Why is Sire so hard even for "AOTC" groups?

[GnomeEU]

Sire is one of the easier bosses in the raid.
Every single ability is on a fixed timer, there are no surprises in that fight.
The only thing that might kill you is hand of destruction together with soaking. If your heals don't top your group fast you might die there.
But hand has been nerfed. Even our casual guild killed him first try this week.
Shouldn't be a problem anymore for pugs.

I always wondered why hand is a heroic only ability. Hits pretty hard for that.

[Semihagez]

Sire is one of the easier bosses in the raid.
Every single ability is on a fixed timer, there are no surprises in that fight.
The only thing that might kill you is hand of destruction together with soaking. If your heals don't top your group fast you might die there.
But hand has been nerfed. Even our casual guild killed him first try this week.
Shouldn't be a problem anymore for pugs.

I always wondered why hand is a heroic only ability. Hits pretty hard for that.

The most common death happens in P2 and usually due to HoD happens right around when add dies so you get knocked back as you get vacuumed in. Then it's melee die to massacre because they want to stay DPSing and ends up getting trapped in a corner and dies (or get trapped in knockback).

Once you get to P3 it's not too bad if everyone knows where to place the orb.

It's really just a lot of insta death stuff (much like Sludgefist) and there isn't much healer can do.

[Argorwal]

It’s not better design. By the end of last expansion, healing heroic nyalotha just felt really stupid. You could do like 4x the healing needed but you couldn’t do anything to stop wipes. It’s as you said - as they add more and more gear inflation, they have to add in more punishing mechanics because gear makes everything trivial. It’s kind of a cat chasing its own tail - lets give you more power but make that power irrelevant (which leads to the question - is it even power then?)

The last time I remember feeling like I could carry as a healer was Dragon Soul - fights like Ultraxion, and even Madness on last platform. I’m sure it existed to some extent in expansions after that but it’s been gone for a while now.

The huge gain of healers gearing and carrying has always been the ability to drop a healer for a dps.

Which makes the encounter easier and faster.

Many guilds were 1-2 healing heroic Ny’alotha by the end, and fights ended fast and become easier. Like never even needing to see a mind control ever on Ilgy because you phase him so fast.

[garicasha]

I spent six hours learning it in a pug last Sunday and it’s not a trivial fight. It actually worked well because the five minutes between pulls to swap pugs let me review the video from each pull.

There is SO much movement in P3. The raid is getting bumped around as frequently as every ten seconds. Hell I’ve seen porn with less in and out

[kamuimac]

the mechanics are fine for and endboss. it's just cause he drops higher ilvl gear/is tuned for higher ilvl that you can't outgear the fight as easily as you can earlier heroic bosses.

dont worry Ion is alread on stone generals so soon huge nerfs to denathrius both hc and mythic will come once game director will be wiping on last boss

[neescher]

dont worry Ion is alread on stone generals so soon huge nerfs to denathrius both hc and mythic will come once game director will be wiping on last boss

What are you talking about, there were already 2 huge nerfs to Denathrius.

But I forgot, you think that 10% hp nerfs "will do nothing", and "Ion is out to get us" and "90% of players left for FF anyway"...

[kamuimac]

What are you talking about, there were already 2 huge nerfs to Denathrius.

But I forgot, you think that 10% hp nerfs "will do nothing", and "Ion is out to get us" and "90% of players left for FF anyway"...

because it literaly did nothing to casual guild i raid with . people are still dying to crescendo-mixed with massacre in p2 and to mechanics in p3 . and nerf had literaly 0 impact on how we progress boss.

huge nerf in my eyes is what they did to slugefist. those are real game changing mechanics -which lets you for example not break chains when you run around puddles on different sides and let you run out of boss in time without problem without breaking chains .

those are real nerfs.

[neescher]

because it literaly did nothing to casual guild i raid with . people are still dying to crescendo-mixed with massacre in p2 and to mechanics in p3 . and nerf had literaly 0 impact on how we progress boss.

huge nerf in my eyes is what they did to slugefist. those are real game changing mechanics -which lets you for example not break chains when you run around puddles on different sides and let you run out of boss in time without problem without breaking chains .

those are real nerfs.

10% HP nerf is HUGE. If you can't run out of a small puddle every once in a while, it's not Ion's fault.

"Don't stand in red shit" has been a core game mechanic since this game existed, long before Ion started working on it. Only this time *you* get punished instead of the healer. It's time to learn to move out of the fire.

This nerf is only irrelevant if your raid constantly dies to (completely avoidable) 1-shot mechanics.

[Wangming]

What are you talking about, there were already 2 huge nerfs to Denathrius.

But I forgot, you think that 10% hp nerfs "will do nothing", and "Ion is out to get us" and "90% of players left for FF anyway"...

They will come back after they reach the Coil The only really good raid in the game.

[Hellobolis]

10% HP nerf is HUGE. If you can't run out of a small puddle every once in a while, it's not Ion's fault.

"Don't stand in red shit" has been a core game mechanic since this game existed, long before Ion started working on it. Only this time *you* get punished instead of the healer. It's time to learn to move out of the fire.

This nerf is only irrelevant if your raid constantly dies to (completely avoidable) 1-shot mechanics.

more like "if your buddy fucks up you get punished" in this case. 10% hp nerf is certainly huge, but not losing 10% dps because people die to mechanics is much more in the spirit of todays nerfing style.

i'm pretty surprised there is no 5% hp nerf on mythic though, cause even with no mistakes it's a pretty tight dps check for guilds that haven't killed it yet.

also doubt ion will nerf mythic denatrius, he is a lot easier than generals after all.

[neescher]

more like "if your buddy fucks up you get punished" in this case. 10% hp nerf is certainly huge, but not losing 10% dps because people die to mechanics is much more in the spirit of todays nerfing style.

i'm pretty surprised there is no 5% hp nerf on mythic though, cause even with no mistakes it's a pretty tight dps check for guilds that haven't killed it yet.

also doubt ion will nerf mythic denatrius, he is a lot easier than generals after all.

"if your buddy fucks up you get punished" - we're talking about Denathrius, right? Sounds more like you're talking about Sludgefist, where you can literally die for other people's mistakes.

If you fuck up in the Denathrius fight, you're the only one that dies. You don't take anyone else with you. Of course if too many people fail mechanics and die, you lack the dps/healing required to kill Denathrius, but I would argue that in that case the guild/group just doesn't deserve the kill.

[intenz]

HC sire is harder than the first few mythic bosses. Most guilds who do it end up carrying members and of course a lot of people buy boosts. Pugging anything from HC sludgefist onwards is an absolute nightmare, common to see people doing 3k dps and not knowing mechanics.

[Hellobolis]

Of course if too many people fail mechanics and die, you lack the dps/healing required to kill Denathrius, but I would argue that in that case the guild/group just doesn't deserve the kill.

but that's the entire point of targeted nerfs over time, to make sure nobody gets stuck on a boss too long (and quits because of it). gear is already a dps/healing increase over time, but were past the halfway point of the patch so most people have plateaued on gear, at which point i think a nerf to the most lethal mechanics is more elegant than just slapping a blanket 10% nerf on the entire fight. but it's going to be nerfed either way in the current design philosophy.

[Squigglyo]

My theory is, it all comes down to when DPS have responsibilities, group wipes are more likely..

(Just measuring as EASY or HARD based on dps responsibilities. Dont read into which ones are harder or not).

Shriekwing - EASY
- No one person is important, tanks just need basic positioning. Sure single people can drop stuff in bad places but overall, one person cant wipe the raid. Everyones main job is to avoid the things. You can just copy everyone.
Huntsman - HARD
- Bit more complicated, and most groups fail at the shades. The Arrows are easy enough to avoid, not standing in the giant circle is easy, its when shades need to be CCed, a responsibility usually assigned to a dps, in my experience a healer has never messed it up, but if CC breaks its cauuse some dps did the wrong thing and wiped the group.
Hungering Destroyer - EASY
- Pretty easy. Everyone has the same job. Avoid the things, run out, run back in. you can just copy everyone else.
Inverva - HARD
- Getting a bit harder. Manging the containers is usually a dps job, when a healer is assigned to it, ive never seen it fail. Soaking is usually ok, but if a soak isnt done it very likely a dps was close by and didnt move. Moving in with the Anima - easy enough, but you cant copy anyone else, your job is your own, dps sometimes freak out and dont run it in, or dont overcome their roots. The Orbs, you cannot copy anyone, you have a specific task, many screw it up - focusing on dps.
Sun King - EASY
- DPS does what it does best. Kill things. Easy fight
Artificer - HARD
- DPS usually are the ones running seeds. Also the 3rd phase, you make a mistake you die, you cant just copy everyone
Council - EASY
- Overall, dps copies everyone else. The few times where you need to think for yourself (dance partner) is the time when most would screw it up.
Slude - HARD
- Actually an easy fight. But it requires the dps to work together, at least in movement. 90% of wipes are because someone didnt copy everyone else.
Generals - HARD
- Easy if you move. But movement requires you to do your own thing and not copy everyone. Moving with blades, you alone are responsible. Stacking on for crystal if your bleeding - cant see anyone doing it so you dont either. Soaking eruptions, you do it alone.
Sire - HARD
- P1 requires dps to soak in order. Overall an easy phase. This is 1 thing dps need to do.
- P2 requires dps to handle multiple things potentially all at once. Killing adds, while avoiding piles of sludge and swords. Multitasking makes it hard.
- P3 shouldnt be hard, but its made hard when dps dont work together. Stacking when needed, moving away when needed, etc.
- Overall Sire is an easy fight. Its made hard just because dps start to drop off.

Overall, it seems simply that fight where DPS have responsibilities randomly assigned to them is where the wipes happpen.

In fights where one person wont cause a wipe, most groups 1 shot.
In fights where 1 mistake at the wrong time will wipe, its usually a dps that causes it.

Is it that DPS players are bad?
Or simply that Tanks and Healers have to learn everything, while dps for the most part can get away with basic knowledge and wing it - and when presented with things they cant just wing, fail.

[FiveDkp]

because it literaly did nothing to casual guild i raid with . people are still dying to crescendo-mixed with massacre in p2 and to mechanics in p3 . and nerf had literaly 0 impact on how we progress boss.

huge nerf in my eyes is what they did to slugefist. those are real game changing mechanics -which lets you for example not break chains when you run around puddles on different sides and let you run out of boss in time without problem without breaking chains .

those are real nerfs.

You know what is game changing - taking 0 adds to Phase 3 due to HP nerfs on Sire

[garicasha]

I accomplished raid leading a kill tonight, but boy was it rough!!! I did SLG first and a combined 60 people wound up being present for one pull of either boss. Yet only 24 where in the kill, so my methods of screening people (raider.io mostly) were NOT good.

Tonight was my first night raid leading it, although I'd been to the enrage before as a follower. I offered up a bit of gold to pugs, and 2-3 people came from the previous night's run, but 21 of the 24 people in the run came out of LFG.

I generally try to run politely and calmly but I had to kick so many people that weren't prepared. It was bad. A few that were parsing ok but not great I also removed, although they were pretty salty and I can't blame 'em. I felt bad but this fight when you've got a group ready for the kill...after each wipe either a bottom performer needs to be removed or a top performer will leave. I would at least check their parses from other fights before asking them to step out.

As a result we managed to push in to Phase 3 a full 15 seconds or so before third adds, which is amazing DPS for 24 people pulled out of LFG. And that was with the guy from Quel'Thalas on the floor from massacre.

For pug difficulty I'm giving it 95 of 100. The order of the abilities always being the same does help, but that stop at 71-72%...that got us once because after I kicked a few raid dps went up so much we pushed it faster. And people that have AotC, that's worthless. Even people 10/10H on their main or people that were 9/10H two months ago...they still might not be able to hack it.

The real issue is that the top performers have to be courted. Because it is so hard, if people think you're gonna get it it's amazing how late they'll stay up. If they think it's gonna fall apart, it falls apart fast. And everyone needs to have P3 experience because there's so many abilities and knockbacks and pull ins and soaks. (Took me ~50 wipes or so to get it all solo before leading my own.)

I also managed to pug a guy that had the capability of reading off the dbm abilities 3 seconds before they went off. Usually I do that but having some help allowed me to play my toon and focus. I think it did help people stay outta massacre and chorus explosions though. And the tanks really have to know where Denathrius needs to be especially around the second ravage or the raid is going bye-bye.

People also should be above 4k dps before the P1 stop to dps is called. IMO if the raid couldn't hit 70% easily by the second ravage it's gonna be way behind in P3. I also ran an extra healer, 2/6/16. All the healers parsed bad but wouldn't you know it, the tanks lived.


The one thing, and heh it's pretty much the only thing, that is working in the favor of a pug...is that there are a lot of people out there that really want this kill because it's so difficult. And because not many pugs can manage the kill, if people think the group is going all the way they're gonna pile in.

[Scrubity]

Because most people dont really know what to do. Me included. I just soak and wing the placements of swirlies.
I just get carried by my raw Op hps and slt om my shaman.
No one notices when the healer has no clue

[Keashaa]

I always wondered why hand is a heroic only ability. Hits pretty hard for that.

HoD is a normal ability, it is also present in normal and even in LFR difficulty. Maybe knowledge of the fight and its mechanics would make the fight much easier for all players.
But it's even easier to just do what the raid leader calls for (move there, do this, dodge that) instead of just using the own brain.

[kamuimac]

10% HP nerf is HUGE. If you can't run out of a small puddle every once in a while, it's not Ion's fault.

"Don't stand in red shit" has been a core game mechanic since this game existed, long before Ion started working on it. Only this time *you* get punished instead of the healer. It's time to learn to move out of the fire.

This nerf is only irrelevant if your raid constantly dies to (completely avoidable) 1-shot mechanics.

people have generaly no problem runing out of small puggles - what people do have problem with is runing out of small puddles when they are surrounded by huge red lines of instant deaths.

how this boss should work is that if massacre started then crescendo cannot start untill massacre ended. or if crescendo started then messacre cannot start.

its the same problems with overlaps of mechanics as on multiple bosses this tier.

and it could be solved by literaly making 2 lines of code if done by devs who think about what they are designing.

[Keashaa]

people have generaly no problem runing out of small puggles - what people do have problem with is runing out of small puddles when they are surrounded by huge red lines of instant deaths.

how this boss should work is that if massacre started then crescendo cannot start untill massacre ended. or if crescendo started then messacre cannot start.

its the same problems with overlaps of mechanics as on multiple bosses this tier.

and it could be solved by literaly making 2 lines of code if done by devs who think about what they are designing.

If you overlap Crescendo with Massacre it's your own fault. The raid can control when Crescendo is going to happen.
So why should the game fix your own badness?