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  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans
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    In the majority of cases yes, we should care about public lands and keeping a healthy environment.
    Some exceptions could be made if the area is rich in rare materials that would benefit the local population and if environmental impact could be minimal.

  2. #22
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    That's not what I asked I said if it was okay for people to destroy the graves and desecrate the bodies of members of your family members and loved ones. So is that a no? because these people know where their loved ones are buried. You seem to have no idea about our history when it comes to land ownership with natives.
    If they know where the remains are buried and it's on public property then they should relocate them to private property if they want to have control of the situation.

    I personally don't care about spiritual stuff. We should build cremation sites right next to the dump so that the ashes can just slide right in. It literally makes no difference unless you're like those Egyptian pharaohs who thought your burial effects the afterlife. It was a huge waste of resources that didn't benefit society. Out with the old, in with the new, imo.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I apologize, some words trigger me and then I turn into a shock jock.
    "Mentioning indigenous spiritual practices trigger me to the point the racism just starts coming out" has to be up there with "Ambien made me say the n-word" as far as shitty excuses for reflexive bigotry. Fucking lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    If they know where the remains are buried and it's on public property then they should relocate them to private property if they want to have control of the situation.
    The remains were there before the property was ever conquered, sweaty. Maybe the private property should be put elsewhere.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    If they know where the remains are buried and it's on public property then they should relocate them to private property if they want to have control of the situation.

    I personally don't care about spiritual stuff. We should build cremation sites right next to the dump so that the ashes can just slide right in. It literally makes no difference unless you're like those Egyptian pharaohs who thought your burial effects the afterlife. It was a huge waste of resources that didn't benefit society. Out with the old, in with the new, imo.
    You seriously have no clue about the long painful history of these public lands and natives? you are making yourself look like a complete idiot here.

  5. #25
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    You seriously have no clue about the long painful history of these public lands and natives? you are making yourself look like a complete idiot here.
    History is full of painful events but there is not much we can do about it now and eventually people learn to let go of the past and be happy about embracing a new and better future.

    Maybe Copper isn't very expensive right now and Biden has temporarily put this Copper mine on the back-burner which means there is nothing wrong at all. However if Copper demand and prices increase in the future then it may need to change, so just keep an open mind and we'll revisit this several years from now.
    Last edited by PC2; 2021-03-13 at 08:24 PM.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  6. #26
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    History is full of painful events but there is not much we can do about it now and eventually people learn to let go of the past and be happy about embracing a new and better future.
    I'm sure it's very easy to move past shit and pretend it didn't happen when the result of said things in the past is a system that favors you.

    That's called privilege, sweetheart. And refusing to reckon with the past and its material consequences is a luxury of privilege that these people don't have, even if you do.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    So I'd rather grow civilization and speed up human progress so that Earth is more like a ecumenonpolis where future people could simply experience nature in a virtual space whenever they want.
    LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Yeah if my ancestors couldn't be relocated then I'd have an ethical responsibility to greenlight a mining project that could destroy their corpses. Reason being is that society needs metal to prosper and succeed where as the remains and honor of my ancestors is just something that is nice to have but it doesn't help society in any real way.
    Careful, your fascism is showing.
    “Leadership: Whatever happens, you’re responsible. If it doesn’t happen, you’re responsible.” -- Donald J. Trump, 2013

    "I don't take responsibility at all."
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  8. #28
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I'm sure it's very easy to move past shit and pretend it didn't happen when the result of said things in the past is a system that favors you.

    That's called privilege, sweetheart. And refusing to reckon with the past and its material consequences is a luxury of privilege that these people don't have, even if you do.
    Okay. I'm just saying in the future I think everybody will feel privileged to be living in modern times. Native Americans will probably leave their historical areas in greater numbers and go on to do great things around the world and won't feel so emotionally attached to these niche areas. For now the world has a "flag-planting culture" but it won't always be that way.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  9. #29
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Okay. I'm just saying in the future I think everybody will feel privileged to be living in modern times. Native Americans will probably leave their historical areas in greater numbers and go on to do great things around the world and won't feel so emotionally attached to these niche areas.
    "The process of cultural genocide being taken to its completion is a good thing, actually" isn't a particularly defensible point especially when you have been told that the process of displacement is a desired outcome by the system so that their lands can be commodified and exploited for personal financial gain. Again, it's just you having the benefit of coming out on top of the historical narrative and refusing to reckon with how you got there, what keeps you there, or at whose expense your position comes.

    Oscar Wilde was right when he said people are either charming or tedious, because shit like this definitely isn't charming. Lol.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-03-13 at 09:14 PM.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  10. #30
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Okay. I'm just saying in the future I think everybody will feel privileged to be living in modern times. Native Americans will probably leave their historical areas in greater numbers and go on to do great things around the world and won't feel so emotionally attached to these niche areas. For now the world has a "flag-planting culture" but it won't always be that way.
    Applauding cultural genocide because it could render some profit for capitalist oligarchs is probably the single least humane or reasonable thing I have seen you advocate in your history on this website, and that's a list with a fair amount of competition.

  11. #31
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    "The process of cultural genocide being taken to its completion is a good thing, actually" isn't a particularly defensible point especially when you have been told that the process of displacement is a desired outcome by the system so that their lands can be commodified and exploited for personal financial gain. Again, it's just you having the benefit of coming out on top of the historical narrative refusing to reckon with how you got there, what keeps you there, or at whose expense does your position comes.

    Oscar Wilde was right when he said people are either charming or tedious, because shit like this definitely isn't charming. Lol.
    Dude, people are just people, nobody "comes out on top". Maybe Chinese people will be the most powerful people but it literally doesn't matter unless you think some kinds of people are evil and if you're a jealous and envious person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ursus View Post
    LOL
    Are you familiar with the Holodeck from Star Trek? It seems crazy but I think something like that it is feasible in principle.
    Last edited by PC2; 2021-03-13 at 09:21 PM.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  12. #32
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Dude, people are just people, nobody "comes out on top".
    You can just say you aren't cognizant of any of the issues indigenous people face much less those limited to land rights, you know.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Okay. I'm just saying in the future I think everybody will feel privileged to be living in modern times. Native Americans will probably leave their historical areas in greater numbers and go on to do great things around the world and won't feel so emotionally attached to these niche areas. For now the world has a "flag-planting culture" but it won't always be that way.
    O sweet Jesus... Just stop already.

  14. #34
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    "The idea of preserving wilderness and public land is stupid because some Rich guy might be able to make a profitable strip mine or parking lot out of it!" Is some fucking Captain Planet villainy tier nonsense my dude, lmao.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Literally magical thinking. All problems will magically solve themselves in time without undue harm because the future is magical and perfect and you can definitely predict exactly when innovations will occur ahead of time.

    That's the real core bugaboo with his thinking. Any issue you raise with any position he holds gets this treatment; "oh, that doesn't matter, a solution will magically be pulled out of a unicorn's ass before it's ever a big enough problem to worry about." Just completely useless drivel.

    Worse than useless; he uses this argument to oppose actual efforts to solve the problem today, because a magical unicorn fart will appear in the future.
    And extremely ironic, since he is also, the "well we can't really learn anything from the past" guy.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    History is full of painful events but there is not much we can do about it now and eventually people learn to let go of the past and be happy about embracing a new and better future.

    Maybe Copper isn't very expensive right now and Biden has temporarily put this Copper mine on the back-burner which means there is nothing wrong at all. However if Copper demand and prices increase in the future then it may need to change, so just keep an open mind and we'll revisit this several years from now.
    I am saying this for your sake google it, this is not ancient history I am hoping you are not this dumb or racist.

  17. #37
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyonai View Post
    "The idea of preserving wilderness and public land is stupid because some Rich guy might be able to make a profitable strip mine or parking lot out of it!" Is some fucking Captain Planet villainy tier nonsense my dude, lmao.
    It's not villainy. When we mine more raw materials the supply goes up and price can go down which reduces the cost of products and constructing buildings. If people have no trouble buying goods and houses then there's no need to extract more raw materials, but if people are complaining about costs then they can't simultaeously say that life is too costly while blocking the ventures that would alleviate the problem. Plus it can create more jobs, increases economic activity in the US, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    And extremely ironic, since he is also, the "well we can't really learn anything from the past" guy.
    No, that's a misunderstanding of my point which relates to historical projection, statistical inference, and generalizations. I'm saying it's not possible to learn anything meaningful from historical data and past 'patterns' because it's only possible to learn from 'explanations' and the reasons for why the past happened in the way that it did. It's off-topic though so it's better to debate in DM rather than get the thread closed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    You can just say you aren't cognizant of any of the issues indigenous people face much less those limited to land rights, you know.
    Listen, I think indigenous people should get extra help if they are struggling. They're maybe 1% of the population so it's not going to break the bank to help them. My only point is that I don't like it when they make non-secular appeals and engage in ancestor worship because it's irrational.
    Last edited by PC2; 2021-03-14 at 06:17 AM.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    It's not villainy. When we mine more raw materials...
    Not the fucking point... Talking about preservation of the environment. Not screwing it for money.

  19. #39
    Yes but I think they should tap that Yellowstone caldera for geothermal energy.
    I would not support drilling for oil, fracking, or coal mining on public lands.
    Last edited by Nihilist74; 2021-03-14 at 07:38 PM.

  20. #40
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    It's not villainy. When we mine more raw materials the supply goes up and price can go down which reduces the cost of products and constructing buildings. If people have no trouble buying goods and houses then there's no need to extract more raw materials, but if people are complaining about costs then they can't simultaeously say that life is too costly while blocking the ventures that would alleviate the problem. Plus it can create more jobs, increases economic activity in the US, etc.
    Ignoring the cultural impact of that resource exploitation is the part that's Cartoonish 1880s Robber Baron villainous.

    No, that's a misunderstanding of my point which relates to historical projection, statistical inference, and generalizations. I'm saying it's not possible to learn anything meaningful from historical data and past 'patterns' because it's only possible to learn from 'explanations' and the reasons for why the past happened in the way that it did. It's off-topic though so it's better to debate in DM rather than get the thread closed.
    You don't have a point, there. Projections and inferences are perfectly legitimate scientific tools. And you use them, yourself, whenever it's convenient for you, you just pretend otherwise. Every single time you suggest that there might be an innovation in the future, for instance, that's based on historical projections you're making on past trends. It just carries the additional hiccup of being completely pulled out of your ass and not based on anything determinable in the first place.

    Listen, I think indigenous people should get extra help if they are struggling. They're maybe 1% of the population so it's not going to break the bank to help them. My only point is that I don't like it when people make non-secular appeals and engage in ancestor worship because it's irrational.
    Right, you support cultural genocide of those whose views you are so intolerant of that you dismiss their meaning wholesale.

    We knew that. You're just doubling down on how supremely awful your views are.

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