Let's pivot away from real-world geopolitics and history, and back to the fantasy-based discussion of Forsaken lands and their ownership.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Honestly, Lordaeron doesn't make a ton of sense to try and take back. It's not exactly ideally located to be terribly defensible and requires the Horde to seriously stretch supplies in order to take and keep it.
What would make a lot more sense is if the Forsaken and the Blood Elves teamed up to retake Stratholme and repurpose that as a home for the Forsaken. Then work at taming the rest of the Eastern Plaguelands. This way, in case of conflict, the Horde can also send reinforcements to Silvermoon and then to Stratholme. It has the added benefit of being further away from Ironforge and Stormwind, and also Gilneas (should the Worgens ever make an attempt to retake it).
Oh dear! They are undead? I had no idea! Thought that was just a bad skin condition...
I know they are and I know they view humans and really all living things with jealousy and hate. Since that is so, the question is: Why do you expect anyone to return their lands to them? Their morality doesn't account for the living, but everyone else's does. You basically argue to let creatures settle close to human civilisation that in your own words see no difference between killing humans or rats. Why would ANYONE be okay with that?
This is exactly the same view as the Legion demons have of others and I don't think anyone in their right mind would let demons take over a piece of Azeroth to settle and build up a military force there.
Basically you are making a great case for why the Forsaken should be eradicated as soon as possible.
Garithos was a racist douche, no doubt. But there is no evidence this extended to the Forsaken, mainly because Sylvanas never gave him the chance. I agree that he might have tried something, because he was such a bastard, but this is all circumstantial evidence. We just assume he would go that way because of his treatment of the Elves and Dwarfs, know of no plan to betray the Forsaken. Meanwhile we have clear evidence that Sylvanas was plotting against the humans from the start, we have her own words for that.
In another threat I laid out that Garithos, being the sociopathic ass he is, might even see value in the control of undead and decide to actually join Sylvanas given the chance.
If you mean when she jumped from the top, then duh, of course she didn't use it since she wanted to die. Or do you mean in that dungeon when running away from the Lich King? Simple game mechanics, she didn't because she was needed for the fight. You might as well ask why Jaina did not teleport us away immediatedly.
It's actually not that hard to explain. Banshee's are ghosts, they are incorporeal and they do not stand they float and thus can fly. Those are just basic facts of their existence. The bigger question really is how our swords can kill any Banshee, not just Sylvanas. Probably again a point where game mechanics trump lore. The only thing special about Sylvanas is that she can somehow turn her undead body incorporeal too, but nothing suggests that this is a new power.
I mean remember how in front of Orgrimmar Jaina and Thalryssa were talking about whatever she used to kill Saurfang, they were confused because they clearly had not seen that kind of power before, but no one was surprised when she shot up in the sky neither there nor at Lordaeron and in both cases very experienced and knowledgeable people were there to question it.
She didn't want to lead them as a true leader but she needed them to follow her commands, hence they had to flock to her. She puts it perfectly in "Edge of Night", the Forsaken digusted her, but their need empowered her. That "need" would be taken away if anyone else had been offering them refuge and with that her power would have been broken. So demonstrating how humans would kill them on sight was very beneficial to her, even if it cost a few of her soldiers.
What atrocities are you even talking about? Nobody even knew they existed after they murdered Garithos and the blight creation began immediatedly afterwards with human test subjects. So tell me what ever did the humans do to the Forsaken in that time span that justifies these actions?
Does Sylvanas strike you as someone that just hopes for things to turn out the way she wants? No, she hates hope, she plans and schemes until the deck is so stacked that things go her way. Yes, it was a pretty safe bet that only weeks after the Scourge a Ghoul walking into a human city would be killed and questions asked later. Accepting the Forsaken as something else would be difficult, it required a real explanation and a negotiator. Why did Sylvanas not send a letter first and an envoy later? Because she did not want to succeed. Plain and simple.
Oh, so now the Forsaken are the VICTIMS? They started a genocidal war, they gotta pay. I see no reason why they would have any place to live on Azeroth anymore.
Look what you did to Hillsbrad Foothills, just plagued everything. The Forsaken are only about destruction. They might as well live under a rock. Since they drown everything in green goo anyway, I'm sure they won't notice the difference.
No, the Forsaken do not deserve a new home. They deserve to rot in hell for all I care.
Regards
the Night Elves
Pfft...the way things are written the forsaken would have been an unplayable race by now.
Every race should have gone after them and killed everyone and everything related to them.
To give my two cents but while the Forsaken will undoubtably want to reclaim Lordaeron, Turalyon is set on reclaiming former Alliance territory which will inevitably include Lordaeron since it was the bastion of the Alliance back in his day, and if he does indeed end up doing as such the Forsaken will be lucky if it's neutral territory
Though that is assuming he can claim all the land before the Horde can, I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a hotspot of Faction conflict, along with everywhere that borders Night Elf territory, and probably the Ghostlands
Edit: and also Turalyon himself is a Lordaeronian native, along with a decent chunk of Stormwind civilians, so this would definitely be a "both sides have a point" situation
Last edited by Psykho; 2021-03-16 at 02:48 PM.
Yes, but still what you are saying is wrong. The land belonged to Terenas, then his heir Arthas (who technically is still alive at this point, and since you want to ignore morality, he is the rightful king of Lordaeron by blood) and if we disregard Arthas it goes to Calia. The land belongs to the royalty not some random mob of citizens that decide it is theirs now and least of all does it belong to a High Elf from another kingdom.
Again. They murdered Garithos and his entire army in cold blood.
I notice you are really bad at remembering things that work against your point. The deal between Garithos and Sylvanas was that Gari would get Lordaeron, they weren't going to share the city or anything, so your gotcha kinda falls flat.
Okay, so why did Jaina not teleport to Dalaran with us immediatedly? A spell she used dozens of times before. If you don't allow game mechanics to account for this then what is the reason?
"The spectral Banshees can fly "
From the WC3 unit discription. http://classic.battle.net/war3/undea.../banshee.shtml
Not really a lot of headcannon.
So what you ask for is evidence that she did not change her viewpoint, instead of accepting that she did not and hence why there is no evidence for that. I see. So to ask the less ridiculous question then, where is your evidence that she did in fact change her viewpoint before?
First of all, these things happened AFTER their first massacre of humans, secondly, you must be friggin joking if you call this "atrocities" that do in any way justify their sick experiments.
But ye, I think this will do, you are twisting lore as you like, making up timelines how it suits you. Basically you do what 99% of the Horde posters here always do in their attempts to justify and normalize the crazy shit that faction is up to. Think I will pass on further conversations with you.
Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)
What is even going on here?
Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor
The Forsaken should get back Lordaeron once Teldrassil is fully restored and the Alliance is allowed to kill exactly the same number of Forsaken as Night Elves died in Teldrassil. Most Forsaken were able to flee Undercity, most Night elves were unable to flee Teldrassil, so Lordaeron should only be returned to the Forsaken once they faced the same level of mass death.
Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor
Hopefully they all rot away and we don’t have to deal with zombies any more.
I'd say the Argent Crusade are one of the "true owners" of Lordaeron since they're from the Lordaeronian military and Silver Hand priests and paladins. They're okay with Forsaken so the Forsaken are still one of the "true owners" of Lordaeron too and the Alliance has no reason to force them out
The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!
I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.
After the Gnomes stop slacking and get Gnomeregan back. Nobody will miss Gnomeregan as a dungeon. Do it Blizz.