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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    This is just my two cents, tho. Feel free to bash.
    No need to bash, cus I see alot of good ideas here, but personally I am more of a fan of the location of Stratholme. It has a very usefull spot like mentioned before next to their blood elf allies. I am talking about forsaken working together with the argent crusade and the blood elves and take stratholme as their base.

    Close to quel'thalas, strong walls and already a city, makes like the perfect place. I do realy like the idea of crusaders getting into stratholme as well just because it is such a rich place of lore for them.

    Not a fan of a second undercity tho, I like them to move on and use their Blood elf allies, who helped them back in the day when they were first introduced in the ghostlands.

    One thing to notice, which would also be super convenient is the place were we had our death knight intro experience in wrath. That whole place Tyrs hand or something is a full on city behind the mountains that used to be scarlet crusade ground. They even have alot of options for harbors and such. That is also close to quel thalas.

    Anyway the main point is that imo EPL offer alot of realy strong options for the forsaken that surpasses Alterac.
    I like your thinking about the cold that would help the forsaken, but that was never a problem so I dont count that.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Night elves were allowed to relocate to Hyjal and conquered Darkshore in a one sided scenario. When will the playable undead get their own scenario for Tirisfal? Lordaeron belongs to the forsaken always and forever. No i don’t want replies from alliance zealots. Stay out of my topic.
    Forsaken relocated Silverpine Forest and Hillsbrad Foothills and remain in Sepulcher and Tarren Mills
    The End
    Worgen have Gilneas back (probably)
    Humans have Westfall (but yes, it's still burning, Sentinel Hill turned into Stratholme 2.0)
    no scenario is needed for it

    Blizz simply does not apply it to game. only lore

  3. #263
    Over 9000! Kyphael's Avatar
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    When do Gilneans get their land back?

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Night elves were allowed to relocate to Hyjal and conquered Darkshore in a one sided scenario. When will the playable undead get their own scenario for Tirisfal? Lordaeron belongs to the forsaken always and forever. No i don’t want replies from alliance zealots. Stay out of my topic.
    "their lands"

    Which are "their lands" exactly? the forsaken are dead humans, dead people don't have any lands. They were brought back from the dead to serve arthas/lich king, they invaded Strat/Tirisfal/Lordereon/Silverpine. Technically they don't own or are entitled to any lands. NOW with the return of Calia and whatever the fuck is going on with her, she does have rights to those lands. I'm not sure exactly if she's dead...or...some weird ass shit Blizzard is doing. But, unlike sylvannas she does actually have a claim to all that shit. It'd kind of be cool if we see a reformed WPL/EPL, it's a little weird those 2 zones have remained untouched for so long. The lights hope chapel has been there for like 17 years doing jack shit.
    So it'd be cool if in a future expansion the undead/forsaken have a campaign mission to retake EPL and Strat and turn it into a new city hub.

  5. #265
    Pit Lord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    Big disagreement here, the Forsaken are their own people (or race?) of undeath, and not all Forsaken are former Lordaeron humans either, there are Forsaken high elves, blood elves, night elves and gnomes.

    Also, I disagree with that the Forsaken are the Argent Crusade's own people, Forsaken come from many nations (Stormwind, Dalaran, Gilneas, Gnomeregan, Quel'thalas, Darnassus, Kul Tiras etc) so they would be as much those nation's "people" as they would be the Argent Crusade's people. I mean own people in a way that they're their fellow Lordaeronian countrymen. And since the Stromics control Arathi, the Gilneans hold their lands now and they could drive away the Dalarani Forsaken, and etc., they'd should be welcome in Lordaeron



    Except for the fact that the Ghostlands and most of the Eastern Plaguelands are still undeath, troll and who knows what more dangererous creature infested. Yes they are neighbours, but so are the night elves and orcs, and they don't (can't) align with eachother either. The Argent Crusade isn't in bad terms with the Forsaken, even better now that Sylvanas and Nathanos are gone. The trolls should be now being dealt with the Zandalari diplomatically so there can come a time where the Amani can compromise with the Blood Elves. Also I'd wager that the Argent Crusade should be finished with the Eastern Plaguelands other than Stratholme. It can be made so that they're going now on Ghostlands.

    Also, if the Argent Crusade would align themselves with the Horde, they're so spread out that the waning Horde forces in the Eastern Kingdoms would be unable to protect the vast majority of Forsaken and Argent lands if/when the Alliance does invade in the Fifth War(tm). I believe that since Liadrin canonically wielded the Ashbringer in Legion and she no longer wears it in BFA, she might have returned it to them and it would be canonically under Maxwell's possesion.



    Lordaeron and Quel'thalas have never been "friends", aloof allies at best. Don't mind if I move the goalpost here but I'd say it's friends on a sense where it's retconned that Anasterian sent those priests to Lordaeron (instead of old WC3 lore saying that the Priests and Sorceresses defied his orders to stay in human lands) as "goodwill" to Terenas. Also, the Argent Crusade defending the Blood Elves from the Alliance and help cleansing the Ghostlands could be their amends and their "formal apology" to them since they are like the direct successor of Garithos' New Alliance Remnants.



    Stratholme should be the capital of the Argent Crusade, Sunwalker druids should have nothing in common with the Paladins of the Crusade and the Blood Knights of Quel'thalas. Also the Blood Knights have their own bases (or should have) and not have to share with the human-centric/majority Argent Crusade.



    Is that still a thing in-Lore? that secret pier under a shield near Stratholme in Vanilla/Classic


    Also, on the subject of the Forsaken lands.

    Personally I am a fan of the Forsaken claiming Alterac City, rebuilding it as a proper Forsaken City (instead of a derelict human one), building into the mountain underneath it too.

    Alterac is centrally located, making the Forsaken able to strike at the Alliance-occupied (reclaimed?) Southshore, Fenris and Shadowfang Keeps.

    Alterac is defensible, it is surrounded by (cold) mountains and has roads leading directly to Forsaken-controlled Andorhal (I guess the largest city with the loss of Lordaeron city?), the Sludge Fields, Tarren Mill and Southpoint Gate, the Forsaken might even be able to capture and rebuild Durnholde as a fortress to keep watch over Thoradin's Wall and the road to Aerie Peak ensuring the Alliance can't easily invade over land as they would control all acces points into Hillsbrad Foothills and Western Plaguelands.

    Alterac is cold, this would help them maintain their decaying bodies.

    Alterac is abandoned, the Forsaken could easily rebuild it as a proper Forsaken city (using the structures seen in WotLK) OR they could build it in a way that each Forsaken nationality would have their own "district", ei Kul Tiran buildings for Kul Tiran Forsaken, Gnomish buildings for gnomish Forsaken, Thalassian buildings for Thalassian Forsaken etc.

    They could expand downwards, increasing the size of their city and/or making a second Undercity.

    They are close to the Frostwolf Clan, we know that the Desolate Council was a pretty oke group, which shows that without Sylvanas' influence the Forsaken actually are closer to living humans than we thought, so if Voss and Calia can restore that part of the Forsaken the Frostwolves wouldn't abandon their closest allies as easily anymore.
    In bold.

    Also, Alteraci Human Allied Race for the Horde.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    One thing to notice, which would also be super convenient is the place were we had our death knight intro experience in wrath. That whole place Tyrs hand or something is a full on city behind the mountains that used to be scarlet crusade ground. They even have alot of options for harbors and such. That is also close to quel thalas.
    The Argent Crusade canonically holds Tyr's Hand since Cataclysm. Havenshire and New Avalon would be nice settlements for Forsaken refugees and more Mag'har and Vulpera looking for homes
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    (Alteraci Human thread in construction)

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post

    I mean 16 years it has been.. of wow and they were always forsaken lands. I feel like that claim has lost its meaning some time ago. Forsaken are dead humans right? Arent most of them just people who already lived there?

    But I would say to horde players.. let it rest and move on. Undercity is not even a great refuge nowadays.
    They lost that right when they died. The survivors from the third war have a claim to it now! )

  7. #267
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Ain't the entire point of Sylvanas destroying Lordearon, that the Forsaken are supposed to be a dying, exiled race? Sylvanases deal with the Val'kyrs is over, so what is left for the Forsaken to look forward to and why would they need a homeland again? O.o

    I think it would be interesting, if they ended up as the Gilnean and that the Gilnean took back Gilneas now that the Forsaken are gone. Its like a switch-a-roo.

    Atleast untill we have a new death calamity which creates a lot of new corpses, the Forsaken are really at their limit.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    In bold.

    Also, Alteraci Human Allied Race for the Horde.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The Argent Crusade canonically holds Tyr's Hand since Cataclysm. Havenshire and New Avalon would be nice settlements for Forsaken refugees and more Mag'har and Vulpera looking for homes
    Didnt know that since its empty, no npcs I believe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soimu View Post
    They lost that right when they died. The survivors from the third war have a claim to it now! )
    They died, but are not dead, but forsaken. The ground and undercity is broken and plagued so.. I dont see any one claiming it any time soon tho.

    Lorderearon doesnt realy seem like a very smart or tactical place at this point, I wouldnt care if alliance tried tho.

  9. #269
    Forsaken will never get their land back because they are the badguys, who are supposed to hate themselves, and possibly cancel their accounts.

    (per Blizz's story in BFA)

    I know I did!
    Last edited by Martymark; 2021-03-19 at 06:45 PM.

  10. #270
    High Overlord Shadowtwili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    I still prefer Stratholme, but i like this take too.
    Stratholme does have that little bit of extra background that makes it suitable; it's where Arthas' descent began after all, and a very neat city in its own right.
    While I get where people are coming from, I personally feel that Stratholme is really unsuited for the Forsaken for two main reasons.

    1) It's where Arthas descend began, why would they want to live in the city that was the start of their cursed existence.
    2) It's the location of the Bastion of the Silver Hand, a holy site to the Argent Crusade, Scarlet Crusade, Brotherhood of the Light, Knights of the Silver Hand (both neutral and Alliance versions) and even to a lesser extent the Blood Knights.
    3) The Argent Crusade has already made clear in (cataclysm-era) quests that they are planning to rebuild Stratholme into their capital city for their new Light-blessed nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    And the issue with Alterac is that it is within striking range from at least two Alliance Strongholds, namely Stromgarde in the reclaimed Arathi highlands and Aerie Peak in particular, as its altitudes would favor the aerial superiority the dwarves could provide. Third would be the presumably reclaimed kingdom of Gilneas, which too is not too far away.
    Well, if the Forsaken capture and rebuild Durnholde Keep, they could cut off ground forces from both Kingdom of Stromgarde and Aerie Peak, Thoradin's wall has stairs on the Forsaken side too, so they could (more easily) defend it than Stromgarde could invade.

    Forsaken batriders are more then a match for the Wildhammer Gryphon Riders, imho

    The Kingdom of Gilneas (as per Exploring Azeroth: Eastern Kingdoms) is still not reclaimed and lays abandoned. But even if it isn't reclaimed the Forsaken still need to fortify both Southpoint Gate and the Sludge Fields into better defensible positions because the Alliance has captured (again as per Exploring Azeroth: Eastern Kingdoms) Fenris and Shadowfang Keeps.

    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    And last but not least: Alterac is currently in the hands of the Syndicate and ogres i believe, to capture it would be no easy feat (then again that might just make it all the more epic if they make a proper event out of it).
    This, really. Also don't make it suck like Operation: Gnomeregan (I still cry myself to sleep over it, oke?)

    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Also it must be noted that the Forsaken are not the best engineers, the Undercity was convenient due to the sewers and dungeons, Alterac does not have such a ready built "undercity" currently, if it ever had one.
    Maybe they could recruit the dwarven ghosts of Dun Garok (raise their bodies too, so we could have proper Forsaken dwarves too, instead of only humans, elves and gnomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    No need to bash, cus I see alot of good ideas here, but personally I am more of a fan of the location of Stratholme.
    Thank you, I really like the Stratholme for the Forsaken idea too (and I would ofcourse easily accept it if Blizzard does decide to give Stratholme to the Forsaken), there's just a few points I explained above on why I think it wouldn't work either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    It has a very usefull spot like mentioned before next to their blood elf allies. I am talking about forsaken working together with the argent crusade and the blood elves and take stratholme as their base.

    Close to quel'thalas, strong walls and already a city, makes like the perfect place. I do realy like the idea of crusaders getting into stratholme as well just because it is such a rich place of lore for them.
    They're both really good ideas, imho. But I dislike the Argent Crusade working with the Forsaken and Blood elves in such a way, it would push them into the Horde basicly and I like such a large neutral (paladin) organisation. They're basicly a Crusader state these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Not a fan of a second undercity tho, I like them to move on and use their Blood elf allies, who helped them back in the day when they were first introduced in the ghostlands.
    Neither am I, but according to the BFA wartable the Forsaken where retreating to Alterac City and building a second Undercity there if I remember correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    One thing to notice, which would also be super convenient is the place were we had our death knight intro experience in wrath. That whole place Tyrs hand or something is a full on city behind the mountains that used to be scarlet crusade ground. They even have alot of options for harbors and such. That is also close to quel thalas.
    That one could work too? I'm just, it might sound silly but in my eyes the Argent Crusade is the defacto ruler (nation) in possession of the entire Eastern Plaguelands. No Horde or Alliance have a presence there. So yeah, its abit eh to me. Maybe I'm just too much a sucker for Alterac for the Forsaken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Anyway the main point is that imo EPL offer alot of realy strong options for the forsaken that surpasses Alterac.
    It does, the problem is just that it's also the zone with the largest Argent Crusade presence, the Paladin Order hall and a levelling zone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I like your thinking about the cold that would help the forsaken, but that was never a problem so I dont count that.
    If I remember correctly, in the most recent book, it was stated by Lillian Voss that many of the Forsaken refugees living in Orgrimmar are suffering from the heat as it is not good for their bodies (since Forsaken can not feel actual heat).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Also, Alteraci Human Allied Race for the Horde.
    I would like that, but Blizzard will never do that. Unless the Alliance gets (Lightbound) orcs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    The Argent Crusade canonically holds Tyr's Hand since Cataclysm. Havenshire and New Avalon would be nice settlements for Forsaken refugees and more Mag'har and Vulpera looking for homes
    Which is why I think the Argent Crusade would expand into Havenshore and New Avalon and not the Forsaken. THe Cruade holds the only entrance to those two areas.

    Also, the mag'har live quite comfortable with the other orcs in Orgrimmar and the vulpera have homes in (now mostly safe) Vol'dun, or if they need to move Zuldazar, which is really close by.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I mean own people in a way that they're their fellow Lordaeronian countrymen. And since the Stromics control Arathi, the Gilneans hold their lands now and they could drive away the Dalarani Forsaken, and etc., they'd should be welcome in Lordaeron
    Ah, but the Argent Crusaders aren't all from Lordaeron either. They're humans (paladin or otherwise) from many nations and races. Hence why there are blood elves, high elves, night elves, gnomes, dwarves, draenei, orcs and many more races that are members of the Argent Crusade. It's just a fact of (Warcraft) live that organisations and nations such as the Argent Crusade, Cenarion Circle and Forsaken are multicultural by nature of how their groups are build up from the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    The Argent Crusade isn't in bad terms with the Forsaken, even better now that Sylvanas and Nathanos are gone. The trolls should be now being dealt with the Zandalari diplomatically so there can come a time where the Amani can compromise with the Blood Elves. Also I'd wager that the Argent Crusade should be finished with the Eastern Plaguelands other than Stratholme. It can be made so that they're going now on Ghostlands.
    The Argent Crusade isn't on bad terms with the night elves and Alliance either. They would be insane to risk those relations just to give the Forsaken a new city. Also remember that the current leader of the Alliance is a (quite zealous) paladin from Lordaeron that lived in Stratholme at one point.

    The Zandalari aren't the overlords of the trolls either, so there's not a big chance the forest trolls would accept peace (no matter how good for the forest trolls), even in Zandalar the forest trolls insult the Horde and are hostile mobs.

    Hah, the Argent Crusade will be done with the EPL when Blizzard says they're done, sadly. So that'll take another decade or two, at the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I believe that since Liadrin canonically wielded the Ashbringer in Legion and she no longer wears it in BFA, she might have returned it to them and it would be canonically under Maxwell's possesion.
    Which is even more reason for the Alliance to attack the Crusade in a potentional Fifth War scenario if the Crusaders are getting so buddy buddy with the Horde. Also no idea what this had to do with my point! (Also still think they did our boy Tirion Fordring a dirty, would've been great if he'd have met Turalyon, one of his original brothers).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Don't mind if I move the goalpost here but I'd say it's friends on a sense where it's retconned that Anasterian sent those priests to Lordaeron (instead of old WC3 lore saying that the Priests and Sorceresses defied his orders to stay in human lands) as "goodwill" to Terenas. Also, the Argent Crusade defending the Blood Elves from the Alliance and help cleansing the Ghostlands could be their amends and their "formal apology" to them since they are like the direct successor of Garithos' New Alliance Remnants.
    Wait, Anasterian send the priests these days? Damn, I don't really like that new part of lore.

    And I do not think the Argent Crusade (or the Grand Alliance) should formally apologise or "make amends" for what Garithos did. That'd be like saying Quel'thalas should apologise or "make amends" for everything Sylvanas did even after she was risen.

    Garithos was at most a rogue military leader of (the Alliance of) Lordaeron's defunct nobility/military and at worst the most succesful warlord in the area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    that secret pier under a shield near Stratholme in Vanilla/Classic
    They're never going to use that, are they? >.>'

    (sorry for long post D

  11. #271
    Pit Lord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    I would like that, but Blizzard will never do that. Unless the Alliance gets (Lightbound) orcs...
    I was also once for Lightbound orcs but the Alliance already got the Horde's most popular race but the Nightborne can't be Highborne; so the Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return
    Last edited by Ardenaso; 2021-03-19 at 09:39 PM.
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    (Alteraci Human thread in construction)

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    "their lands"

    Which are "their lands" exactly? the forsaken are dead humans, dead people don't have any lands. They were brought back from the dead to serve arthas/lich king, they invaded Strat/Tirisfal/Lordereon/Silverpine. Technically they don't own or are entitled to any lands. NOW with the return of Calia and whatever the fuck is going on with her, she does have rights to those lands. I'm not sure exactly if she's dead...or...some weird ass shit Blizzard is doing. But, unlike sylvannas she does actually have a claim to all that shit. It'd kind of be cool if we see a reformed WPL/EPL, it's a little weird those 2 zones have remained untouched for so long. The lights hope chapel has been there for like 17 years doing jack shit.
    So it'd be cool if in a future expansion the undead/forsaken have a campaign mission to retake EPL and Strat and turn it into a new city hub.
    the plaguelands that they conquered. you know, like every sentient race own every single land both in azeroth and in real life. someone conquered a zone and then can force a law (in this case property) in that zone...
    even because if we go with this wrong reasoning the plaguelands still would belong to kel'thuzad (or nobody, considering that calia cant be the heir being a woman)....
    Last edited by omeomorfismo; 2021-03-19 at 10:52 PM.
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    When do Gilneans get their land back?
    Yea, out of all zones and looking at that capitol its a god damn shame and it would be great to see that beautiful city flourish. The whole theme there and the lighthouses I mean.. its great it realy is.

    Worgen deserve it more at this point to be fair.

    Offtopic, but I remember blizz talking about a bg that would be IN the city of gilneas instead of what we got. That would have been such a fun experience. Imagine fighting through the streets, corridors or at the stairs of the church.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2021-03-20 at 08:27 AM.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    While I get where people are coming from, I personally feel that Stratholme is really unsuited for the Forsaken for two main reasons.

    1) It's where Arthas descend began, why would they want to live in the city that was the start of their cursed existence.
    2) It's the location of the Bastion of the Silver Hand, a holy site to the Argent Crusade, Scarlet Crusade, Brotherhood of the Light, Knights of the Silver Hand (both neutral and Alliance versions) and even to a lesser extent the Blood Knights.
    3) The Argent Crusade has already made clear in (cataclysm-era) quests that they are planning to rebuild Stratholme into their capital city for their new Light-blessed nation.



    Well, if the Forsaken capture and rebuild Durnholde Keep, they could cut off ground forces from both Kingdom of Stromgarde and Aerie Peak, Thoradin's wall has stairs on the Forsaken side too, so they could (more easily) defend it than Stromgarde could invade.

    Forsaken batriders are more then a match for the Wildhammer Gryphon Riders, imho

    The Kingdom of Gilneas (as per Exploring Azeroth: Eastern Kingdoms) is still not reclaimed and lays abandoned. But even if it isn't reclaimed the Forsaken still need to fortify both Southpoint Gate and the Sludge Fields into better defensible positions because the Alliance has captured (again as per Exploring Azeroth: Eastern Kingdoms) Fenris and Shadowfang Keeps.



    This, really. Also don't make it suck like Operation: Gnomeregan (I still cry myself to sleep over it, oke?)



    Maybe they could recruit the dwarven ghosts of Dun Garok (raise their bodies too, so we could have proper Forsaken dwarves too, instead of only humans, elves and gnomes.



    Thank you, I really like the Stratholme for the Forsaken idea too (and I would ofcourse easily accept it if Blizzard does decide to give Stratholme to the Forsaken), there's just a few points I explained above on why I think it wouldn't work either.



    They're both really good ideas, imho. But I dislike the Argent Crusade working with the Forsaken and Blood elves in such a way, it would push them into the Horde basicly and I like such a large neutral (paladin) organisation. They're basicly a Crusader state these days.



    Neither am I, but according to the BFA wartable the Forsaken where retreating to Alterac City and building a second Undercity there if I remember correctly.



    That one could work too? I'm just, it might sound silly but in my eyes the Argent Crusade is the defacto ruler (nation) in possession of the entire Eastern Plaguelands. No Horde or Alliance have a presence there. So yeah, its abit eh to me. Maybe I'm just too much a sucker for Alterac for the Forsaken?



    It does, the problem is just that it's also the zone with the largest Argent Crusade presence, the Paladin Order hall and a levelling zone.



    If I remember correctly, in the most recent book, it was stated by Lillian Voss that many of the Forsaken refugees living in Orgrimmar are suffering from the heat as it is not good for their bodies (since Forsaken can not feel actual heat).



    I would like that, but Blizzard will never do that. Unless the Alliance gets (Lightbound) orcs...



    Which is why I think the Argent Crusade would expand into Havenshore and New Avalon and not the Forsaken. THe Cruade holds the only entrance to those two areas.

    Also, the mag'har live quite comfortable with the other orcs in Orgrimmar and the vulpera have homes in (now mostly safe) Vol'dun, or if they need to move Zuldazar, which is really close by.



    Ah, but the Argent Crusaders aren't all from Lordaeron either. They're humans (paladin or otherwise) from many nations and races. Hence why there are blood elves, high elves, night elves, gnomes, dwarves, draenei, orcs and many more races that are members of the Argent Crusade. It's just a fact of (Warcraft) live that organisations and nations such as the Argent Crusade, Cenarion Circle and Forsaken are multicultural by nature of how their groups are build up from the ground.



    The Argent Crusade isn't on bad terms with the night elves and Alliance either. They would be insane to risk those relations just to give the Forsaken a new city. Also remember that the current leader of the Alliance is a (quite zealous) paladin from Lordaeron that lived in Stratholme at one point.

    The Zandalari aren't the overlords of the trolls either, so there's not a big chance the forest trolls would accept peace (no matter how good for the forest trolls), even in Zandalar the forest trolls insult the Horde and are hostile mobs.

    Hah, the Argent Crusade will be done with the EPL when Blizzard says they're done, sadly. So that'll take another decade or two, at the least.



    Which is even more reason for the Alliance to attack the Crusade in a potentional Fifth War scenario if the Crusaders are getting so buddy buddy with the Horde. Also no idea what this had to do with my point! (Also still think they did our boy Tirion Fordring a dirty, would've been great if he'd have met Turalyon, one of his original brothers).



    Wait, Anasterian send the priests these days? Damn, I don't really like that new part of lore.

    And I do not think the Argent Crusade (or the Grand Alliance) should formally apologise or "make amends" for what Garithos did. That'd be like saying Quel'thalas should apologise or "make amends" for everything Sylvanas did even after she was risen.

    Garithos was at most a rogue military leader of (the Alliance of) Lordaeron's defunct nobility/military and at worst the most succesful warlord in the area.



    They're never going to use that, are they? >.>'

    (sorry for long post D
    Fair points all, and those bits about the book i did not know, very nice (to me the lore mostly consists only of what happens in game, i dislike stories being spread across multiple media, but to learn of them like this is nice enough).

    1. The Forsaken might run into conflict with them anyhow, as their tendency up until now has been to pervert and corrupt to a lesser degree than the scourge, but still to do so, so long term peace with those mentioned groups might be hard to come by.
    And doesn't all of Lordaeron resemble their curse? Stratholme was pivotal, but it's not where it started.

    2. Fair points, though arguably also points against Alterac as Stratholme would avoid the need to fortify all that. And the forsaken currently do not have much to spare in terms of resources and numbers, and are one of the least easily reinvigorated races due to their undeath.

    3. Yeah, Gnomeregan was a kick in the shins, and that's especially low if you consider they're gnomes!

    4. I seem to recall my forsaken characters having to murder the dwarves in the first place, so i'm not sure they would help.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  15. #275
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    I kind of like the idea of the Forsaken populating Alterac, but there's a legitimacy issue. For all these years we've argued Lordaeron rightfully belongs to the Forsaken as they are its original citizens. Afaik the Syndicate largely consists of Alteraci citizens, so the Forsaken taking their lands would be akin to an invading force taking Lordaeron. The kingdom itself has fallen, but as with Lordaeron I don't think it de-legitimizes the inhabitants' right to their dwellings.

    The only way I'd see this going down in a righteous manner is if a portion of Alteraci people split off from the Syndicate and made a pact with the Forsaken, turning Alterac into a protectorate. This would mean the Horde was allied to a human faction1 as well as see the Forsaken co-exist with them rather than have a city themed only for the undead. It would be a clear vision of new post-Sylvanas times for the Forsaken, supported by the harmony witnessed between the living and the dead in Before The Storm. It would also make their name, 'Forsaken', redundant, as they are no longer literally forsaken by the living.

    I kind of like it, then I kind of don't, as it de-emphasizes what I originally appreciated about the faction. The Forsaken are sentient undead, gone through horrible events and carved a life for themselves in a hostile world. This left them largely traumatized, darker than they used to be. This suggested development takes them away from that and towards your ordinary humans. It's an interesting path to see, but also painful because they lose a lot of their original flavor.

    And, honestly, Lordaeron is a big place and theirs by right; leaving it and building your new foundation to a foreign nation is a weird choice in the end.

    1Humans officially allied to the Horde, especially now that we always expect such pacts to turn into playable races, is questionable, as humans are the poster race of the Alliance just as orcs are of the Horde. No matter how far Warcraft's universe has developed to, Orcs Vs Humans is still the core imo.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  16. #276
    High Overlord Shadowtwili's Avatar
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    This is a situation where we can debate endlessly because both Alterac and Stratholme make (good) sense as a potentional new capital city for the Forsaken, really. Alas, like I said, I'd prefer Alterac but I won't whine and cry if the Forsaken get Stratholme either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Yea, out of all zones and looking at that capitol its a god damn shame and it would be great to see that beautiful city flourish. The whole theme there and the lighthouses I mean.. its great it realy is.
    You know what anoys me the most about capital cities at this point? The fact that Blizzard is centering it all in Stormwind/Orgrimmar. Why can't Ironforge, Dazar'alor, Echo Isles, Thunder Bluff and Bilgewater Harbor have a portal room and all the conveniences of Stormwind and Orgrimmar while serving as their racial capitals? Also, why do they keep insisting on Gnomeregan bieng its independant faction? Gnomes and dwarves are both better off bieng one nation (the Kingdom of Khaz Modan), imho. I mean they share cities, territory, resources and military already anyway.

    Why do they refuse to update Quel'thalas, Azuremyst Isles and Gilneas and make them proper capital cities with all the convenience of Orgrimmar and Stormwind? Especially since, technically, the Alliance now has more homeless races then the Horde.

    Why can't they phase Highmountain, Suramar, Shadowforge City, Mechagon etc into the present day permanently? They can keep the raids and dungeons accesible through their entrances or add a Bronze Dragon to phase it back to the time the city was still hostile/friendly to Horde (or Alliance) players. (Or, if they're really lazy, just make the AR-only cities accesible to all members of their faction).

    Really, with BfA Blizzard has shown it is possible, they just refuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Worgen deserve it more at this point to be fair.
    Lots of races, deserve lots of areas. Sadly never getting them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Offtopic, but I remember blizz talking about a bg that would be IN the city of gilneas instead of what we got. That would have been such a fun experience. Imagine fighting through the streets, corridors or at the stairs of the church.
    Atleast we wouldn't have this.... Shrodinger's Gilneas situation every damn expansion.

    Blizzard: "It's uninhabitable"
    Players: "There's people there"
    Blizzard: "We know, but it's uninhabitable"
    Players: "But again there's people there"
    Blizzard: "Ya, but still uninhabitable."


    (Also, about the Forsaken/Horde fleeing to Alterac. It's talked about in the mission Alterac Scouting (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Alterac_Scouting) and in the mission Rebuilding Alterac (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Rebuilding_Alterac). Also on a side-note, the Alliance is rebuilding Southshore (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Southshore_Sabotage_(Horde) and https://wow.gamepedia.com/Raleigh_the_Devout)).
    Last edited by Shadowtwili; 2021-03-20 at 01:29 PM.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Yea, out of all zones and looking at that capitol its a god damn shame and it would be great to see that beautiful city flourish. The whole theme there and the lighthouses I mean.. its great it realy is.

    Worgen deserve it more at this point to be fair.
    Considering that they got killed off AGAIN when the forsaken burned Teldrassil...they can't get a break.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Considering that they got killed off AGAIN when the forsaken burned Teldrassil...they can't get a break.
    Plus, the Horde tries to blame the entire Blood War on them. Contrary to all the facts...

  19. #279
    Pit Lord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    -snip-
    a bit late and I hope it isn't grounds for spam/bump

    I mean the Argent Crusade Lordaeronians whereas they'd finally pledge themselves as an independent state again or probably even let themselves get involved with Calia's forces.

    Best I can think to pull this off is Blizzard making Turalyon scold and sanction them for doing nothing in the Fourth War and then pulling off the Alliance from them and then the Tyrosus/Dawnbringer in response would pledge the Lordaeronians to the Horde. Well even if they're not in bad terms with the Alliance before they're still much closer to the Forsaken and Blood Elves which I think is a better choice geopolitically.

    If Turalyon sends Alleria and the Void Elves to attack Eastweald and Quel'thalas, the Ashbringer should make short work of them before Alleria can say "Quel'thalas for Alliance"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    The only way I'd see this going down in a righteous manner is if a portion of Alteraci people split off from the Syndicate and made a pact with the Forsaken, turning Alterac into a protectorate. This would mean the Horde was allied to a human faction1 as well as see the Forsaken co-exist with them rather than have a city themed only for the undead. It would be a clear vision of new post-Sylvanas times for the Forsaken, supported by the harmony witnessed between the living and the dead in Before The Storm. It would also make their name, 'Forsaken', redundant, as they are no longer literally forsaken by the living.
    my idea for Alteraci Human Allied Race is that Alterac would be reclaimed by the Blackthorn Bandits, former Syndicate members, and the Ravenholdt from the Syndicate and then Alterac would be a city for Alteraci Humans, Alteraci Forsaken, Frostwolf Orcs, and Revantusk refugees; and then they recruit the Fogsail Pirates, Defias Brotherhood, and that pirate group with a Blood Elf fanboy
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    (Alteraci Human thread in construction)

  20. #280
    Dreadlord Wolfrick's Avatar
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    Stratholm as the Capitol of the Forsaken is perfect!!!

    Since they don't have the Valkyr anymore we really need to introduce a Necromacer class, the forsaken should really focus on Recuriting as many Necromacers as they can so that they would not end up being a race on the path of extincion... since Undead can't have kids.

    Stratholm was the most Populated and and Urban city on Azeroth... befour the plague hit it, so just think about how many Recruits the Forsaken would have in a city that was that big and that dence with people... and also... think about the sewers... how full of corpses and death creatures must be down there. (Immagin the Zombie appocalyps in New York.... and an undead race... makes that city their capitol... omg... I have having such a Mindexplosion moment now) ^^

    And think about it... it Tyralion... beeing the Leader of the military of the alliance now... with the Forsaken and the horde making Stratholm a new horde capitol of undead... it would be like a "declaration of war against the light"... so it would be a huge thing that could open up a new era of Cold war on azeroth... that would be perfect with an Azeroth revamp!... hey hey... Just saying ^^

    PS:

    Well, this topic and all those great ideas... is a huge prof that an Azeroth Revamp is super needed... and would be super cool

    Just think about...... just think about it!.... all that Lore from Legion... then the War in BFA and so much new and interesting Lore on the realm of death (Now that the Helm of Domination is broken... every undead in free..)

    for years now my head has been full of ideas and concepts how awesome Eastern Kingdomes and Kalimdor would be now in a revamp.... after Legion... BFA and shadowlands.

    PPS: YES!.... I am a Lore Geek/nerd ^^
    Last edited by Wolfrick; 2021-04-12 at 07:09 AM.
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