Survival revamp inevitable?

[Vaedan]

This has always been a shit take. All Rogues use the same weapon types (dual-wielding one-handers) and use stealth but that doesn't make them the same thing. All Warlocks use fel magic and pets yet that doesn't make them the same thing. Both Warrior DPS specs are different varieties of angrily swinging a stick but they have enough key differences to warrant being different specs. A spec is more than just its choice of weapon and mode of damage output.

Saying SV and MM were the same because they happened to use a ranged weapon is a double-standard you don't apply to any other spec. The fact that you left BM out of that comparison, a spec that also uses a ranged weapon, shows that you do understand that thematic differences on top of the weapon can warrant a different spec. In SV's case, SV focused on exotic munitions and utility. This made sense because it was always meant to be the resourceful opportunist that made use of all available tools. Not using a ranged weapon makes zero sense in that context. It also doesn't make sense to make a spec inherently weaker by making it melee in a class otherwise cemented as ranged just to be different. What use is this uniqueness if it just establishes the spec as the worst option and causes everyone to avoid it?

It's not a double standard. Each rogue spec always had different feel - one is the stealthy ambusher using shadowy magic, the other is assassin relying on deadly poisons and the last is more of fighter who does not care about stealth that much and is more about combat prowess. It definitely make each spec feel different. Same for warlocks - one is using fire and fel magic to burn and annihilate its enemies with brute and raw magic, the other is using shadow magic and curses to slowly corrupt and destroy its enemies with afflictions and the other is master summoner who commands powerful demons. Three entirely different things. Each mage spec specializes in different kind of magic, etc.

I left out BM because it was thematicaly different enough, because it's the only hunter spec which brings out the fantasy of a animal handler. While it's indeed ranged spec, it have it's own idea and works very well fantasy wise, it doesn't matter it's ranged or melee. SV was not the same thing. All hunter specs were using traps, animal venoms and while it was SVs intended playground, it alone did not defined SV that well, or at least I assume, since it was changed in Legion rework. This theme remained part of SV, but to distinguish it more from other hunters, they decided to change the fighting style. In the end, SV was a collection of various hunter abilities which did not have any connection between each other (like how does exotic ammunitions goes together with animal toxins? How does that connect with traps? Should not be using ammunitions be rather tied to MM, since it is the "shooter" spec of the class?) and most likely Blizz felt the urge to do something big with the spec with Legion, which was all about bringing out the spec identity to the front with artifacts.

Now, read my other posts. I already said that I don't think it was really necessary and there could be other ways to flesh out the spec and make it feel more as it's own. What's done is done, and over time, I eventually start to enjoy the spec, even though I did not really like it back in Legion. You can't deny it's a unique spec. Sure, it's not everyone's favourite, but it's fun and rewarding if you master it. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but neither is any other spec in the game. If you don't like this spec, you have like 35 others to chose from.

[Sondrelk]

It's not a double standard. Each rogue spec always had different feel - one is the stealthy ambusher using shadowy magic, the other is assassin relying on deadly poisons and the last is more of fighter who does not care about stealth that much and is more about combat prowess. It definitely make each spec feel different. Same for warlocks - one is using fire and fel magic to burn and annihilate its enemies with brute and raw magic, the other is using shadow magic and curses to slowly corrupt and destroy its enemies with afflictions and the other is master summoner who commands powerful demons. Three entirely different things. Each mage spec specializes in different kind of magic, etc.

I left out BM because it was thematicaly different enough, because it's the only hunter spec which brings out the fantasy of a animal handler. While it's indeed ranged spec, it have it's own idea and works very well fantasy wise, it doesn't matter it's ranged or melee. SV was not the same thing. All hunter specs were using traps, animal venoms and while it was SVs intended playground, it alone did not defined SV that well, or at least I assume, since it was changed in Legion rework. This theme remained part of SV, but to distinguish it more from other hunters, they decided to change the fighting style. In the end, SV was a collection of various hunter abilities which did not have any connection between each other (like how does exotic ammunitions goes together with animal toxins? How does that connect with traps? Should not be using ammunitions be rather tied to MM, since it is the "shooter" spec of the class?) and most likely Blizz felt the urge to do something big with the spec with Legion, which was all about bringing out the spec identity to the front with artifacts.

Now, read my other posts. I already said that I don't think it was really necessary and there could be other ways to flesh out the spec and make it feel more as it's own. What's done is done, and over time, I eventually start to enjoy the spec, even though I did not really like it back in Legion. You can't deny it's a unique spec. Sure, it's not everyone's favourite, but it's fun and rewarding if you master it. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but neither is any other spec in the game. If you don't like this spec, you have like 35 others to chose from.

The removal of ranged SV has had clear detrimental effects on MM though. Because of the harebrained idea of removing the version of hunter that specialized in useage of toxins and traps we have seen some of those abilities attempt to crrep int o MM where they don't belong.
In what world does Serpent Sting gel with the Sniper fantasy of MM other than the cursory similarity of both using arrows? Explosive shot is nice and all, but why does MM get teh ability that is clearly intended for a spec that uses underhanded tricks and is more of a gadgeteer?

Ranged Survival needss to return, not just because its removal meant we lost an entire spec that players love, but also so MM doesnt have ot be saddled with the residuals left behind.

[Varx]

I cant imagine why anyone would want to be melee DPS as a hunter, fantasy wise. You're the only archer class in the game and you choose to play as a 2 hander melee dps spec???????

Surv needs to be what its name implies, a tank spec. When 4th specs inevitably come out, surv needs to be made into a tank while the new 4th spec is a ranged dot spec like old surv. Perhaps dark ranger.

This is the way. Dont fight it. Surv DPS is bad and people who play it should feel bad.

[Vaedan]

The removal of ranged SV has had clear detrimental effects on MM though. Because of the harebrained idea of removing the version of hunter that specialized in useage of toxins and traps we have seen some of those abilities attempt to crrep int o MM where they don't belong.
In what world does Serpent Sting gel with the Sniper fantasy of MM other than the cursory similarity of both using arrows? Explosive shot is nice and all, but why does MM get teh ability that is clearly intended for a spec that uses underhanded tricks and is more of a gadgeteer?

Ranged Survival needss to return, not just because its removal meant we lost an entire spec that players love, but also so MM doesnt have ot be saddled with the residuals left behind.

I mostly agree. I can certainly live without MM using stings, but I would not really restrict traps. They serve more as class utility/control.

Funny thing is that current MSV leans to ranged playstyle anyway, at least in PvP. I usually kite melees at first and engage in melee to finish them off. Venthyr covenant makes enables you to be on range pretty well.

I would actually like if SV could somehow capture old Hunter feel of having both ranged and melee combat available... But that's my PVP PoV. I don't play PvE much last two expacs.

One of my ideas would be return of pernament aspects to the spec. First, Aspect of Eagle would affect Raptor Strike and basic attacks and would last until canceled. The other aspect would be Aspect of Dragonhawk, which would increase your AP and dodge rating. Only one of these aspects could be active at a time. In this way, you could chose to play on range when it's better to do so and also have benefits when it''s safe to melee. That would move survival into kind of ranged/melee hybrid, which is quite unique.

[melzas]

Melee players aren't a better or more valuable class of player, and ranged players aren't "boring ghouls". Hunters are not at fault for wanting ranged gameplay. This is exceptionally immature.

Woah, dude, way to completely miss the point. Like, holy shit, can you even comprehend what you are reading?

[Sylv_]

*

stop lying. surv as range was never ever even close to most popular spec in the game. not even once. it was never even most popular hunter specc. it was ALWAYS, every exp, every patch, the least popular specc and always the little brother in the shadow of mm. and played pretty much like a bad mm. this is some S tier nostalgia and history revision stalin would be green with envy off. surv aint ever going back to stand in the shadow of mm being just a watered down version of them, blizzard has already stated as such so pointless argue for it but some people just enjoy bashing their head against the wall repeatedly.

You're wrong, actually. There was a period of time where surv was the best spec. It outperformed by quite a margin. Guess your glasses are a bit hazy mate.

[hllfrmththrsd]

I started playing surv just to test is it really that bad as everyone is saying and...it's actually pretty fun to play. I understand some would like to make it range again and I have a solution for you - just make aspect of the eagle a permanent stance that you can activate/deactivate, switching between melee and range playstyle. Current rotation is pretty good and I don't see any big problems with the spec at the moment.

As for a total revamp - maybe a playstyle around traps would be nice but I don't know, I like the current one.

[Rezark]

I cant imagine why anyone would want to be melee DPS as a hunter, fantasy wise.

It's literally the only melee spec in the game that can tame its own pets. You really don't have to think very hard to come up with reasons why people want to play SV.

[threads]

I started playing surv just to test is it really that bad as everyone is saying and...it's actually pretty fun to play. I understand some would like to make it range again and I have a solution for you - just make aspect of the eagle a permanent stance that you can activate/deactivate, switching between melee and range playstyle. Current rotation is pretty good and I don't see any big problems with the spec at the moment.

As for a total revamp - maybe a playstyle around traps would be nice but I don't know, I like the current one.

current SV is garbage tier compared to how fun and fluid range SV was. melee SV is nearly the same shit as BM except u shoot a dot every couple seconds.

[Bisque]

I started playing surv just to test is it really that bad as everyone is saying and...it's actually pretty fun to play. I understand some would like to make it range again and I have a solution for you - just make aspect of the eagle a permanent stance that you can activate/deactivate, switching between melee and range playstyle. Current rotation is pretty good and I don't see any big problems with the spec at the moment.

As for a total revamp - maybe a playstyle around traps would be nice but I don't know, I like the current one.

Blizz kind of went with the "Trap Master" vibe in legion if you look at SV old talent tree. But the whole trap master thing lasted one expansion if I remember... My guess is the whole "traps are a pain to use in combat" and that is why the trap master aspect with melee SV went away. Honestly I wouldn't mind if they made Steel trap baseline for SV and put a new talent in its place. Steel trap would kind of recapture the whole "master trapper" aspect without going full Legion.

As for Aspect of the eagle being a permanent toggle, I mean yeah it could work have raptor strike switch to "raptor shot" when you step in range and vice versa.

In any case, if and this is a big IF as I doubt anyone on this forum has any "insider" knowledge of class design at blizzard- IF MSV goes ranged again or if they bring ranged SV back, it would be done during the interim of current expansion to new expansion. So for those who like MSV, I cross my fingers every expansion that blizzard is largely quiet regarding huge hunter changes and that MSV still remains a thing.

[Bepples]

It's not a double standard.

Yes it is, and you droning on about the thematic differences of all those specs only reinforces the fact that it's a double standard. It's trivial to describe the distinct thematic differences between ranged SV and MM the exact same way you did for all those specs. They're both Hunters and they both used ranged weapons, but they approached them in different ways. MM focused on raw prowess with ranged weapons with sniping and sharpshooting. This translated into more hardcasted physical-damaging burst. SV focused on the utilitarian side of Hunter with improved traps and special munitions. This translated into more mobility and sustained rot damage. It's a very similar thematic difference to that between Affliction and Destruction; even down to the differences in mode of damage. Yet it arbitrarily doesn't count in the same way for you.

SV was not the same thing. All hunter specs were using traps, animal venoms and while it was SVs intended playground, it alone did not defined SV that well

You just said literally a couple sentences ago that BM was thematically different enough through its specialty in pets despite the fact that all Hunters have pets, yet apparently SV's specialty in exotic munitions didn't count because other Hunter specs had Serpent Sting (which, as of WoD, they didn't) and traps? Yet another example of your double standards in play.

Specs are not meant to be totally separate and independent entities. They're part of the base class and are meant to share some things that are common to that foundation. This is why all Hunters get pets despite BM getting the pet spec, for example. Serpent Sting was, before WoD, something that all Hunters had. Survival, however, had all the critical integrations and improvements to it that made it iconically Survival. It got the talent that gave it an initial tick and massively increased damage and the talent that made Multi-Shot apply Serpent Sting. Same goes for traps. All Hunter specs had traps but Survival had better traps due to Entrapment (root effect) and Trap Mastery (shorter CDs, more damage where applicaple). This is exactly how it should be. In Legion Blizzard went into a frenzy of mutilating specs via pruning to try to make them as different as possible and now even they admit it was a mistake. If you're still under the impression that specs shouldn't be sharing anything you're years behind on this discussion. However, as we can see, you don't actually believe that unless you're talking about ranged Survival. Because you have a double standard.

This theme remained part of SV, but to distinguish it more from other hunters, they decided to change the fighting style.

This has never been a good argument for making SV melee. Specs need to be distinguished via strengths, not weaknesses. They need to add to the base class, not take away from it. Hunters, unlike most other classes, are firmly cemented as ranged-capable classes due to their use of the ranged weapon. This has been the bedrock foundation of the class from the start.

Yes, there are viable melee hunter archetypes in fantasy RPGs, but WoW Hunters revolve around ranged weapons (which is a fair decision because "hunter" is a broad archetype and the playable WoW class needs a more centralised and specific combat style). In this context it makes zero sense to "distinguish" a spec by making it melee. That's just cementing it as the worse option. It misses the entire poin of specs in WoW.

In the end, SV was a collection of various hunter abilities which did not have any connection between each other

Ah yes, and now it's the sensible blend of generic Warrior-esque physical hits, BM ripoffs, and a bomb and poison arrow thrown in for good measure? Listen to yourself. Ranged Survival's theme and aesthetic were infinitely more coherent than that of melee Survival.

like how does exotic ammunitions goes together with animal toxins? How does that connect with traps?

Toxins are exotic munitions, as are explosives. Just a reminder that SV still currently has both of these concepts so remember what they say about throwing stones in glass houses.

Traps are part of the utilitarian theme of the Hunter that Survival specialised in. Originally SV was just a utility spec. As time went on and they wanted each spec to have a unique, independent damage-dealing approach they had to come up with a framework for SV and the natural extension of the resourceful theme of SV into that space was by making it use specially-buffed shots.

Should not be using ammunitions be rather tied to MM, since it is the "shooter" spec of the class?

Should Arms and Fury be rolled into one spec because Arms is "the swords and axes spec"?

As it turns out, it's possible to have more than one spec that uses a ranged weapon while keeping them unique just as it's possible to have a dozen different melee weapon users. There are multiple approaches to ranged weapons. Special ammunition was not MM's approach.

and most likely Blizz felt the urge to do something big with the spec with Legion, which was all about bringing out the spec identity to the front with artifacts.

Yes they felt the need to butcher the spec because a) they were enamoured with melee combat and fantasy and thought Hunters would love it as much as they did and b) they went crazy with spec design philosophy, striving for each spec to be a totally separate unit almost akin to a different class and forsaking class identity in the process.

Now, read my other posts.

Unfortunately I did and I found nothing of value. It's mostly just you making bad excuses for Blizzard's mistakes.

What's done is done

It can and should be undone. The fact that it was made melee in the first place shows nothing is set in stone.

It's not everyone's cup of tea, but neither is any other spec in the game. If you don't like this spec, you have like 35 others to chose from.

Fuck that noise. I did choose from one of the game's 30+ specs and I chose Survival. I played it for years before Blizzard abruptly removed it and replaced it with something totally different. "Live and let live" died at that moment.

You might think unconditionally accepting negative changes and just working around them instead of addressing them is a virtue but it really isn't.

[Shinela]

... I just like the survival hunter gameplay xD It's my fav melee spec

[Vaedan]

Unfortunately I did and I found nothing of value. It's mostly just you making bad excuses for Blizzard's mistakes.

Perhaps you did not because you don't want to. The fact that Blizz already did the rework is a proof that they, the creators of the game, decided the spec is lacking on fantasy, something other players agreed on as well, and decided to change it. You are lost in years past and really, should already accept what happened.

While RSV was healthy and fluid spec and I personally don't think the change was necessary, it was done. Deal with it. Also, the fantasy of the spec was just poor. It was just hunter shooting from blow/gun, no logical synergies (like why do you combine explosives and toxins? Any special reason?), doing nothing special compared to other specs. That's why they changed that. They wanted clear spec fantasies for Legion to push artifacts more. More specs were hit by that and had their themes adjusted, but Survival was the biggest "victim". Also thanks to artifact weapon, I don't we will come back to RSV.

Sure, you feel salty for Blizz changing the spec you like to the way you don't like it anymore. I can understand that, it's not a nice thing to happen, but making aggressive posts on forums will not change a thing.

I have my own visions of survival hunter which are different then current melee version, but I know it's just that - a vision. I can understand why they went the route, I even get used to new MSV, but I would not mourn if it will ever go... I just don't think Blizzard have to change it because somebody liked the ranged spec 6 years ago.

[Rendark]

They should have gone crazy with it and made it a ranged healing spec.

[F Rm]

It's not a double standard. Each rogue spec always had different feel - one is the stealthy ambusher using shadowy magic, the other is assassin relying on deadly poisons and the last is more of fighter who does not care about stealth that much and is more about combat prowess. It definitely make each spec feel different. Same for warlocks - one is using fire and fel magic to burn and annihilate its enemies with brute and raw magic, the other is using shadow magic and curses to slowly corrupt and destroy its enemies with afflictions and the other is master summoner who commands powerful demons. Three entirely different things. Each mage spec specializes in different kind of magic, etc.

I left out BM because it was thematicaly different enough, because it's the only hunter spec which brings out the fantasy of a animal handler. While it's indeed ranged spec, it have it's own idea and works very well fantasy wise, it doesn't matter it's ranged or melee. SV was not the same thing. All hunter specs were using traps, animal venoms and while it was SVs intended playground, it alone did not defined SV that well, or at least I assume, since it was changed in Legion rework. This theme remained part of SV, but to distinguish it more from other hunters, they decided to change the fighting style. In the end, SV was a collection of various hunter abilities which did not have any connection between each other (like how does exotic ammunitions goes together with animal toxins? How does that connect with traps? Should not be using ammunitions be rather tied to MM, since it is the "shooter" spec of the class?) and most likely Blizz felt the urge to do something big with the spec with Legion, which was all about bringing out the spec identity to the front with artifacts.

Now, read my other posts. I already said that I don't think it was really necessary and there could be other ways to flesh out the spec and make it feel more as it's own. What's done is done, and over time, I eventually start to enjoy the spec, even though I did not really like it back in Legion. You can't deny it's a unique spec. Sure, it's not everyone's favourite, but it's fun and rewarding if you master it. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but neither is any other spec in the game. If you don't like this spec, you have like 35 others to chose from.

Beast Mastery was/is about the bond with the pet(s)/beasts. Fighting with and empowering it(them). And/or calling in additional wild animals to fight for you for a short period.

Marksmanship is the skilled sharpshooter who excells at accuracy and/or rate of fire.

Survival(pre-Legion) portrayed the fantasy of a munitions expert and a master of traps. The preference was towards augmenting shots by using poison, animal venom, and explosives, applying those to projectiles/arrows.


This same description-logic can be applied to any class/spec. It was no different when it came to the class, and to RSV, prior to Legion.

Perhaps you did not because you don't want to. The fact that Blizz already did the rework is a proof that they, the creators of the game, decided the spec is lacking on fantasy, something other players agreed on as well, and decided to change it. You are lost in years past and really, should already accept what happened.

While RSV was healthy and fluid spec and I personally don't think the change was necessary, it was done. Deal with it. Also, the fantasy of the spec was just poor. It was just hunter shooting from blow/gun, no logical synergies (like why do you combine explosives and toxins? Any special reason?), doing nothing special compared to other specs. That's why they changed that. They wanted clear spec fantasies for Legion to push artifacts more. More specs were hit by that and had their themes adjusted, but Survival was the biggest "victim". Also thanks to artifact weapon, I don't we will come back to RSV.

Sure, you feel salty for Blizz changing the spec you like to the way you don't like it anymore. I can understand that, it's not a nice thing to happen, but making aggressive posts on forums will not change a thing.

I have my own visions of survival hunter which are different then current melee version, but I know it's just that - a vision. I can understand why they went the route, I even get used to new MSV, but I would not mourn if it will ever go... I just don't think Blizzard have to change it because somebody liked the ranged spec 6 years ago.

The fantasy of the spec was just fine as it's own entity. Like I said above, the spec portrayed the idea of a Munitions Expert and a master of traps. Toxins, animal venom, explosives, along with magically infused arrows/bullets, they all fit that fantasy.

While other hunter specs used some toxins or traps, RSV was the spec to really delve deeper into what could be done with them. And more.

Like you said earlier about Rogues, all their specs relies on stealth and poisons. And, 1h melee weapons. The difference is how and how much. This is why it's called class fantasy.

This is why you're accused of having a double-standard when it comes to the ranged hunter specs that focused on the use of the weapon. Despite doing so in different ways.

Again, just to make it more clear:

All Rogue specs focus on 1h melee-weapons, stealth and poisons, the difference is how and how much. Going more into the mechanical side, you can even talk about how all Rogue specs fight through combo's and finishing moves.

All Hunter specs focus(ed) on the use of ranged weapons, pets, and traps. The difference was how and how much.

[Phala]

... I just like the survival hunter gameplay xD It's my fav melee spec

same. But i guess this kind of emotional outrage is pretty normal if you flip a spec 180° from where it was heading up until legion.

there are 2 scenarios at this point and both will lead to negativ feedback:
- survival staying the low-tier spec it is in 9.0. people will question its existence and blame blizzard for effectivly taking away 1 spec option incase marksman underperforms
- survival beeing actually strong (and melee needs to be strong to be viable in current game design). people will then blame blizzard for forcing them into melee to perform as a hunter

same should be the case for shamans/druids (melee/ranged hybrid). but they had this split from the very beginning and they are no "dps is the only option" classes to begin with. so they are kinda used to blizzard keeping their melee specs in the "that weird guy" trash category.

[KrayZ33]

The fantasy of the spec was just fine as it's own entity. Like I said above, the spec portrayed the idea of a Munitions Expert and a master of traps. Toxins, animal venom, explosives, along with magically infused arrows/bullets, they all fit that fantasy.

That's a f-ed up spec fantasy in my book because it's messing all over the place with just about everything.
Like.... a magic sword wielding ranger in heavy plate casting spells.

Munitions Expert sounds more like Marksman territory to me.
Poison and traps, versatility (in terms of 1 tool for all the jobs) and adaptability are more fitting for "Survival". I'd trade poison with bleed effects too because poison is usually specialized as well. Tracking should've been big too.
The whole technology stuff doesn't quite fit imho.

Maybe that's why they thought they had to make it melee, to take away guns, lul.

[F Rm]

That's a f-ed up spec fantasy in my book because it's messing all over the place with just about everything.
Like.... a magic sword wielding ranger in heavy plate casting spells.

Munitions Expert sounds more like Marksman territory to me.
Poison and traps, versatility (in terms of 1 tool for all the jobs) and adaptability are more fitting for "Survival". I'd trade poison with bleed effects too because poison is usually specialized as well. Tracking should've been big too.
The whole technology stuff doesn't quite fit imho.

The main issue here is that you're not basing this on the fact of what WoW actually is. For one, it's a fantasy world where there is such a thing as magic. Including magically infused/augmentations for projectiles/arrows, within the scope of WoW makes perfect sense. In short, WoW should not be compared to anything IRL or even certain other games, when it comes to determining what makes sense or not, design-wise. WoW is it's own thing, and builds on it's own set of rules.

When talking "coherency" and a clear identity, you can't judge this(RSV) based on how it involved multiple different types of augmentations/enhancements. Yes, it focused on many different types; animal venom, other toxins, explosives, and even magic. The thing here is, the "coherency" is in the fact that all of it was based on the use of a ranged weapon and on how you could enhance any projectiles/arrows used with said ranged weapon. It didn't need to focus solely on, for example, poisons/venom. It could focus on all of the above because it all fell under the same coherent theme of involving ranged weaponry.

---

are more fitting for "Survival"

The name of the spec; "Survival", hasn't really been relevant since the Vanilla/TBC-era. Back then, it was literally a talent category that focused on the parts of the class that involved our survivability. It was done in several ways; better traps, improved tracking, and straight up defensive bonuses as well. Along with some improvements to damage as well.

But once they began introducing more playstyle-defining elements(in WotLK), they simultaneously went away from this "Survival"-focus. At least in it's direct approach.

Honestly, they should've changed it's name as soon as they made it into a Core Specialization(like they did for all classes, going into Cataclysm). The new name should've been/should be: "Munitions". It fits perfectly with the main fantasy, it fits the class fantasy, and it falls in line with how they go about assigning names to specs, how said names want to make strong hints at the main focus of the spec in question.

---

Munitions Expert sounds more like Marksman territory to me.

It could, but nothing says that it has to be like that. Marksmanship as a spec in WoW is centered around the idea of a sharpshooter. One who focuses on having perfect aim or a high skill in handling the weapon, such as with the rate of fire. Is this all that MM could be? No, ofc not. But that's how they have chosen to design the spec and what they have chosen as the main theme/fantasy.

Mixing that together with the theme of a munitions expert/trapper who wants to favor the projectiles/arrows rather than the weapon itself, wouldn't turn out that well in this game. One reason for this being that there just isn't enough room within one spec to include it all. At least not if you want any sort of depth to both sides.


Take current Marksmanship, it's design and all the things that add depth to it/it's fantasy. Then, as an example, take what you can see in the link below:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-a-modern-spec

How can you possibly merge these two fantasies into one and maintain any sort of depth for each. How could you possibly achieve a satisfying level of gameplay that allows players to go in either direction, without it just touching the surface of either one?

[Schizoide]

Whether you personally feel Survival fits the Hunter class fantasy is of course just your opinion, man. What isn't opinion is it's an extremely unpopular spec.

In normal Nathria, survival parses were 5.17% of all hunters. Put that another way, 95% of Hunters don't play Survival. In heroic, 96% of hunters don't play Survival. And in mythic mode, 98% of hunters don't play Survival. Is that a failed spec? In raids, yeah. I mean, indisputably. (All parse counts sourced from WCL.)

What about mythic+ dungeons? There, 95% of Hunters choose not to play survival. Failed spec in M+ too.

Whatever the reason, WoW players don't want to play Survival. Overwhelmingly so.

[DazManianDevil]

Whether you personally feel Survival fits the Hunter class fantasy is of course just your opinion, man. What isn't opinion is it's an extremely unpopular spec.

In normal Nathria, survival parses were 5.17% of all hunters. Put that another way, 95% of Hunters don't play Survival. In heroic, 96% of hunters don't play Survival. And in mythic mode, 98% of hunters don't play Survival. Is that a failed spec? In raids, yeah. I mean, indisputably. (All parse counts sourced from WCL.)

What about mythic+ dungeons? There, 95% of Hunters choose not to play survival. Failed spec in M+ too.

Whatever the reason, WoW players don't want to play Survival. Overwhelmingly so.

This, the last time I willingly played Survival post Legion revamp was for Arenas during 8.3. THAT was super fun, but to say niche would be an understatement.
I'm willing to bet, even though Survival currently outsims MM and BM by a hefty margin, it will still be less than say 15% of all hunter players in the raid and M+ for S2.