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  1. #221
    I accomplished raid leading a kill tonight, but boy was it rough!!! I did SLG first and a combined 60 people wound up being present for one pull of either boss. Yet only 24 where in the kill, so my methods of screening people (raider.io mostly) were NOT good.

    Tonight was my first night raid leading it, although I'd been to the enrage before as a follower. I offered up a bit of gold to pugs, and 2-3 people came from the previous night's run, but 21 of the 24 people in the run came out of LFG.

    I generally try to run politely and calmly but I had to kick so many people that weren't prepared. It was bad. A few that were parsing ok but not great I also removed, although they were pretty salty and I can't blame 'em. I felt bad but this fight when you've got a group ready for the kill...after each wipe either a bottom performer needs to be removed or a top performer will leave. I would at least check their parses from other fights before asking them to step out.

    As a result we managed to push in to Phase 3 a full 15 seconds or so before third adds, which is amazing DPS for 24 people pulled out of LFG. And that was with the guy from Quel'Thalas on the floor from massacre.

    For pug difficulty I'm giving it 95 of 100. The order of the abilities always being the same does help, but that stop at 71-72%...that got us once because after I kicked a few raid dps went up so much we pushed it faster. And people that have AotC, that's worthless. Even people 10/10H on their main or people that were 9/10H two months ago...they still might not be able to hack it.

    The real issue is that the top performers have to be courted. Because it is so hard, if people think you're gonna get it it's amazing how late they'll stay up. If they think it's gonna fall apart, it falls apart fast. And everyone needs to have P3 experience because there's so many abilities and knockbacks and pull ins and soaks. (Took me ~50 wipes or so to get it all solo before leading my own.)

    I also managed to pug a guy that had the capability of reading off the dbm abilities 3 seconds before they went off. Usually I do that but having some help allowed me to play my toon and focus. I think it did help people stay outta massacre and chorus explosions though. And the tanks really have to know where Denathrius needs to be especially around the second ravage or the raid is going bye-bye.

    People also should be above 4k dps before the P1 stop to dps is called. IMO if the raid couldn't hit 70% easily by the second ravage it's gonna be way behind in P3. I also ran an extra healer, 2/6/16. All the healers parsed bad but wouldn't you know it, the tanks lived.


    The one thing, and heh it's pretty much the only thing, that is working in the favor of a pug...is that there are a lot of people out there that really want this kill because it's so difficult. And because not many pugs can manage the kill, if people think the group is going all the way they're gonna pile in.
    Last edited by garicasha; 2021-03-25 at 09:53 AM.
    17 hazed on the Golemagg "cinematic": https://i.imgur.com/nlZM3cj.jpg

  2. #222
    High Overlord
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    Sep 2011
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    Because most people dont really know what to do. Me included. I just soak and wing the placements of swirlies.
    I just get carried by my raw Op hps and slt om my shaman.
    No one notices when the healer has no clue
    Last edited by Scrubity; 2021-03-25 at 02:18 PM.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by GnomeEU View Post
    I always wondered why hand is a heroic only ability. Hits pretty hard for that.
    HoD is a normal ability, it is also present in normal and even in LFR difficulty. Maybe knowledge of the fight and its mechanics would make the fight much easier for all players.
    But it's even easier to just do what the raid leader calls for (move there, do this, dodge that) instead of just using the own brain.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    10% HP nerf is HUGE. If you can't run out of a small puddle every once in a while, it's not Ion's fault.

    "Don't stand in red shit" has been a core game mechanic since this game existed, long before Ion started working on it. Only this time *you* get punished instead of the healer. It's time to learn to move out of the fire.

    This nerf is only irrelevant if your raid constantly dies to (completely avoidable) 1-shot mechanics.
    people have generaly no problem runing out of small puggles - what people do have problem with is runing out of small puddles when they are surrounded by huge red lines of instant deaths.

    how this boss should work is that if massacre started then crescendo cannot start untill massacre ended. or if crescendo started then messacre cannot start.

    its the same problems with overlaps of mechanics as on multiple bosses this tier.

    and it could be solved by literaly making 2 lines of code if done by devs who think about what they are designing.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    people have generaly no problem runing out of small puggles - what people do have problem with is runing out of small puddles when they are surrounded by huge red lines of instant deaths.

    how this boss should work is that if massacre started then crescendo cannot start untill massacre ended. or if crescendo started then messacre cannot start.

    its the same problems with overlaps of mechanics as on multiple bosses this tier.

    and it could be solved by literaly making 2 lines of code if done by devs who think about what they are designing.
    If you overlap Crescendo with Massacre it's your own fault. The raid can control when Crescendo is going to happen.
    So why should the game fix your own badness?

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    My theory is, it all comes down to when DPS have responsibilities, group wipes are more likely..

    (Just measuring as EASY or HARD based on dps responsibilities. Dont read into which ones are harder or not).

    Shriekwing - EASY
    - No one person is important, tanks just need basic positioning. Sure single people can drop stuff in bad places but overall, one person cant wipe the raid. Everyones main job is to avoid the things. You can just copy everyone.
    Huntsman - HARD
    - Bit more complicated, and most groups fail at the shades. The Arrows are easy enough to avoid, not standing in the giant circle is easy, its when shades need to be CCed, a responsibility usually assigned to a dps, in my experience a healer has never messed it up, but if CC breaks its cauuse some dps did the wrong thing and wiped the group.
    Hungering Destroyer - EASY
    - Pretty easy. Everyone has the same job. Avoid the things, run out, run back in. you can just copy everyone else.
    Inverva - HARD
    - Getting a bit harder. Manging the containers is usually a dps job, when a healer is assigned to it, ive never seen it fail. Soaking is usually ok, but if a soak isnt done it very likely a dps was close by and didnt move. Moving in with the Anima - easy enough, but you cant copy anyone else, your job is your own, dps sometimes freak out and dont run it in, or dont overcome their roots. The Orbs, you cannot copy anyone, you have a specific task, many screw it up - focusing on dps.
    Sun King - EASY

    - DPS does what it does best. Kill things. Easy fight
    Artificer - HARD
    - DPS usually are the ones running seeds. Also the 3rd phase, you make a mistake you die, you cant just copy everyone
    Council - EASY
    - Overall, dps copies everyone else. The few times where you need to think for yourself (dance partner) is the time when most would screw it up.
    Slude - HARD
    - Actually an easy fight. But it requires the dps to work together, at least in movement. 90% of wipes are because someone didnt copy everyone else.
    Generals - HARD
    - Easy if you move. But movement requires you to do your own thing and not copy everyone. Moving with blades, you alone are responsible. Stacking on for crystal if your bleeding - cant see anyone doing it so you dont either. Soaking eruptions, you do it alone.
    Sire - HARD
    - P1 requires dps to soak in order. Overall an easy phase. This is 1 thing dps need to do.
    - P2 requires dps to handle multiple things potentially all at once. Killing adds, while avoiding piles of sludge and swords. Multitasking makes it hard.
    - P3 shouldnt be hard, but its made hard when dps dont work together. Stacking when needed, moving away when needed, etc.
    - Overall Sire is an easy fight. Its made hard just because dps start to drop off.

    Overall, it seems simply that fight where DPS have responsibilities randomly assigned to them is where the wipes happpen.

    In fights where one person wont cause a wipe, most groups 1 shot.
    In fights where 1 mistake at the wrong time will wipe, its usually a dps that causes it.

    Is it that DPS players are bad?
    Or simply that Tanks and Healers have to learn everything, while dps for the most part can get away with basic knowledge and wing it - and when presented with things they cant just wing, fail.
    problem is always the same.

    if mechanics can be handled by some people not picked by game fights are easy

    if mechanics are completly random and suddenly "little timmy who performs a bit worse" dies / kills others its causing wipes.

    blizzard just realised that unless they enforce mechanics on random people then encounters are "to easy " for raiders. so they started that and this tier its going to ridiculous lenghts

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FiveDkp View Post
    You know what is game changing - taking 0 adds to Phase 3 due to HP nerfs on Sire
    never seen problems with adds because they literaly melt down when done by group which has atm most likely 218-220 itlv on average from GV . especially that if needed help i could ignore boss and jump on range adds as DH. but never needed to do that.

    i have seen insane amount of wipes due to one shots of mechanic overlaps.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Keashaa View Post
    If you overlap Crescendo with Massacre it's your own fault. The raid can control when Crescendo is going to happen.
    So why should the game fix your own badness?
    Only super disciplined groups would control this. Mythic-raiding level. Heroic-only guilds will never bother. Let alone pugs that are afraid they might get kicked for lower dps. Unless the people there are above heroic level skill-wise.
    And since this thread is about Ahead of the Curve...

    Either way, with the nerfs to Denathrius' health, I don't think there's a lot of issues now. Maybe.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    how this boss should work is that if massacre started then crescendo cannot start untill massacre ended. or if crescendo started then messacre cannot start.

    its the same problems with overlaps of mechanics as on multiple bosses this tier.
    Or you can have your dps actually play the game and kill the adds properly to not make this overlap happen if they are too pepega to deal with it, you cant just nerf an imaginary overlap that happens on the raid's own fault, a real overlap is what happens on Mythic Sire, an overlap that cant be avoided, not the made up overlap you mention on heroic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Only super disciplined groups would control this. Mythic-raiding level.
    Mythic raiders just move out of crescendo and massacre xd you just press wasd, cba to control adds dps when its a non issue.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    problem is always the same.

    if mechanics can be handled by some people not picked by game fights are easy
    Bang - This Guy/Gal gets it. "RNG" with abilities is a pugs nightmare - being able to rely on 3-4 players who know the mechanic and are good at it makes many things trivial. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Bang - This Guy/Gal gets it. "RNG" with abilities is a pugs nightmare - being able to rely on 3-4 players who know the mechanic and are good at it makes many things trivial. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.
    Except what he mentions isnt rng, its an overlap caused by his own raid, rng timers and mechanics was what happened (and still happens tbh) on Mythic Stone Legion Generals, but Heroic Sire? its all timed, even Mythic Sire is all timed.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    Is it that DPS players are bad?
    Or simply that Tanks and Healers have to learn everything, while dps for the most part can get away with basic knowledge and wing it - and when presented with things they cant just wing, fail.
    Both. Sort of.
    In general - bad players play dps, not that dps are bad. There are amazing dpses out there who deal with mechanics and dish a lot of damage.
    But the worst of the worst will usually be dps - people who cannot for their life do much - interrupt, dps while moving, avoid more than one mechanic, SEE what is going on (the number of people in my group who say they don't see lines at Denathrius in phase 1 is astonishing...). I general, they have very poor awareness.
    In general, you won't stand for a tank that is super slow and doesn't understand what to do because it will frustrate everyone, while a bad dps you will just carry through, let die and hope for the best (as in hope he won't kill off the actual dpses who are carrying him). A bad tank can be carried only in rare circumstances - if the group is super awesome and content super overgeared and / or if the main tank can easily guilde the offtank (tell when to taunt, where to move, what to do).
    A bad healer can also be carried by the other healers, though most dps mistakes are covered by healers in general anyway so your healers as a group need to be pretty good if the rest of the raid is bad.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Except what he mentions isnt rng, its an overlap caused by his own raid, rng timers and mechanics was what happened (and still happens tbh) on Mythic Stone Legion Generals, but Heroic Sire? its all timed, even Mythic Sire is all timed.
    You need to look at what i quoted. It was very specific what i quoted, and what i responded to.

    What responded to was the difference between "someone of your choosing needs to go click 3 orbs in the correct order" VS "someone will be randomly chosen, and they are required to click on 3 orbs in order".
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You need to look at what i quoted. It was very specific what i quoted, and what i responded to.

    What responded to was the difference between "someone of your choosing needs to go click 3 orbs in the correct order" VS "someone will be randomly chosen, and they are required to click on 3 orbs in order".
    There should be some kind of balance tbh, you dont want RNG targeted mechanics being overused, but you dont want "Xanesh" type encounters on a 24/7 basis either, where theres literally 0 personal responsability.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    Only super disciplined groups would control this. Mythic-raiding level. Heroic-only guilds will never bother. Let alone pugs that are afraid they might get kicked for lower dps. Unless the people there are above heroic level skill-wise.
    And since this thread is about Ahead of the Curve...

    Either way, with the nerfs to Denathrius' health, I don't think there's a lot of issues now. Maybe.
    There's not a lot of discipline required. Melee kill both adds. Ranged only focus left add then help melee. Wait for hand/massacre. Kill right ranged add.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    My theory is, it all comes down to when DPS have responsibilities, group wipes are more likely..

    (Just measuring as EASY or HARD based on dps responsibilities. Dont read into which ones are harder or not).

    Shriekwing - EASY
    - No one person is important, tanks just need basic positioning. Sure single people can drop stuff in bad places but overall, one person cant wipe the raid. Everyones main job is to avoid the things. You can just copy everyone.
    Huntsman - HARD
    - Bit more complicated, and most groups fail at the shades. The Arrows are easy enough to avoid, not standing in the giant circle is easy, its when shades need to be CCed, a responsibility usually assigned to a dps, in my experience a healer has never messed it up, but if CC breaks its cauuse some dps did the wrong thing and wiped the group.
    Hungering Destroyer - EASY
    - Pretty easy. Everyone has the same job. Avoid the things, run out, run back in. you can just copy everyone else.
    Inverva - HARD
    - Getting a bit harder. Manging the containers is usually a dps job, when a healer is assigned to it, ive never seen it fail. Soaking is usually ok, but if a soak isnt done it very likely a dps was close by and didnt move. Moving in with the Anima - easy enough, but you cant copy anyone else, your job is your own, dps sometimes freak out and dont run it in, or dont overcome their roots. The Orbs, you cannot copy anyone, you have a specific task, many screw it up - focusing on dps.
    Sun King - EASY

    - DPS does what it does best. Kill things. Easy fight
    Artificer - HARD
    - DPS usually are the ones running seeds. Also the 3rd phase, you make a mistake you die, you cant just copy everyone
    Council - EASY
    - Overall, dps copies everyone else. The few times where you need to think for yourself (dance partner) is the time when most would screw it up.
    Slude - HARD
    - Actually an easy fight. But it requires the dps to work together, at least in movement. 90% of wipes are because someone didnt copy everyone else.
    Generals - HARD
    - Easy if you move. But movement requires you to do your own thing and not copy everyone. Moving with blades, you alone are responsible. Stacking on for crystal if your bleeding - cant see anyone doing it so you dont either. Soaking eruptions, you do it alone.
    Sire - HARD
    - P1 requires dps to soak in order. Overall an easy phase. This is 1 thing dps need to do.
    - P2 requires dps to handle multiple things potentially all at once. Killing adds, while avoiding piles of sludge and swords. Multitasking makes it hard.
    - P3 shouldnt be hard, but its made hard when dps dont work together. Stacking when needed, moving away when needed, etc.
    - Overall Sire is an easy fight. Its made hard just because dps start to drop off.

    Overall, it seems simply that fight where DPS have responsibilities randomly assigned to them is where the wipes happpen.

    In fights where one person wont cause a wipe, most groups 1 shot.
    In fights where 1 mistake at the wrong time will wipe, its usually a dps that causes it.

    Is it that DPS players are bad?
    Or simply that Tanks and Healers have to learn everything, while dps for the most part can get away with basic knowledge and wing it - and when presented with things they cant just wing, fail.
    Complete and utter drivel. I've pugged HC nathria as a healer without really knowing how to play the spec, it's much easier than dps for most fights. You have some sort of chip on your shoulder about dps players, I won't guess at the kind of psychological problem you have, but the fact of the matter is that healers only have a hard time if a group is really bad and takes loads of avoidable damage. If a group is competent than healers have it easiest, they only need enough HPS to keep people alive there isn't the same performance scrutiny as there is on DPS.

    As for tanks, they generally deal with completely different mechanics to the rest of the raid so its apples and oranges. They have their own problems to deal with on a fight but equally they get to stand still doing a basic rotation for 90% of the fight without worrying about many mechanics.

    And I had to laugh at you putting huntsman as "hard" there's nothing to that fight.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    Complete and utter drivel. I've pugged HC nathria as a healer without really knowing how to play the spec, it's much easier than dps for most fights. You have some sort of chip on your shoulder about dps players, I won't guess at the kind of psychological problem you have, but the fact of the matter is that healers only have a hard time if a group is really bad and takes loads of avoidable damage. If a group is competent than healers have it easiest, they only need enough HPS to keep people alive there isn't the same performance scrutiny as there is on DPS.

    As for tanks, they generally deal with completely different mechanics to the rest of the raid so its apples and oranges. They have their own problems to deal with on a fight but equally they get to stand still doing a basic rotation for 90% of the fight without worrying about many mechanics.

    And I had to laugh at you putting huntsman as "hard" there's nothing to that fight.
    Might help if you read more than just the bolded words bud. You litteraly skipped over everything else.

  17. #237
    On most encounters there's no difference mechanics-wise between dps and healer. On Inerva healers can't get beams, other than that all the mechanics/movements are basically the same for healers and dps.

    How "hard" the raid (on HC) is for healers, depends entirely on your ilvl and how well dps/tanks are playing and using their cooldowns. I've seen pugs that were unhealable in fights like council (low dps = high stacks each phase), generals (just a clusterfuck if people don't play mechanics correctly) or destroyer (stacking multiple orbs inside each other), and I've seen groups that require next to no healing.

    So you both are kinda right

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    if mechanics are completly random and suddenly "little timmy who performs a bit worse" dies / kills others its causing wipes.
    It's not just "little timmy who plays a bit worse" it's sometimes "little timmy who hasn't ever had to be part of that mechanic in the 12 previous pulls and has no experience with orbs and beams" or "Little timmy who is in a burst phase and whose mind was on maximizing DPS at the moment they were picked to drop the death pool on the side of the room".

    In the dozens of pulls of H Stone Legion I have been picked exactly once for Grashaal's ground puddles. I dropped it in the wrong place because I had a moment of not paying attention. Stupid me, I know, but RNG is RNG and some folks get targeted a lot and learn what to do when targeted. When you're not targeted enough that muscle memory isn't there.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    problem is always the same.

    if mechanics can be handled by some people not picked by game fights are easy

    if mechanics are completly random and suddenly "little timmy who performs a bit worse" dies / kills others its causing wipes.

    blizzard just realised that unless they enforce mechanics on random people then encounters are "to easy " for raiders. so they started that and this tier its going to ridiculous lenghts

    - - - Updated - - -



    never seen problems with adds because they literaly melt down when done by group which has atm most likely 218-220 itlv on average from GV . especially that if needed help i could ignore boss and jump on range adds as DH. but never needed to do that.

    i have seen insane amount of wipes due to one shots of mechanic overlaps.
    Then don't kill adds before Massacre or Hand? :S

    The bit you don't seem to understand is that having all the adds dead going into P3 makes it a lot easier for a lot of groups to handle the first Hand + finesse (the first mechanic overlap in p3).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    people have generaly no problem runing out of small puggles - what people do have problem with is runing out of small puddles when they are surrounded by huge red lines of instant deaths.

    how this boss should work is that if massacre started then crescendo cannot start untill massacre ended. or if crescendo started then messacre cannot start.

    its the same problems with overlaps of mechanics as on multiple bosses this tier.

    and it could be solved by literaly making 2 lines of code if done by devs who think about what they are designing.
    Jesus Christ......

    You're showing your full non-experience of these bosses on display - if you're dying to P1-P2 mechanics - have fun in p3.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by FiveDkp View Post
    [...]
    Now you're being elitist and toxic

    /s

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