When will the Forsaken get their lands back?

[Razion]

I still say forsaken living in the hollowed out husk of Teldrassil would be fitting.

That's rad as hell. In full support of that.

[huth]

I mean in general, not in one or two specific cities. So what is your point? Btw I am already aware that a part of Germany was annexed by Poland at the end of WWII, thanks for nothing oh wise one.

Germany would have been cut down quite a bit more than that if not for the Cold War and the US wanting to use them as a bulwark against communism.

[Kithelle]

The other guy was talking about Darnassus, not about the UC.

My point is Germans didn't abandon Germany to the allies, can't really lose claim on something you didn't abandon

[Aucald]

Let's pivot away from real-world geopolitics and history, and back to the fantasy-based discussion of Forsaken lands and their ownership.

[jellmoo]

Honestly, Lordaeron doesn't make a ton of sense to try and take back. It's not exactly ideally located to be terribly defensible and requires the Horde to seriously stretch supplies in order to take and keep it.

What would make a lot more sense is if the Forsaken and the Blood Elves teamed up to retake Stratholme and repurpose that as a home for the Forsaken. Then work at taming the rest of the Eastern Plaguelands. This way, in case of conflict, the Horde can also send reinforcements to Silvermoon and then to Stratholme. It has the added benefit of being further away from Ironforge and Stormwind, and also Gilneas (should the Worgens ever make an attempt to retake it).

[omeomorfismo]

Actually Dalaran, the scarlet crusade, arugal, the syndicate, various ogres, the scourge and likely many more did dispute that, all the way back in vanilla already.
Killing the rightful owners does not automatically make you the rightful owner. It becomes even iffier if the ones making claims are dead themselves.

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The alliance literally bulldozed most of the stuff that wasn't blighted, and i'm unsure of the fate of the rest.

Though yeah, the forsaken should still control what's left, though the remnants might have gotten purged by the Scarlets just as easily.

thats exactly how property work, human conquered troll lands, scourge conquered human lands, forsaken conquered scourge lands...

[lagiacrux]

When will the night elves get Teldrassil back?

afaik its uninhabited right now

*insert-free-real-estate-meme*

[Raisei]

Forsaken have a naturally skewed view of humanity, given that they're, well... undead.

Didn't think I'd have to explain that, but here we are I guess. If you can't look at a situation and read it properly, don't come argue on a lore forum, thanks.

But yes, this is a common trope with undead, the don't value humanity because they have none. Their morality doesn't account for humanity because they have none. Experimenting on humans is no different than experimenting on rats to them, because humans are no different than rats when it comes to literal undead.

Oh dear! They are undead? I had no idea! Thought that was just a bad skin condition...

I know they are and I know they view humans and really all living things with jealousy and hate. Since that is so, the question is: Why do you expect anyone to return their lands to them? Their morality doesn't account for the living, but everyone else's does. You basically argue to let creatures settle close to human civilisation that in your own words see no difference between killing humans or rats. Why would ANYONE be okay with that?
This is exactly the same view as the Legion demons have of others and I don't think anyone in their right mind would let demons take over a piece of Azeroth to settle and build up a military force there.

Basically you are making a great case for why the Forsaken should be eradicated as soon as possible.

Literally the entirety of WC3 spelled that out for you, but ok, deny lore if you feel like it.

Garithos was a racist douche, no doubt. But there is no evidence this extended to the Forsaken, mainly because Sylvanas never gave him the chance. I agree that he might have tried something, because he was such a bastard, but this is all circumstantial evidence. We just assume he would go that way because of his treatment of the Elves and Dwarfs, know of no plan to betray the Forsaken. Meanwhile we have clear evidence that Sylvanas was plotting against the humans from the start, we have her own words for that.

In another threat I laid out that Garithos, being the sociopathic ass he is, might even see value in the control of undead and decide to actually join Sylvanas given the chance.

And yet she just decided, even when close to death in Icecrown, not to use it.

If you mean when she jumped from the top, then duh, of course she didn't use it since she wanted to die. Or do you mean in that dungeon when running away from the Lich King? Simple game mechanics, she didn't because she was needed for the fight. You might as well ask why Jaina did not teleport us away immediatedly.

You're pulling heavily at straws which just aren't there. Not only does her being a Banshee not automatically grant her insane levels of power, nor the ability to just nope-out of any situation (We've fought many Banshees who had no such power), but even if it DID, there's no telling how long it took her to master such a power, nevermind that it would be an entirely DIFFERENT situation as a Banshee with a body. (She spent the entirety of Arthas' charge through Quel'thalas, up to the moment that Illidan attacked the Frozen Throne, as JUST a Banshee with no body. Then she had to go GET her body, as she had only just broken free of Arthas' control.)

It's actually not that hard to explain. Banshee's are ghosts, they are incorporeal and they do not stand they float and thus can fly. Those are just basic facts of their existence. The bigger question really is how our swords can kill any Banshee, not just Sylvanas. Probably again a point where game mechanics trump lore. The only thing special about Sylvanas is that she can somehow turn her undead body incorporeal too, but nothing suggests that this is a new power.
I mean remember how in front of Orgrimmar Jaina and Thalryssa were talking about whatever she used to kill Saurfang, they were confused because they clearly had not seen that kind of power before, but no one was surprised when she shot up in the sky neither there nor at Lordaeron and in both cases very experienced and knowledgeable people were there to question it.

She didn't even want to lead the Forsaken prior to killing herself at Icecrown, so that doesn't make ANY sense.

She wanted revenge on Arthas. The Forsaken were a tool towards accomplishing that. She didn't need them to fear her - She literally just said "I'm gonna go kill the guy who did this to you" and they all rallied underneath her.

She didn't want to lead them as a true leader but she needed them to follow her commands, hence they had to flock to her. She puts it perfectly in "Edge of Night", the Forsaken digusted her, but their need empowered her. That "need" would be taken away if anyone else had been offering them refuge and with that her power would have been broken. So demonstrating how humans would kill them on sight was very beneficial to her, even if it cost a few of her soldiers.

It was AFTER Icecrown and her apparent meeting with the Jailer that she shifted to wanting to rule the Forsaken. There was a clear shift in the way she governed them that proved this. The Forsaken were mostly given leave to do whatever they desired (Yes, including torturing humans, nobody said that wasn't WRONG morally, but to THE FORSAKEN, it was just payback for atrocities committed against them).

What atrocities are you even talking about? Nobody even knew they existed after they murdered Garithos and the blight creation began immediatedly afterwards with human test subjects. So tell me what ever did the humans do to the Forsaken in that time span that justifies these actions?

until after Icecrown, when suddenly all undead had to be ok with being raised first, asked if they wanted to be raised later. It was after Icecrown when suddenly there was no Desolate Council allowed. It was after Icecrown that she suddenly became scared of a "true leader" of Lordaeron showing up, or that she might die again (when she previously wished for it), or that she should even get involved in Horde/Alliance politics beyond joining the Horde for safety reasons.

Nothing pre-Icecrown gives you any idea that she gives a shit about the Forsaken serving her, aside from them getting her revenge on Arthas. And nothing pre-Icecrown requires the Forsaken to think nobody will accept them - In fact, most places just didn't. Sylvanas didn't need to do anything to make that happen. But even putting that aside, the Forsaken acted against Arthas pre-Icecrown, and would continue to act against Arthas so long as he lived and potentially held some semblance of control over them.

Does Sylvanas strike you as someone that just hopes for things to turn out the way she wants? No, she hates hope, she plans and schemes until the deck is so stacked that things go her way. Yes, it was a pretty safe bet that only weeks after the Scourge a Ghoul walking into a human city would be killed and questions asked later. Accepting the Forsaken as something else would be difficult, it required a real explanation and a negotiator. Why did Sylvanas not send a letter first and an envoy later? Because she did not want to succeed. Plain and simple.

[Northem]

Oo god hes back.

I have never completely left

[Eggroll]

You don't get to bulldoze over an entire playable race and get to call it fair. The Forsaken deserve to keep Lordaeron the same way night elves get Darkshore and Ashenvale. This is not up to discussion.

Oh, so now the Forsaken are the VICTIMS? They started a genocidal war, they gotta pay. I see no reason why they would have any place to live on Azeroth anymore.
Look what you did to Hillsbrad Foothills, just plagued everything. The Forsaken are only about destruction. They might as well live under a rock. Since they drown everything in green goo anyway, I'm sure they won't notice the difference.

No, the Forsaken do not deserve a new home. They deserve to rot in hell for all I care.
Regards
the Night Elves

[Shadowferal]

Pfft...the way things are written the forsaken would have been an unplayable race by now.
Every race should have gone after them and killed everyone and everything related to them.

[Psykho]

To give my two cents but while the Forsaken will undoubtably want to reclaim Lordaeron, Turalyon is set on reclaiming former Alliance territory which will inevitably include Lordaeron since it was the bastion of the Alliance back in his day, and if he does indeed end up doing as such the Forsaken will be lucky if it's neutral territory

Though that is assuming he can claim all the land before the Horde can, I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a hotspot of Faction conflict, along with everywhere that borders Night Elf territory, and probably the Ghostlands

Edit: and also Turalyon himself is a Lordaeronian native, along with a decent chunk of Stormwind civilians, so this would definitely be a "both sides have a point" situation

[Raisei]

Because they are rightfully theirs. Their morality literally doesn't change who the land belongs to, that's what I've been saying.

Yes, but still what you are saying is wrong. The land belonged to Terenas, then his heir Arthas (who technically is still alive at this point, and since you want to ignore morality, he is the rightful king of Lordaeron by blood) and if we disregard Arthas it goes to Calia. The land belongs to the royalty not some random mob of citizens that decide it is theirs now and least of all does it belong to a High Elf from another kingdom.

Because the undead weren't doing that at the time.

Again. They murdered Garithos and his entire army in cold blood.

(Spoiler: He tries to kick her out of Lordaeron, so obviously he WASN'T going to group up all buddy buddy with the Forsaken.)

I notice you are really bad at remembering things that work against your point. The deal between Garithos and Sylvanas was that Gari would get Lordaeron, they weren't going to share the city or anything, so your gotcha kinda falls flat.

Conveniently doesn't use ultra mega power to escape literal scenario in which she is dying, "OBVIOUSLY GAME MECHANICS" because it doesn't fit your view.

You're really bad at this

Okay, so why did Jaina not teleport to Dalaran with us immediatedly? A spell she used dozens of times before. If you don't allow game mechanics to account for this then what is the reason?

This is a lot of headcanon. Got a canon source for it, or are you just pulling it out of your ass? (Spoiler: I know it's the latter.)

"The spectral Banshees can fly "

From the WC3 unit discription. http://classic.battle.net/war3/undea.../banshee.shtml

Not really a lot of headcannon.

Oh, would you look at that! In the short story in which she literally changed her viewpoint - She changed her viewpoint!

You're right, that totally gives you the right to apply that to every moment prior to that, obviously, because characters don't have formative moments like this short story, they must have just always been that way.

So what you ask for is evidence that she did not change her viewpoint, instead of accepting that she did not and hence why there is no evidence for that. I see. So to ask the less ridiculous question then, where is your evidence that she did in fact change her viewpoint before?

1) Immediate rejection from Stormwind when the Forsaken attempted to reach out to them.
2) Immediate repudiation for their existance in Lordaeron's ruins, as if the living had any claim to the ruins they abandoned.
3) The Scarlet Crusade in general, which exists and is present IN TIRISFAL as of Vanilla WoW.

First of all, these things happened AFTER their first massacre of humans, secondly, you must be friggin joking if you call this "atrocities" that do in any way justify their sick experiments.

But ye, I think this will do, you are twisting lore as you like, making up timelines how it suits you. Basically you do what 99% of the Horde posters here always do in their attempts to justify and normalize the crazy shit that faction is up to. Think I will pass on further conversations with you.

[Minikin]

Ye, that is the last thing I read about it to, so maybe with NEW knowledge after SL we might be able or rather should be able to strike quite a blow at those pesky ghouls who still linger there and actually take the f over. I always liked Stratholme and it would be a much safer refuge for the Forsaken as a whole and also the place has a lot of lore to it so it would feel very rich.

With that entrance it's kinda ironic,fun and interesting at the same time, cus it's the same entrance as SW. So we would have an undead SW and a human SW in a way.

Plus the portal right next door to Blood elf lands if they need support

[Traveler Voltin]

What is even going on here?

[Diaphin]

The Forsaken should get back Lordaeron once Teldrassil is fully restored and the Alliance is allowed to kill exactly the same number of Forsaken as Night Elves died in Teldrassil. Most Forsaken were able to flee Undercity, most Night elves were unable to flee Teldrassil, so Lordaeron should only be returned to the Forsaken once they faced the same level of mass death.

[Traveler Voltin]

The Forsaken should get back Lordaeron once Teldrassil is fully restored and the Alliance is allowed to kill exactly the same number of Forsaken as Night Elves died in Teldrassil. Most Forsaken were able to flee Undercity, most Night elves were unable to flee Teldrassil, so Lordaeron should only be returned to the Forsaken once they faced the same level of mass death.

So you want another faction war?

[Devilyaki]

Hopefully they all rot away and we don’t have to deal with zombies any more.

[Ardenaso]

I'd say the Argent Crusade are one of the "true owners" of Lordaeron since they're from the Lordaeronian military and Silver Hand priests and paladins. They're okay with Forsaken so the Forsaken are still one of the "true owners" of Lordaeron too and the Alliance has no reason to force them out

[Xykotic]

After the Gnomes stop slacking and get Gnomeregan back. Nobody will miss Gnomeregan as a dungeon. Do it Blizz.