Page 10 of 10 FirstFirst ...
8
9
10
  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Whether you agree with the sentiment or not, this was the agreed upon generalization within the community around the time of Legion. This is likely what led to the resulting split of Survival to Melee, in order to make it more distinct from the other specs. You may not personally think it was lacking in its own identity, but clearly even in this thread all these years later this issue is still fairly divisive - despite Survival having such a lower representation in players after the rework.

    Survival was lacking in some kind of cohesive identity, and it just happened to be that they could make it that much more different to the other specs at the time. BM was "THE" pet spec, MM was "THE" shooter spec. SV was just "other" shooter spec, or even "other" pet spec.

    Other specs at the time of Legion had similar identity issues. Rogue specs had to differentiate themselves into Pirates, Ninjas, and Poisoners in order to make themselves sufficiently different, Warriors had to distinctly focus on the size and manner of wielding weapons in order to keep themselves different. But these are other examples.

    Even though it, Survival, had its own share of personality with venoms and traps and these 'other' tools that were generally speaking part of the Hunter fantasy as a whole and shared around the other two specs, they could still somehow lean into the other specs. Animal venom? Makes sense as part of a spec that focuses on beasts, that would have animal venom, or would be part of a sharpshooter spec that had a focus on shooting specialty arrows. This is the crutch of a lot of why SV was seen as just other and not it's own thing -- it could have led into other specs with their own explanations, whereas in other specs like Fire, Frost, Arcane, it would have been near impossible to explain why a Fire Mage is using a Frost spell -- they had distinct different tools and spells comparatively to say Hunter at the time which was a lot more general. But this is perhaps a larger issue on classes that has fantasy that revolves entirely around weapons and less to do with their own unique brand of magic and how those branches of magic are so visually distinct and special in their own right. That's another discussion.

    And, again, this is mostly a statement on the mentality at the time. Please don't take this as an attack on you or your supposed preference for old ranged Survival, which is a perfectly valid preference to have. This is just what was the thoughts around the community at the time and was probably what ultimately led to having Survival change to melee -- to trace back further to its roots that made it even more unique to BM and MM. SV was the one that got the short end of the stick. Was it fair? Probably not. Should Hunter have gotten a fourth spec or had SV expanded on further to solidify how it could be different from MM or BM? I mean, it could have very well been possible. Even now though, what most people seem to be clamoring for is not a return of Survival to be even more divergent and special in its own right but rather just as it was. It seems to me when these discussions start what people seem to be missing is the gameplay of old ranged Survival and while the visual fantasy is there and important to the concept, it could be there in the other specs and I'm not sure it would be as radical a separation of fantasy as is being portrayed here often enough.

    So while ultimately I can't say I agree with you, please understand that the direction of ranged SV was lacking, and it perhaps wasn't as obvious on expanding the flavor of SV. What would the solution have been -- okay, so they get a different animal venom for each ranged attack, maybe they're the only ones with traps... would that have worked? Mechanically, logically, yes. But in terms of being sufficient fantasy? I'm not as sure. SV still may have been perceived as "the MM with green arrows". Maybe the criticisms we would be dealing with now would be on the other foot and maybe people would have been saying it would have been a good opportunity to try melee Hunter - as it was in the past. To me it's pretty blatant that SV was the spec that was the least distinct, and that melee is the most distinct direction of Hunter that they have gotten in a very long time. It may be regrettable how things turned out to those who loved ranged SV, but I think this was ultimately the correct choice in terms of fulfilling a more distinct fantasy for the expansion that focused on having specs as different as possible.
    I do remeber reading a blue post quite sometime ago that the reason sv went melee is because blizz saw sv as simply another version/ magical version of MM, hence they went melee to distinguish it from MM. I feel mixed about their reasoning. On one hand I do like MSV, so I am glad MSV is a thing (hopefully will continue to be in the future...) but I don't remeber ranged SV feeling like a "magical" version of MM. Unless my memory is foggy ranged sv played/felt different enough from MM, one could argue that blizz could have kept sv ranged and differentiated it further from MM without having to go melee.

    I don't visit the official wow forums much (sub is not even active atm lol) but I do remeber I use to see quite a few posts about bringing RSV back as a 4th spec, so that way you keep everybody happy. MSV is still a thing for those who like melee sv and you have ranged sv for those who want to go ranged again. While I don't think there is anything wrong with that, I just don't see it happening. Fair warning I don't work for blizzard (so this is all guesswork on my part) but I have a feeling that if blizz gave hunters a 4th spec then other dps specs will want a 4th spec and blizzard doesn't want to deal with that mountain. That being said if blizz wanted to bring back RSV as a 4th spec, I would def. support that.

    I will say that if msv goes back to ranged, you would expect that move to happen during the interim for the next expansion. There is no way they would you would get a big revamp during an expansion. Which is why I kind of hold my breath praying there is no massive blue post concerning SV hunter during the pre expansion period, which is contrast to the usual " I hope blizz fixes X spec and makes post on it mentality" that most people have. Crossing fingers for the next pre-expansion period that msv still remains... kind of funny when msv is really the only spec that you hope still remains a thing, you don't see fury warriors hoping/crossing fingers that fury will still be a spec come next expansion.
    Last edited by Bisque; Yesterday at 09:10 AM. Reason: addition

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Bisque View Post
    I do remeber reading a blue post quite sometime ago that the reason sv went melee is because blizz saw sv as simply another version/ magical version of MM, hence they went melee to distinguish it from MM. I feel mixed about their reasoning. On one hand I do like MSV, so I am glad MSV is a thing (hopefully will continue to be in the future...) but I don't remeber ranged SV feeling like a "magical" version of MM. Unless my memory is foggy ranged sv played/felt different enough from MM, one could argue that blizz could have kept sv ranged and differentiated it further from MM without having to go melee.

    I don't visit the official wow forums much (sub is not even active atm lol) but I do remeber I use to see quite a few posts about bringing RSV back as a 4th spec, so that way you keep everybody happy. MSV is still a thing for those who like melee sv and you have ranged sv for those who want to go ranged again. While I don't think there is anything wrong with that, I just don't see it happening. Fair warning I don't work for blizzard (so this is all guesswork on my part) but I have a feeling that if blizz gave hunters a 4th spec then other dps specs will want a 4th spec and blizzard doesn't want to deal with that mountain. That being said if blizz wanted to bring back RSV as a 4th spec, I would def. support that.

    I will say that if msv goes back to ranged, you would expect that move to happen during the interim for the next expansion. There is no way they would you would get a big revamp during an expansion. Which is why I kind of hold my breath praying there is no massive blue post concerning SV hunter during the pre expansion period, which is contrast to the usual " I hope blizz fixes X spec and makes post on it mentality" that most people have. Crossing fingers for the next pre-expansion period that msv still remains... kind of funny when msv is really the only spec that you hope still remains a thing, you don't see fury warriors hoping/crossing fingers that fury will still be a spec come next expansion.
    Hmm. I used to think maybe the other dps central classes would maybe want for 4th specs if Hunter had gotten it first, but I think the knowledge of the separation issue is widespread enough that people would be more understanding -- this same kind of situation happened once with Feral/Guardian where two specs basically already existed, it just had to be made official. I think this may be another case of there potentially being a 4th spec already existing that is already half-supported, so it wouldn't be as much a detraction from other specs for this to be introduced.

    As others have pointed out, melee hasn't been a very good alternate role in Hunter (well, mostly) so, to this end while it is an option it's not like Hunter is having four total ranged dps specs. As a mSV player I am just happy for it to exist and I'm content if it's not as represented or if it's weak and I like that it's a little technical. I just think mSV is fun, so as the other was getting at, I think a lot of my perspective is probably warped by that admittedly.

    If a fourth spec was introduced I do wonder how it would all go down, as mSV may not have to work within the constraints of SV and may be free to be its own fantasy (as someone suggested at one point, an Aspect and Strikes theme). I think it all sounds fun.
    Last edited by Razion; Yesterday at 09:30 AM.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Bepples View Post
    Yes; it's distinct via weakness which causes most people to avoid it altogether.
    Agree on this one. Survival doesn't have the numbers (and we know numbers alone can bring players to spec), survival converts a ranged slot into melee (and we already know how well it works: Feral vc Balance is a classic example), survival doesn't have any unique utility compared to the other 2 specs and it's not even much better in terms of survivability.

    On top of this, instead of trying to further differentiate and actually do something with the idea they initially had, Blizzard took a weak route in SL giving SV things like Kill Shot, with again puts it further away from melee. Looks like they just don't know what to do with the spec and they can't take a firm stance on it.

  4. #184
    There is no need to change actual survival, it will piss off again players who play the specc now.

    But they can EASYLY integrate old survival ranged inside MM with talent!!!

    lvl 15 - Explosive shot talent - Replace aimed shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 25 - Black arrow - Replace Barbed shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 30 - Serpent Spread (passive) - Replace for AOE - Old Mop
    lvl 35 - Chimera - Replace arcane shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 40 - .....
    lvl 45 - Cobra shot - Replace steady shot - Old Mop
    lvl 50 - Lock and Load - Old Mop - With this talent Change the mastery to Old Mop Mastery

    Voilà, u got SV Mop inside MM

    Or just make a Single talent that replace everything above!!!!
    Last edited by Scarnage86; Yesterday at 10:00 AM.

  5. #185
    My stance is if they are to bring back RSV , then I would rather have it as a separate 4th spec instead of breaking up the current MSV talents into a ranged version and a melee version (and yes I know MSV really doesn't have to many melee attacks to begin with). I do not think blizz would do either spec justice msv and rsv if they had to share the same talent tree. Now are there changes I would make to the current MSV tree but if you had to balance it with additional "ranged sv" talents, I don't think the result would be good.

    Of course this is all assuming blizz wants to bring back RSV or are they sticking with their guns and leaving sv melee?

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    There is no need to change actual survival, it will piss off again players who play the specc now.

    But they can EASYLY integrate old survival ranged inside MM with talent!!!

    lvl 15 - Explosive shot talent - Replace aimed shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 25 - Black arrow - Replace Barbed shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 30 - Serpent Spread (passive) - Replace for AOE - Old Mop
    lvl 35 - Chimera - Replace arcane shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 40 - .....
    lvl 45 - Cobra shot - Replace steady shot - Old Mop
    lvl 50 - Lock and Load - Old Mop - With this talent Change the mastery to Old Mop Mastery

    Voilà, u got SV Mop inside MM

    Or just make a Single talent that replace everything above!!!!
    They tried to put SV into MM already and failed. But this also has its own issues regardless of whether they were successful or not anyways.

    Namely, it limits talent selection for both MM and old RSV fans. In order to get that playstyle, you would have to pick all of the SV talents and then be left with no room for variance to separate you from other SV hunters or further enhance your playstyle if you want to.

    Likewise, it limits MM's actual talent selection too since the damage profiles of the two specs were completely different. Mixing and matching leaves you with a jumbled mess and it makes it so there are less talents that might actually appeal to MM players.

    It's like trying to shove destro and aff Lock together. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense as far as gameplay is concerned, and even less sense thematically.

    It would be better to just make a 4th spec rather than keep one spec removed or weaken the talent selection of two different specs.

    Also as an aside, MM does not have barbed shot btw.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •