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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Why would Forsaken care about Lordaeron in particular? They destroyed the entire place.
    It's their home, for most. Forsaken are, by and large, majority Lordaeron citizens who were raised into undeath.

    They would care no less for it now than they did while alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  2. #162
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    Considering they got their mind back, that doesnt really matter if they are living or undead. They been from lordaeron, they still live in lordaeron, they are lordaeron people.
    Considering that the lands were claimed by others while they were Scourge, that doesn't really seem to matter; it's like abandoning the house you pay rent on and then coming back months later and expecting another tenant to not be living there and be able to resume paying your rent to the same landlord even though they don't own the property anymore.

  3. #163
    Brewmaster Whitedragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Night elves conquered Darkshore back and left Stormwind for Hyjal. Now I demand from Blizzard that Forsaken get the same treatment and return to their hometurf in Lordaeron since that would be the FAIR thing to do. Obviously I can't expect fairness from alliance fanatics it seems.
    Sure just as soon as the Alliance burns most of the citizens that escaped safely from undercity before their own queen blew it up. It's only fair right?

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Considering that the lands were claimed by others while they were Scourge, that doesn't really seem to matter; it's like abandoning the house you pay rent on and then coming back months later and expecting another tenant to not be living there and be able to resume paying your rent to the same landlord even though they don't own the property anymore.
    This matters even less.

    Because to make your analogy more accurate, it would be more like a person falling comatose, their family determining they'd leave him a vegetable, only for them to make a miraculous recovery and find their house, all their worldly possessions, their job, their family all gone - All moved on without them, basically left them for dead and lived their own lives. Their possessions and home sold to the highest bidder, their family no longer "their" family and instead another person's family entirely.

    You'd be damned sure that person would wake up and think "What the fuck, I want my life back." The Forsaken didn't "abandon the house they paid rent on," they were forcefully evicted by the landlord's son (who had no claim to their apartment at that time, but when "forced eviction" accounts to "blatant murder and necromancy" it's hard to make a direct comparison), so of course when they returned saying "Hey, this is our home" they expected to have their home again. When they then found that no one was living there (throwing your "another tenant" point out the window...) reclaiming land they rightfully owned and never rightfully lost, makes sense.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-03-13 at 03:41 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Considering that the lands were claimed by others while they were Scourge, that doesn't really seem to matter; it's like abandoning the house you pay rent on and then coming back months later and expecting another tenant to not be living there and be able to resume paying your rent to the same landlord even though they don't own the property anymore.
    It's more like getting kidnapped and thrown into slavery only to return to your home only to have some guy who didn't even live there try to tell you that you don't have the rights to your own property because you're a slave now and not a person.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  6. #166
    Pit Lord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Blood Elves are High Elves, Forsaken Humans are Humans
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    (Alteraci Human thread in construction)

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    This matters even less.

    Because to make your analogy more accurate, it would be more like a person falling comatose, their family determining they'd leave him a vegetable, only for them to make a miraculous recovery and find their house, all their worldly possessions, their job, their family all gone - All moved on without them, basically left them for dead and lived their own lives. Their possessions and home sold to the highest bidder, their family no longer "their" family and instead another person's family entirely.

    You'd be damned sure that person would wake up and think "What the fuck, I want my life back." The Forsaken didn't "abandon the house they paid rent on," they were forcefully evicted by the landlord's son (who had no claim to their apartment at that time, but when "forced eviction" accounts to "blatant murder and necromancy" it's hard to make a direct comparison), so of course when they returned saying "Hey, this is our home" they expected to have their home again. When they then found that no one was living there (throwing your "another tenant" point out the window...) reclaiming land they rightfully owned and never rightfully lost, makes sense.
    less falling comatose and more "lost our mind and became mass murderers intent on mindless genocide" which kinda puts a hamper on just...being ok with them going back to normal.
    Professor Johnston often said that if you didn't know history, you didn't know anything. You were a leaf that didn't know it was part of a tree. ~Michael Crichton, Timeline

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Glormon View Post
    less falling comatose and more "lost our mind and became mass murderers intent on mindless genocide" which kinda puts a hamper on just...being ok with them going back to normal.
    In a world where magic which dominates the psyche is commonplace, it really doesn't. The only thing that dampens it is the idea that no such thing as a free willed undead existed in WoW prior to the Forsaken.

    But that is precisely what Forsaken were told to us as. Free willed undead. They didn't lose their mind and become mass murderers, as they had no intent, and many didn't lose their minds at all - The intent lay with their master, the Lich King, who dominated their entire being. Their minds, in many cases, were forced to be aware of what they were doing as a torture technique, but not within control of themselves.

    Nobody is saying anyone has to forgive those people. But that doesn't change that what happened to them is not their fault, nor within their control, and they can't be held responsible for actions which they themselves did not have control over.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post

    Nobody is saying anyone has to forgive those people. But that doesn't change that what happened to them is not their fault, nor within their control, and they can't be held responsible for actions which they themselves did not have control over.
    Nobody is blaming them for the things they did as Scourge. The thing is that they did not change their methods AFTER regaining their free will. They experiment on humans, raise them into their own tortured existence, cut up the bodies to make Abominations, mass murder the living with Blight... their actions are just as disgusting as they were when they were Scourge.
    Their action are in fact so vile that Sylvanas knew she had to hide them from the Horde or be kicked out.

    So the point is not that they are blamed for their past and thus denied land. The point is that they have DECIDED to be evil monsters and no one is safe when they are left running around. Even worse, most of the few decent ones among them were killed by Sylvanas at Arathi.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Nobody is blaming them for the things they did as Scourge. The thing is that they did not change their methods AFTER regaining their free will.
    Which does not at all change the claim of who's land it rightfully is. Horrible people have deeds to land too. Lordaeron doesn't belong to humans just because undead are horrid, disgusting, vile creatures.

    One might even argue the situation they were placed in AFTER becoming undead, what with having lost their entire lives prior, may have even accelerated that descent into madness, or made choosing such atrocities all the easier. Stormwind humans have no problem killing undead who may or may not have potentially had something to do with the deaths of some living creatures - Why should Forsaken have a problem with killing humans, who purposefully cast them out, hunted them, still don't view them as their former selves to this day, and willfully shout about how they don't deserve the unlife they were cursed with?

    Also, please pay attention to the conversation you're replying to. We are literally talking about the moment they woke up in undeath, and how it is similar to being comatose in the post you replied to. Which is only similar insofar as the undead basically died, and from that point on, had no control over themselves, until they miraculously "got better." Imagine telling a newly awakened comatose patient that:
    A) Their wife left them and has no interest in meeting again, because they are now gross and possibly a murderer through no fault of their own
    B) Their house was resold, and they're not about to give it back
    C) They are now on the most wanted list and people are literally aching to re-kill them for something they had no control over
    D) Worse yet, if during all of this, the person was aware of what they did, but simply had no power to stop it

    Suddenly, it's not so surprising that a ton of undead said "You know what, fuck humanity, let's make everyone undead."

    Nobody is saying the undead aren't shitty people - The above decision is still shitty, no matter how many layers of justification it has. The thread is about who has the rightful claim to Lordaeron, humans or undead - And the fact is, both have a "rightful" claim, because most deeds don't consider "came back as an undead" to be a valid claim to land, and yet to deny a living creature it's living space is a horrible thing to do, especially when it is no fault of it's own that it lost said living space. Even MORESO when it's just to give some high and mighty noble what they want - Lordaeron doesn't belong to nobility just because they said so.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-03-13 at 01:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Which does not at all change the claim of who's land it rightfully is. Horrible people have deeds to land too.
    True but in this world we kick those people out of their land and kill them for their crimes. Like Blackmoore. By your logic we were wrong to attack Argus, because it was "rightfully" the property of the Legion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Lordaeron doesn't belong to humans just because undead are horrid, disgusting, vile creatures.
    No, it belongs to the humans because it was human kingdom under Terenas Menethil. Just because the Forsaken took advantage of the Scourge and murdered the last remaining humans under Garithos and then some of the farmers and other innocents, does not mean their claim to the land is legitimate and their actions after taking it only proved that no one should tolerate them there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    One might even argue the situation they were placed in AFTER becoming undead, what with having lost their entire lives prior, may have even accelerated that descent into madness, or made choosing such atrocities all the easier.
    Sure, the trauma had something to do with it. But it's no excuse for all the atrocities they commited. Undead like the Ebon Blade have not become mass murderers after they got their free will back. People like Alonsus Faol even chose to remain a Priest of the Light...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Stormwind humans have no problem killing undead who may or may not have potentially had something to do with the deaths of some living creatures - Why should Forsaken have a problem with killing humans, who purposefully cast them out, hunted them, still don't view them as their former selves to this day, and willfully shout about how they don't deserve the unlife they were cursed with?
    You have it backwards. The Forsaken murdered humans before Stormwind even knew they exist as a group. And since Sylvanas purposefully did not go herself to explain the situation and instead chose to send people that to ANYONE that lived through the Scourge has to look like just a leftover ghoul... The result was clear.
    Last edited by Raisei; 2021-03-13 at 02:02 PM.

  12. #172
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    You don't get to bulldoze over an entire playable race and get to call it fair. The Forsaken deserve to keep Lordaeron the same way night elves get Darkshore and Ashenvale. This is not up to discussion.
    Actually, it is up for discussion. One, because you posted here in a public forum; and two, because not everyone agrees with you.

    Are you looking for an echo chamber, perhaps?

    Anyways. The forsaken (well, the Horde as a whole, actually, but we're talking specifically about the forsaken here) were the aggressors. So by realistic standards, they have to pay reparations in terms of loss of territory or resources. Or both. Because that is the result when you lose a war that you started. That's kind of like a police officer catching a thief in the act as he's trying to abscond with a TV from the house he just broke into, and instead of arresting the thief, the officer just lets him go.

    But, since this is a game, realistic standards can't always be applied and there needs to be some modicum of equity, so technically if one player faction gains something, the other has to gain something as well. Which is why we would never have a race defect one faction for the other, like it was teased back in MoP with the blood elves wanting to leave the Horde, or have one faction gain a new race in a new expansion while the other gets nothing, for example.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  13. #173
    Hey now you still have Silverpine
    Do you hear the voices too?

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    True but in this world we kick those people out of their land and kill them for their crimes. Like Blackmoore. By your logic we were wrong to attack Argus, because it was "rightfully" the property of the Legion.
    And if we didn't have the context of "The Legion is literally, currently, invading our world FROM Argus" surrounding it, yes, we'd have that crisis to deal with.

    If the enemy isn't our enemy FIRST, us invading and taking over their lands literally is a crisis of morality from the "good guys."

    No, it belongs to the humans because it was human kingdom under Terenas Menethil. Just because the Forsaken took advantage of the Scourge and murdered the last remaining humans under Garithos and then some of the farmers and other innocents, does not mean their claim to the land is legitimate and their actions after taking it only proved that no one should tolerate them there.
    That human kingdom died with Terenas Menethil. Lordaeron was abandoned to the undead.

    Garithos and his yoke ATTEMPTED to regain control of Lordaeron, and never succeeded. He was forced into an allegiance with the very Forsaken he fought against, planned to betray them at the end, and ultimately got betrayed himself. It's literally his comeuppance for fucking over the Blood Elves, and attempting to fuck over free willed undead.

    Sure, the trauma had something to do with it. But it's no excuse for all the atrocities they commited. Undead like the Ebon Blade have not become mass murderers after they got their free will back. People like Alonsus Faol even chose to remain a Priest of the Light...
    The Ebon Blade haven't become mass murderers? Last I checked, Death Knights literally NEED to kill in order to not feel like their entire being is tearing them apart.

    You have it backwards. The Forsaken murdered humans before Stormwind even knew they exist as a group.
    When? The story as told suggested Sylvanas sent envoys long before she started ordering people to kill humans, and she's the one who founded the Forsaken.

    And since Sylvanas purposefully did not go herself to explain the situation and instead chose to send people that to ANYONE that lived through the Scourge has to look like just a leftover ghoul... The result was clear.
    No leader of any political group goes in person to a meeting they know is likely to kill them. That's rather simple minded of you to consider.

    She sent the least likely to be accepted, to confirm that there was no chance. If she went herself, she's just as undead as they are. If they accepted ghouls, they could accept her - But if they couldn't accept the ghouls who assisted the Forsaken, then they couldn't accept the Forsaken. You are only as good as the sum of your parts, so if you can't accept the worst, you won't accept the best.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  15. #175
    Herald of the Titans Wangming's Avatar
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    See this is a big problem with these dumb faction war storylines. Since both sides are playable, it has to be fair. No no no, fuck that. War isn't fair. Especially if you start the war and then lose to the enemy. The orcs were put into internment camps for less. And it is always them. Always orcs or undead. Gul'dan, Ner'Zhul, Garrosh, Putress (if we honestly believe Sylvanas wasn't in on it) or Sylvanas herself.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Night elves were allowed to relocate to Hyjal and conquered Darkshore in a one sided scenario. When will the playable undead get their own scenario for Tirisfal? Lordaeron belongs to the forsaken always and forever. No i don’t want replies from alliance zealots. Stay out of my topic.
    euuuhhh you do know that the scream queen kinda blew it up with toxic stuff right?

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    See this is a big problem with these dumb faction war storylines. Since both sides are playable, it has to be fair. No no no, fuck that. War isn't fair.
    I'll grant you that on both points. If factions made sense then the forsaken wouldn't exist. And "fairness" for what it's worth, would demand a neutral faction.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Tirisfal has never belonged to the Forsaken. I don't oppose them living there, but they don't own the land.
    I still say forsaken living in the hollowed out husk of Teldrassil would be fitting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I still say forsaken living in the hollowed out husk of Teldrassil would be fitting.
    Haha im down with that.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  20. #180
    Herald of the Titans Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I'll grant you that on both points. If factions made sense then the forsaken wouldn't exist. And "fairness" for what it's worth, would demand a neutral faction.
    Oh definitely. A faction that bands together to support each other. For those who are awlays caught in the crossfire when the Alliance and the Horde go to war.

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