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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Whether you agree with the sentiment or not, this was the agreed upon generalization within the community around the time of Legion. This is likely what led to the resulting split of Survival to Melee, in order to make it more distinct from the other specs. You may not personally think it was lacking in its own identity, but clearly even in this thread all these years later this issue is still fairly divisive - despite Survival having such a lower representation in players after the rework.

    Survival was lacking in some kind of cohesive identity, and it just happened to be that they could make it that much more different to the other specs at the time. BM was "THE" pet spec, MM was "THE" shooter spec. SV was just "other" shooter spec, or even "other" pet spec.

    Other specs at the time of Legion had similar identity issues. Rogue specs had to differentiate themselves into Pirates, Ninjas, and Poisoners in order to make themselves sufficiently different, Warriors had to distinctly focus on the size and manner of wielding weapons in order to keep themselves different. But these are other examples.

    Even though it, Survival, had its own share of personality with venoms and traps and these 'other' tools that were generally speaking part of the Hunter fantasy as a whole and shared around the other two specs, they could still somehow lean into the other specs. Animal venom? Makes sense as part of a spec that focuses on beasts, that would have animal venom, or would be part of a sharpshooter spec that had a focus on shooting specialty arrows. This is the crutch of a lot of why SV was seen as just other and not it's own thing -- it could have led into other specs with their own explanations, whereas in other specs like Fire, Frost, Arcane, it would have been near impossible to explain why a Fire Mage is using a Frost spell -- they had distinct different tools and spells comparatively to say Hunter at the time which was a lot more general. But this is perhaps a larger issue on classes that has fantasy that revolves entirely around weapons and less to do with their own unique brand of magic and how those branches of magic are so visually distinct and special in their own right. That's another discussion.

    And, again, this is mostly a statement on the mentality at the time. Please don't take this as an attack on you or your supposed preference for old ranged Survival, which is a perfectly valid preference to have. This is just what was the thoughts around the community at the time and was probably what ultimately led to having Survival change to melee -- to trace back further to its roots that made it even more unique to BM and MM. SV was the one that got the short end of the stick. Was it fair? Probably not. Should Hunter have gotten a fourth spec or had SV expanded on further to solidify how it could be different from MM or BM? I mean, it could have very well been possible. Even now though, what most people seem to be clamoring for is not a return of Survival to be even more divergent and special in its own right but rather just as it was. It seems to me when these discussions start what people seem to be missing is the gameplay of old ranged Survival and while the visual fantasy is there and important to the concept, it could be there in the other specs and I'm not sure it would be as radical a separation of fantasy as is being portrayed here often enough.

    So while ultimately I can't say I agree with you, please understand that the direction of ranged SV was lacking, and it perhaps wasn't as obvious on expanding the flavor of SV. What would the solution have been -- okay, so they get a different animal venom for each ranged attack, maybe they're the only ones with traps... would that have worked? Mechanically, logically, yes. But in terms of being sufficient fantasy? I'm not as sure. SV still may have been perceived as "the MM with green arrows". Maybe the criticisms we would be dealing with now would be on the other foot and maybe people would have been saying it would have been a good opportunity to try melee Hunter - as it was in the past. To me it's pretty blatant that SV was the spec that was the least distinct, and that melee is the most distinct direction of Hunter that they have gotten in a very long time. It may be regrettable how things turned out to those who loved ranged SV, but I think this was ultimately the correct choice in terms of fulfilling a more distinct fantasy for the expansion that focused on having specs as different as possible.
    I do remeber reading a blue post quite sometime ago that the reason sv went melee is because blizz saw sv as simply another version/ magical version of MM, hence they went melee to distinguish it from MM. I feel mixed about their reasoning. On one hand I do like MSV, so I am glad MSV is a thing (hopefully will continue to be in the future...) but I don't remeber ranged SV feeling like a "magical" version of MM. Unless my memory is foggy ranged sv played/felt different enough from MM, one could argue that blizz could have kept sv ranged and differentiated it further from MM without having to go melee.

    I don't visit the official wow forums much (sub is not even active atm lol) but I do remeber I use to see quite a few posts about bringing RSV back as a 4th spec, so that way you keep everybody happy. MSV is still a thing for those who like melee sv and you have ranged sv for those who want to go ranged again. While I don't think there is anything wrong with that, I just don't see it happening. Fair warning I don't work for blizzard (so this is all guesswork on my part) but I have a feeling that if blizz gave hunters a 4th spec then other dps specs will want a 4th spec and blizzard doesn't want to deal with that mountain. That being said if blizz wanted to bring back RSV as a 4th spec, I would def. support that.

    I will say that if msv goes back to ranged, you would expect that move to happen during the interim for the next expansion. There is no way they would you would get a big revamp during an expansion. Which is why I kind of hold my breath praying there is no massive blue post concerning SV hunter during the pre expansion period, which is contrast to the usual " I hope blizz fixes X spec and makes post on it mentality" that most people have. Crossing fingers for the next pre-expansion period that msv still remains... kind of funny when msv is really the only spec that you hope still remains a thing, you don't see fury warriors hoping/crossing fingers that fury will still be a spec come next expansion.
    Last edited by Bisque; 2021-04-19 at 09:10 AM. Reason: addition

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Bisque View Post
    I do remeber reading a blue post quite sometime ago that the reason sv went melee is because blizz saw sv as simply another version/ magical version of MM, hence they went melee to distinguish it from MM. I feel mixed about their reasoning. On one hand I do like MSV, so I am glad MSV is a thing (hopefully will continue to be in the future...) but I don't remeber ranged SV feeling like a "magical" version of MM. Unless my memory is foggy ranged sv played/felt different enough from MM, one could argue that blizz could have kept sv ranged and differentiated it further from MM without having to go melee.

    I don't visit the official wow forums much (sub is not even active atm lol) but I do remeber I use to see quite a few posts about bringing RSV back as a 4th spec, so that way you keep everybody happy. MSV is still a thing for those who like melee sv and you have ranged sv for those who want to go ranged again. While I don't think there is anything wrong with that, I just don't see it happening. Fair warning I don't work for blizzard (so this is all guesswork on my part) but I have a feeling that if blizz gave hunters a 4th spec then other dps specs will want a 4th spec and blizzard doesn't want to deal with that mountain. That being said if blizz wanted to bring back RSV as a 4th spec, I would def. support that.

    I will say that if msv goes back to ranged, you would expect that move to happen during the interim for the next expansion. There is no way they would you would get a big revamp during an expansion. Which is why I kind of hold my breath praying there is no massive blue post concerning SV hunter during the pre expansion period, which is contrast to the usual " I hope blizz fixes X spec and makes post on it mentality" that most people have. Crossing fingers for the next pre-expansion period that msv still remains... kind of funny when msv is really the only spec that you hope still remains a thing, you don't see fury warriors hoping/crossing fingers that fury will still be a spec come next expansion.
    Hmm. I used to think maybe the other dps central classes would maybe want for 4th specs if Hunter had gotten it first, but I think the knowledge of the separation issue is widespread enough that people would be more understanding -- this same kind of situation happened once with Feral/Guardian where two specs basically already existed, it just had to be made official. I think this may be another case of there potentially being a 4th spec already existing that is already half-supported, so it wouldn't be as much a detraction from other specs for this to be introduced.

    As others have pointed out, melee hasn't been a very good alternate role in Hunter (well, mostly) so, to this end while it is an option it's not like Hunter is having four total ranged dps specs. As a mSV player I am just happy for it to exist and I'm content if it's not as represented or if it's weak and I like that it's a little technical. I just think mSV is fun, so as the other was getting at, I think a lot of my perspective is probably warped by that admittedly.

    If a fourth spec was introduced I do wonder how it would all go down, as mSV may not have to work within the constraints of SV and may be free to be its own fantasy (as someone suggested at one point, an Aspect and Strikes theme). I think it all sounds fun.
    Last edited by Razion; 2021-04-19 at 09:30 AM.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Bepples View Post
    Yes; it's distinct via weakness which causes most people to avoid it altogether.
    Agree on this one. Survival doesn't have the numbers (and we know numbers alone can bring players to spec), survival converts a ranged slot into melee (and we already know how well it works: Feral vc Balance is a classic example), survival doesn't have any unique utility compared to the other 2 specs and it's not even much better in terms of survivability.

    On top of this, instead of trying to further differentiate and actually do something with the idea they initially had, Blizzard took a weak route in SL giving SV things like Kill Shot, with again puts it further away from melee. Looks like they just don't know what to do with the spec and they can't take a firm stance on it.

  4. #184
    There is no need to change actual survival, it will piss off again players who play the specc now.

    But they can EASYLY integrate old survival ranged inside MM with talent!!!

    lvl 15 - Explosive shot talent - Replace aimed shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 25 - Black arrow - Replace Barbed shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 30 - Serpent Spread (passive) - Replace for AOE - Old Mop
    lvl 35 - Chimera - Replace arcane shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 40 - .....
    lvl 45 - Cobra shot - Replace steady shot - Old Mop
    lvl 50 - Lock and Load - Old Mop - With this talent Change the mastery to Old Mop Mastery

    Voilà, u got SV Mop inside MM

    Or just make a Single talent that replace everything above!!!!
    Last edited by Scarnage86; 2021-04-19 at 10:00 AM.

  5. #185
    My stance is if they are to bring back RSV , then I would rather have it as a separate 4th spec instead of breaking up the current MSV talents into a ranged version and a melee version (and yes I know MSV really doesn't have to many melee attacks to begin with). I do not think blizz would do either spec justice msv and rsv if they had to share the same talent tree. Now are there changes I would make to the current MSV tree but if you had to balance it with additional "ranged sv" talents, I don't think the result would be good.

    Of course this is all assuming blizz wants to bring back RSV or are they sticking with their guns and leaving sv melee?

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    There is no need to change actual survival, it will piss off again players who play the specc now.

    But they can EASYLY integrate old survival ranged inside MM with talent!!!

    lvl 15 - Explosive shot talent - Replace aimed shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 25 - Black arrow - Replace Barbed shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 30 - Serpent Spread (passive) - Replace for AOE - Old Mop
    lvl 35 - Chimera - Replace arcane shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 40 - .....
    lvl 45 - Cobra shot - Replace steady shot - Old Mop
    lvl 50 - Lock and Load - Old Mop - With this talent Change the mastery to Old Mop Mastery

    Voilà, u got SV Mop inside MM

    Or just make a Single talent that replace everything above!!!!
    They tried to put SV into MM already and failed. But this also has its own issues regardless of whether they were successful or not anyways.

    Namely, it limits talent selection for both MM and old RSV fans. In order to get that playstyle, you would have to pick all of the SV talents and then be left with no room for variance to separate you from other SV hunters or further enhance your playstyle if you want to.

    Likewise, it limits MM's actual talent selection too since the damage profiles of the two specs were completely different. Mixing and matching leaves you with a jumbled mess and it makes it so there are less talents that might actually appeal to MM players.

    It's like trying to shove destro and aff Lock together. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense as far as gameplay is concerned, and even less sense thematically.

    It would be better to just make a 4th spec rather than keep one spec removed or weaken the talent selection of two different specs.

    Also as an aside, MM does not have barbed shot btw.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    There is no need to change actual survival, it will piss off again players who play the specc now.

    But they can EASYLY integrate old survival ranged inside MM with talent!!!

    lvl 15 - Explosive shot talent - Replace aimed shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 25 - Black arrow - Replace Barbed shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 30 - Serpent Spread (passive) - Replace for AOE - Old Mop
    lvl 35 - Chimera - Replace arcane shot - Old mechanic from MOP
    lvl 40 - .....
    lvl 45 - Cobra shot - Replace steady shot - Old Mop
    lvl 50 - Lock and Load - Old Mop - With this talent Change the mastery to Old Mop Mastery

    Voilà, u got SV Mop inside MM

    Or just make a Single talent that replace everything above!!!!
    they did this in legion and if u spec'd like this your damage was complete shit and the spec played horribly.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    they did this in legion and if u spec'd like this your damage was complete shit and the spec played horribly.
    They didn't really do that at all but it's a dumb idea anyway.
    At that point you can just create a 4th spec because most of these talents wouldn't work by themselves.
    Not to mention all the missing interactions with covenants, conduits, legendaries etc. etc.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-04-20 at 10:52 AM.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Bisque View Post
    I don't visit the official wow forums much (sub is not even active atm lol) but I do remeber I use to see quite a few posts about bringing RSV back as a 4th.
    This.


    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    If a fourth spec was introduced I do wonder how it would all go down, as mSV may not have to work within the constraints of SV and may be free to be its own fantasy (as someone suggested at one point, an Aspect and Strikes theme). I think it all sounds fun.
    I'm not a MSV player myself so I won't propose any changes for it based on personal preferences. Having said that, there are quite a few things that can be done to further it's theme/fantasy and how to tie all that into the wilderness aspects.

    As for other players(of MSV), one of the more common requests is to add a DW-option for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bisque View Post
    My stance is if they are to bring back RSV , then I would rather have it as a separate 4th spec instead of breaking up the current MSV talents into a ranged version and a melee version (and yes I know MSV really doesn't have to many melee attacks to begin with).
    Indeed, we should also avoid the path of attempting to merge RSV with MM. It would only serve to destroy MM in the process, and it wouldn't give us a proper version of RSV anyway.



    I revisited my old concept/topic about a modern version of RSV as a fully developed 4th spec option. Changed and added a few things to further explore it's main theme/fantasy. See the full post below here for specifics:

    As usual, any numbers mentioned are only here to provide further depth to the concept and are ofc subject to change.

    Core Abilities


    [Cobra Shot] - Instant cast
    A quick shot causing X Physical damage.

    Generates 7 Focus.

    [Explosive Shot] - 20 Focus - Instant cast - 10 sec recharge - 2 charges
    Fire an explosive charge into the enemy target, dealing Fire damage. The charge will blast the target every second for an additional 4 sec.

    [Black Arrow] - 30 Focus - Instant cast - 30 sec cooldown
    Fire a shot infused with dark energy at the target, dealing Shadow damage over 12 sec.

    The periodic damage-effect applied by Black Arrow can be stacked up to 3 times on the same enemy.

    [Serpent Sting] - 15 Focus - Instant cast
    Fire a shot that poisons your target, causing them to take Nature damage over 15 sec.

    [Arcane Shot] - 20 Focus - Instant cast
    A quick shot that causes X Arcane damage.

    [Multi-Shot] - 40 Focus - Instant cast
    Fires several missiles, hitting up to 5 targets within 8 yards of your current target for X Physical damage.

    Multi-Shot applies Serpent Sting to all targets hit.

    [Immolation Trap] - Instant cast - 1 minute cooldown
    Hurls a fire trap to the target location that will burn the first enemy to approach for X Fire damage over 20 sec. Trap will exist for 1 min.


    Class-wide abilities


    [Kill Shot] - 10 Focus - Instant cast - 10 sec recharge - 1 Charge
    You attempt to finish off a wounded target, dealing X Physical damage.

    Only usable on enemies with less than 20% health.


    Major Cooldown


    [Munition Tactics] - 20 sec duration - 2 minute cooldown.
    Increases your haste by X% and instantly triggers Lock & Load(Passive). When Explosive Shot is used during Munition Tactics, this resets the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow.

    Any time Explosive Shot deals damage to a target affected by Black Arrow, during Munition Tactics, this will cause the periodic damage effect applied by Black Arrow to spread to nearby enemies as well.
    (This effect is replaced by a different passive effect when engaged in instanced PvP; If your Black Arrow is at any time dispelled or otherwise removed from an enemy target, this instantly resets the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow.)


    Mastery


    [Mastery Bonus: Toxicology] - Increases all non-physical damage dealt by X%, based on Mastery.


    Passive Effects


    [Lone Wolf] - Increases your damage by 10% when you do not have an active pet.

    [Lock and Load] - Periodic damage dealt by Black Arrow and Immolation Trap have a chance to cause your next Explosive Shot to cost no Focus and trigger no cooldown.

    [Trap Mastery] - Tar Trap now slows approaching enemies by an additional X%, and the effect sticks to the enemy for 3 seconds after they have left the tar.

    The trigger radius as well as the radius of the effect on your Tar Trap is increased by 25%.

    Freezing Trap can now be triggered manually by the hunter once placed, causing it to form a fragile Ice Block that you can stand behind to protect yourself from frontal attacks until shattered. The ice block shatters after 8 seconds or once it has sustained enough damage.
    Manually triggering it requires you to stand in close vicinity to the trap.

    [Serpent’s Focus] - Using Cobra Shot several times in a row will increase the amount of Focus generated by each shot by 4. Stacking up to 3 times.

    [Serpent Spread] - Targets hit by Multi-Shot are also afflicted by Serpent Sting equal to 9 sec of it’s duration.

    [Exotic Munitions] - Your Auto Attacks have a chance to increase the remaining duration of either Serpent Sting, Black Arrow or Immolation Trap by 5 seconds, on an enemy affected by either of these periodic damage effects.


    Utility/defensives


    Includes all other abilities, such as [Tar Trap][Frost Trap][Aspect of the Turtle][Concussive Shot][Counter Shot][Tranquilizing Shot][Misdirection][Pet Utility][Exhilaration][Disengage][Feign Death], and more.

    Note that I would prefer if(on a class-wide basis)

    [Posthaste] - becomes a baseline effect.
    [Master’s Call] - becomes a baseline ability again.
    [Pet Specializations] - Ferocity, Tenacity, and Cunning, if they were changeable again.
    [Revive Pet] - Cast time brought down to 2 seconds again.
    [Camouflage] - becomes a baseline ability again.


    Talents



    – Level 15 –

    [Ever Burning] - If you fire Explosive Shot into an enemy already affected by a previous charge, the remaining duration of the previous charge is refreshed as well as increased by an additional 3 seconds.

    An active charge can only have a max duration of 9 seconds.

    Exotic Munition-procs now also increases the remaining duration of any active Explosive Shot charges you have on the current target by 3 seconds.
    [Noxious Stings] - Increases the periodic critical damage of your Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting, and Black Arrow by 25%, and Serpent Sting now deals increased damage against targets below 30% health.
    [Fusion Shot] - (Replaces Cobra Shot) - 1.5s cast time(castable while moving) - 6 sec recharge - 2 Charges
    Fire a charged shot into the target, dealing Physical damage, triggering a volatile fusion when your next ability that deals periodic damage hits, causing it to erupt dealing additional instant damage equal to 40% of it’s total duration.

    The target will take additional damage of the same type as the ability used to trigger the fusion for the next 12 sec.

    Generates 25 Focus.

    – Level 25 –

    [Death Adder] - Serpent Sting also does instant damage equal to 30% of it’s total periodic effect. Also applies to Serpent Spread(Passive).

    Every time Serpent Sting deals damage, you have a chance to gain 3 Focus.

    If the passive effect “Exotic Munitions” procs while your Serpent Sting is active on the target, this also triggers the Death Adder-effect.
    [Predator] - Casting Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, and Serpent Sting reduces the Focus cost and increases the damage of your next Arcane Shot by 30%. This effect stacks.
    [Viper Venom] - Whenever Serpent Sting deals damage, there’s a chance that this can cause any other periodic damage effects you have applied to the target to instantly deal damage equal to one tick of their total effect.

    If this proc occurs when the target is affected by Black Arrow, this will instantly refresh it’s remaining duration and restore 8 Focus back to you.

    – Level 30 –

    [Trailblazer] - [Natural Mending]

    [Bestial Dicipline] - (Replaces Camouflage as a talent choice) - While your pet is active, you and your pet(s) regenerate X% of total health every 3 sec. Healing done to you and your pet(s) is increased by X%.

    Damage taken by your pet(s) is reduced by 15%.

    When Lone Wolf(Passive) is active, you continue to heal for the same amount of health.

    – Level 35 –

    [Cluster Shot] - 25 Focus - Instant cast - 15 sec cooldown.
    Fire a shot which explodes on impact, instantly dealing Physical damage to the primary target and all other nearby enemies, and causing them to bleed for an additional X Physical damage over 3 sec.

    Explosive Shot-charges which are still active on any target(s) hit by Cluster Shot will instantly erupt, dealing all remaining damage to the affected target(s) at once.
    [Wildfire] - 8 sec duration
    The periodic damage effect applied by Immolation Trap will now spread to any enemy standing in close range to an already burning target. As long as an enemy is within range of another enemy affected by Wildfire or Immolation Trap, the Wildfire will continue to spread.
    [T.N.T.] - Explosive Shot now deals damage to all enemies near the affected target.

    – Level 40 –

    [Born to be Wild] - [Binding Shot]

    [Adaption] - (Replaces Posthaste as a talent choice) Getting hit with an incapacitating effect(Stun/Fear), reduces the remaining cooldown of your Aspect of the Turtle by 30%. This effect has an internal cooldown of X sec.

    Aspect of the Turtle is now usable when incapacitated.

    When rooted or slowed, the remaining cooldown of Aspect of the Cheetah is reduced by 15 seconds. Aspect of the Cheetah frees you from movement impairing effects and you cannot be slowed below 100% movement speed while it’s active.

    – Level 45 –

    [Spitting Cobra] - Cobra Shot now deals an additional X% damage as Nature damage and extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by X sec.

    Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.
    [Pre-Heat] - The cooldown of Immolation Trap is reduced by 5 seconds every time Immolation Trap deals critical damage to the enemy target.

    In addition, if an enemy target dies while affected by Immolation Trap, it’s cooldown is reset.
    [Intoxication] - Your ranged Auto Attacks have a chance to grant you 2 stacks of Intoxication. When Black Arrow is refreshed or when it expires from an enemy, you gain this effect as well.

    Intoxication
    When you use an ability that deals instant damage, it has a 100% chance to be a critical strike.
    When you use an ability that deals periodic damage, damage caused by this ability is increased by an additional X%.

    – Level 50 –

    [Rapid Recuperation] - Damage caused by Explosive Shot have a chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Munition Tactics by 1 sec.

    Whenever Lock & Load procs, this causes the next Explosive Shot fired to have a 100% chance for each of it’s ticks to reduce the remaining cooldown of Munition Tactics by 1 sec.
    [Catalysis] - Duration 10 sec.
    Black Arrow increases any Fire-damage you deal to an enemy by X%.

    In addition, Explosive Shot-charges granted by Lock & Load extend the remaining duration of Black Arrow by 1 second every time they deal damage to the affected target.
    [Resourcefulness] - Reduces the cooldown of all traps and Black Arrow by 20%. Your Freezing Trap and Tar Trap both have a 100% chance to proc Lock & Load when triggered.

    Freezing Trap when triggered manually can now withstand 100% more damage before shattering.

    When an enemy breaks free from your Freezing Trap, they will take an additional 10% damage from all sources for the next X seconds.

    Critical damage dealt by Immolation Trap is increased by X%.

    Bonus effects/Bonus Traits


    Got no good names for these traits/bonuses yet but…just wanted to add in some potential fun bonus effects that are spec specific. They can be tied to things such as Set Bonuses or something similar to Artifact Traits/Azerite Traits of the past.

    (1) Lock and Load now grants 2 charges of Explosive Shot when it procs, instead of 1.

    (2) When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc. It will grant you an additional bonus effect depending on which periodic damage-effect it benefits.

    Serpent Sting - Until the current Serpent Sting debuff expires or is refreshed, every time it deals damage to the target, you instantly gain 3 Focus.

    Black Arrow - The remaining cooldown of Black Arrow is instantly reset.

    Immolation Trap - Your next Immolation Trap will deal an extra X% damage and will also have an increased X% chance to critically hit the affected target.

    (3) Arcane Shot now triggers the passive effect “Exotic Munitions” when it hits an enemy target.
    Last edited by F Rm; 2021-04-21 at 12:04 PM.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by F Rm View Post
    This.




    I'm not a MSV player myself so I won't propose any changes for it based on personal preferences. Having said that, there are quite a few things that can be done to further it's theme/fantasy and how to tie all that into the wilderness aspects.

    As for other players(of MSV), one of the more common requests is to add a DW-option for it.




    Indeed, we should also avoid the path of attempting to merge RSV with MM. It would only serve to destroy MM in the process, and it wouldn't give us a proper version of RSV anyway.



    I revisited my old concept/topic about a modern version of RSV as a fully developed 4th spec option. Changed and added a few things to further explore it's main theme/fantasy. See the full post below here for specifics:

    As usual, any numbers mentioned are only here to provide further depth to the concept and are ofc subject to change.



    [Cobra Shot] - Instant cast
    A quick shot causing X Physical damage.

    Generates 7 Focus.

    [Explosive Shot] - 20 Focus - Instant cast - 10 sec recharge - 2 charges
    Fire an explosive charge into the enemy target, dealing Fire damage. The charge will blast the target every second for an additional 4 sec.

    [Black Arrow] - 30 Focus - Instant cast - 30 sec cooldown
    Fire a shot infused with dark energy at the target, dealing Shadow damage over 12 sec.

    The periodic damage-effect applied by Black Arrow can be stacked up to 3 times on the same enemy.

    [Serpent Sting] - 15 Focus - Instant cast
    Fire a shot that poisons your target, causing them to take Nature damage over 15 sec.

    [Arcane Shot] - 20 Focus - Instant cast
    A quick shot that causes X Arcane damage.

    [Multi-Shot] - 40 Focus - Instant cast
    Fires several missiles, hitting up to 5 targets within 8 yards of your current target for X Physical damage.

    Multi-Shot applies Serpent Sting to all targets hit.

    [Immolation Trap] - Instant cast - 1 minute cooldown
    Hurls a fire trap to the target location that will burn the first enemy to approach for X Fire damage over 20 sec. Trap will exist for 1 min.




    [Kill Shot] - 10 Focus - Instant cast - 10 sec recharge - 1 Charge
    You attempt to finish off a wounded target, dealing X Physical damage.

    Only usable on enemies with less than 20% health.




    [Munition Tactics] - 20 sec duration - 2 minute cooldown.
    Increases your haste by X% and instantly triggers Lock & Load(Passive). When Explosive Shot is used during Munition Tactics, this resets the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow.

    Any time Explosive Shot deals damage to a target affected by Black Arrow, during Munition Tactics, this will cause the periodic damage effect applied by Black Arrow to spread to nearby enemies as well.
    (This effect is replaced by a different passive effect when engaged in instanced PvP; If your Black Arrow is at any time dispelled or otherwise removed from an enemy target, this instantly resets the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow.)




    [Mastery Bonus: Toxicology] - Increases all non-physical damage dealt by X%, based on Mastery.




    [Lone Wolf] - Increases your damage by 10% when you do not have an active pet.

    [Lock and Load] - Periodic damage dealt by Black Arrow and Immolation Trap have a chance to cause your next Explosive Shot to cost no Focus and trigger no cooldown.

    [Trap Mastery] - Tar Trap now slows approaching enemies by an additional X%, and the effect sticks to the enemy for 3 seconds after they have left the tar.

    The trigger radius as well as the radius of the effect on your Tar Trap is increased by 25%.

    Freezing Trap can now be triggered manually by the hunter once placed, causing it to form a fragile Ice Block that you can stand behind to protect yourself from frontal attacks until shattered. The ice block shatters after 8 seconds or once it has sustained enough damage.
    Manually triggering it requires you to stand in close vicinity to the trap.

    [Serpent’s Focus] - Using Cobra Shot several times in a row will increase the amount of Focus generated by each shot by 4. Stacking up to 3 times.

    [Serpent Spread] - Targets hit by Multi-Shot are also afflicted by Serpent Sting equal to 9 sec of it’s duration.

    [Exotic Munitions] - Your Auto Attacks have a chance to increase the remaining duration of either Serpent Sting, Black Arrow or Immolation Trap by 5 seconds, on an enemy affected by either of these periodic damage effects.




    Includes all other abilities, such as [Tar Trap][Frost Trap][Aspect of the Turtle][Concussive Shot][Counter Shot][Tranquilizing Shot][Misdirection][Pet Utility][Exhilaration][Disengage][Feign Death], and more.

    Note that I would prefer if(on a class-wide basis)

    [Posthaste] - becomes a baseline effect.
    [Master’s Call] - becomes a baseline ability again.
    [Pet Specializations] - Ferocity, Tenacity, and Cunning, if they were changeable again.
    [Revive Pet] - Cast time brought down to 2 seconds again.
    [Camouflage] - becomes a baseline ability again.





    – Level 15 –








    – Level 25 –








    – Level 30 –





    – Level 35 –








    – Level 40 –





    – Level 45 –








    – Level 50 –










    Got no good names for these traits/bonuses yet but…just wanted to add in some potential fun bonus effects that are spec specific. They can be tied to things such as Set Bonuses or something similar to Artifact Traits/Azerite Traits of the past.

    (1) Lock and Load now grants 2 charges of Explosive Shot when it procs, instead of 1.

    (2) When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc. It will grant you an additional bonus effect depending on which periodic damage-effect it benefits.

    Serpent Sting - Until the current Serpent Sting debuff expires or is refreshed, every time it deals damage to the target, you instantly gain 3 Focus.

    Black Arrow - The remaining cooldown of Black Arrow is instantly reset.

    Immolation Trap - Your next Immolation Trap will deal an extra X% damage and will also have an increased X% chance to critically hit the affected target.

    (3) Arcane Shot now triggers the passive effect “Exotic Munitions” when it hits an enemy target.


    Reading all this survival ranged hit my nostalgia so hard already... ffs

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Bepples View Post
    No, you don't.

    And no, Survival is not just a few buffs away from being more popular than the other specs. Hunters have an aversion to playing melee and we can see this in tiers in the past where melee Survival did have favourable tuning.
    If they were like that they wouldn't clog up every survival topic ruining them for the people that are happy with survival being melee. in its old ranged incarnation it was just as marginalised now as then, they view those days thru rose tinted glasses, BM and MM dominated the hunter community.

  12. #192
    We know at this point that survival is not going back to ranged as that would require Blizzard admitting a colossal mistake of a rework and somehow working around Legion's artifact quest, all of which I can't see them doing. No, what survival absolutely needs at this point is shameless imbalance. I'm dead ass serious when I say that too; Survival needs an entire expansion akin to BfA Demon Hunters - a melee class so shamelessly blessed with benefits that it garnered a massive flavor of the month (which basically turned into flavor of the expansion) following. Survival needs THAT.

    It doesn't need the kitchen sink, it needs the whole damned kitchen. It needs baseline 115% movement speed, baseline 8 yard melee range like feral, a combat maneuver akin to DH fel rush or monk roll (in ADDITION to the harpoon), significant amounts of passive leech or combat based healing, a one or 1.5 minute defensive cooldown, passive defensive akin to soul leech/soul skin like a warlock and their pet and hell, maybe even give them a motherflowering immunity, cheat death or BOTH. We need it to be so blatantly incredible that when rogues and warriors see the class being played they look and say to themselves "Why am I not playing that spec?"

    Survival as it is is a good spec. That's not a joke, it seriously works, it has defined strengths and weaknesses. What it doesn't have is any sort of attractive representation to pull it away from a hunter's ranged specs or any of the other melee specs from other classes. We now have two whole expansions of a spec being utter bottom of the barrel in terms of player representation; we're now past the point of just tuning, we need all hands on deck emergency levels of IDGAF to give players some level of pride and enjoyment in playing the spec. Making it shamelessly imbalanced is the easiest and funnest way to accomplish that, and pvp tuning can be done separately.

    Personally I've always envisioned a class rework of survival being akin to Rexxar (pet bond) + Keeshan (combat improvisation + hardiness) and here being the kicker - Demon Hunters from Diablo 3. Make them a unique sort of mid-ranged melee that fights at 8 yard ranged, has 20-25 yard abilities like serpent sting, bombs, traps, throwing knives, caltrops, etc. Make the core rotation based around mongoose strike, maybe give them a minor cooldown that enhances melee range to 20-25 yards to emphasize mid-ranged fighting. Whatever it is, it needs to be overwhelmingly and completely unashamedly great. For an entire expansion. Survival NEEDS player representation if it's going to live, or they might as well just delete the spec entirely with the complete and utter lack of care and attention it receives.

  13. #193
    I agree with the sentiments above. Survival is less survivable than the other two specs, does less damage than the other two specs (outside of large AoE), and needs some love.

    The 9.1 buff to Raptor Strike & Kill Command still won't bring single target above other specs from simulations, and they haven't addressed some of the core issues, which is its less survivable than the other hunter specs (since its in melee range) and less survivable than all other melee dps.

    Baseline 115% move speed
    Baseline 8 yard melee range
    Baseline 10-15% leech
    Buff Exhilaration to a 50% heal
    Increase focus to 120 and/or boost focus regeneration by 10-20%
    Baseline soul-link type mechanic and/or buff base health by 10%
    In addition to the soul-link 20% of damage taken going to pet, have 20% of pet's healing flow to hunter
    Allow Aspect of Turtle to be used when stunned
    Have Raptor strikes have some kind of synergy - perhaps reducing the cooldown on coordinated assault and/or exhilaration.

    That wouldn't put Survival into the overpowered place that so many other specs are but would at least make Survival competitive.
    Last edited by Nazlug; 2021-06-11 at 02:14 AM.

  14. #194
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renatompassos View Post
    It's been a while we don't discuss it, so why not?
    Survival is a failure, evidence is undeniable and it hasn't stood the test of time and minor iterations throughout BfA and SL. I haven't seen one in ages, they're the bottom of the barrel in any statistical survey, even with decent dps (which doesn't happen). Hunters hate it or simply ignore it. Even the devs ignore it completely.
    Is it inevitable that we get our 3rd spec back at 10.0? It's gonna be definitely the time for class revamps (and this one is absolutely the most needed), IF they insist on not making a new class.
    Problem is they can't make it a good spec, which is something they should have considered. If they make it a good spec everyone is gonna cry because they're forced to play melee

    Easier just to leave it as it is...some people want to play it, like I do...I just wish there was some way they could actually make it a decent spec but because of human nature they can't.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Problem is they can't make it a good spec, which is something they should have considered. If they make it a good spec everyone is gonna cry because they're forced to play melee

    Easier just to leave it as it is...some people want to play it, like I do...I just wish there was some way they could actually make it a decent spec but because of human nature they can't.
    Man, they need to make some bold moves in 10.0, they really do. I think a new class is much more bombastic than class revamps but in case they're crazy enough to NOT bring it, a Survival revamp (back to ranged) would bring enough of a fuss to one of their top played classes ever. Blizz's failure is undeniable and they're masters at turning the tables with PR speeches such as "We have been watching closely as Survival hunters seem to miss their old days of sniping mobs/people with envenomed and explosive shots, so after listening to the community's feedback, they're having that back! All baked into a new kit of talents and abilities designed to enhance their class fantasy of wild ranger master of traps and poisons."

    The Legion questline will be a mess, though. Some nice suggestions have popped in this thread already. Anyway, this alone wouldn't be what's stopping them. Pride, lazyness, fear of messing it up (again)... All much more plausible.
    Last edited by renatompassos; 2021-06-11 at 01:42 AM.

  16. #196
    If the problem with old Survival coming back is the Legion spear being obsolete then surely there is nothing wrong with making Survival hunters have both a spear and ranged weapon. Fury Warrior shows that it is perfectly doable to have twice the normal amount of weapon stats. The only major problem would be how to code Survival with two weapon slots.

    Honestly this would be really cool as a spec fantasy in general. Survival is all about trickery and adaptability. Why not have them still carry around a spear and be capable of fighting in melee as well as ranged like how it actually worked back in Vanilla.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    If the problem with old Survival coming back is the Legion spear being obsolete then surely there is nothing wrong with making Survival hunters have both a spear and ranged weapon. Fury Warrior shows that it is perfectly doable to have twice the normal amount of weapon stats. The only major problem would be how to code Survival with two weapon slots.

    Honestly this would be really cool as a spec fantasy in general. Survival is all about trickery and adaptability. Why not have them still carry around a spear and be capable of fighting in melee as well as ranged like how it actually worked back in Vanilla.
    Heh I have toyed with this idea a few times to. You wouldn't even have to "stance dance", simply when the SV hunter is in melee range he will use melee attacks raptor strike/mongoose bite, auto attack with melee and when you the SV hunter gets out of melee range, he will automatically switch to ranged attacks , so replace raptor strike/mongoose bite with "X shot" and auto attacks with ranged. Blizz could put a cd between the switch from melee to ranged and vice versa so the switching won't be abused.

    Granted the concept is very, very rough and there are still questions about balancing, pvp , would the SV hunter have to hunt for both a ranged weapon and a melee weapon or would everything be based off the melee weapon whilst the ranged part, the bow part is only cosmetic. Is coding any issue, are animations an issue is it to "unrealistic" and yes I know that is silly in fantasy game with magic and elves etc...

    -Assuming blizz would still want SV hunters to be doing most of their damage in melee instead of pew pew from afar then you would have to give some incentive to attacking in melee range or at the very least blending ranged and melee together as opposed to doing everything ranged. Maybe like raptor strike/mongoose bite does X % more damage than when the SV is using the ranged shot attack (no name for it yet). Or maybe attacking in melee builds up "X" which will then allow you to do more damage from ranged for a set period of time. Thus you are rewarding the SV hunter who utilizes both melee and ranged instead of just doing everything from ranged.

    Now to be be fair, the above is just wild and reckless speculation and if I am being honest, I don't see it happening and I don't see MSV going ranged again. At best RSV comes back as a 4th spec (and even then I have my doubts).

    Assuming msv still remains a thing (and I hope it does, I really do enjoy the spec), I think you have 2 scenarios:

    1) Blizz truly believes and is happy with how melee survival plays. Now that doesn't mean there won't be buffs/nerfs talent changes in the future but you won't see a big of a change of "make MSV ranged again"

    2) Blizz believes that MSV is a failed spec and will be reverted to ranged following whatever expansion comes after SL, OR they believe that MSV is a failure but won't revert to ranged because they are to proud/stubborn to admit they are wrong.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by dekksh View Post
    If they were like that they wouldn't clog up every survival topic ruining them for the people that are happy with survival being melee. in its old ranged incarnation it was just as marginalised now as then, they view those days thru rose tinted glasses, BM and MM dominated the hunter community.
    Did you really make an account just to post this nonsense? No, ranged SV was not a marginalised spec. It was routinely a widely popular and enjoyed spec, even reaching "most popular in the game" status on multiple occasions. We know this not because of faulty memory (which seems to be the basis for your post) but rather representation statistics from the time from sites such as worldofwargraphs.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Bepples View Post
    Did you really make an account just to post this nonsense? No, ranged SV was not a marginalised spec. It was routinely a widely popular and enjoyed spec, even reaching "most popular in the game" status on multiple occasions. We know this not because of faulty memory (which seems to be the basis for your post) but rather representation statistics from the time from sites such as worldofwargraphs.
    *

    stop lying. surv as range was never ever even close to most popular spec in the game. not even once. it was never even most popular hunter specc. it was ALWAYS, every exp, every patch, the least popular specc and always the little brother in the shadow of mm. and played pretty much like a bad mm. this is some S tier nostalgia and history revision stalin would be green with envy off. surv aint ever going back to stand in the shadow of mm being just a watered down version of them, blizzard has already stated as such so pointless argue for it but some people just enjoy bashing their head against the wall repeatedly.

  20. #200
    Would be super cool if they remove survival and add dark ranger

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