digusted her, but their need empowered her. That "need" would be taken away if anyone else had been offering them refuge and with that her power would have been broken. So demonstrating how humans would kill them on sight was very beneficial to her, even if it cost a few of her soldiers.
    Oh, would you look at that! In the short story in which she literally changed her viewpoint - She changed her viewpoint!

    You're right, that totally gives you the right to apply that to every moment prior to that, obviously, because characters don't have formative moments like this short story, they must have just always been that way.

    What atrocities are you even talking about? Nobody even knew they existed after they murdered Garithos and the blight creation began immediatedly afterwards with human test subjects. So tell me what ever did the humans do to the Forsaken in that time span that justifies these actions?
    1) Immediate rejection from Stormwind when the Forsaken attempted to reach out to them.
    2) Immediate repudiation for their existance in Lordaeron's ruins, as if the living had any claim to the ruins they abandoned.
    3) The Scarlet Crusade in general, which exists and is present IN TIRISFAL as of Vanilla WoW.

    Do I need to go on? I can.

    Does Sylvanas strike you as someone that just hopes for things to turn out the way she wants? No, she hates hope, she plans and schemes until the deck is so stacked that things go her way. Yes, it was a pretty safe bet that only weeks after the Scourge a Ghoul walking into a human city would be killed and questions asked later. Accepting the Forsaken as something else would be difficult, it required a real explanation and a negotiator. Why did Sylvanas not send a letter first and an envoy later? Because she did not want to succeed. Plain and simple.
    Again: You're taking future lore and applying it to a past version of herself which doesn't make sense for her to apply it to.

    Stop that. You're making yourself look silly.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-03-16 at 08:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

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