Mistake in chronicle 3

[darkoms]

Hard to really impress me with shit such as Artifacts when the Great Vault and relics of the First Ones are legit being activated by you, and are straight up inviting you to use them.

Yes, because you have the Heart of Azeroth.

[TheFirstOnes]

in 7.3 we will not surpass the the eredar lords. If you are talking about the battle with KJ, then we needed the help of Illidan, Velen and Khadgar.
What is such a low level of Titans? Avatar of the Titans? A Titan Keeper? The low level of Titans means that it is just a Titan, but a weaker than a high level Titan(Sargeras and Azeroth), but even weak Titan is still a being of a divine level and is capable of destroying planets. We are clearly not at this level. If you think Titan spirit = Titan's low level, then you don't understand how it works.
Argus was something like a super-avatar, he was not a full-fledged Titan because he was not fully born, he was forcibly forced to take this form and fight. We killed Argus while he was still in a vulnerable state, a state of the world soul.

An Avatar is more of a husk. What we faced was a Fetus.

Also, regarding this line: "but even weak Titan is still a being of a divine level and is capable of destroying planets" Idk about weakened Titans, but regular Titans yes. Even when Argus was a fetus and his natural power was pretty pathetic, he still has hax and magical potencies that gave him very powerful abilities, such as the End of All Things. Also, some of the Artifacts lore-wise are pretty tough and are arguably Planetary baselined, such as the Maw of the Damned.

And no, I am not talking about the Avatar of Aggramar. The Avatar of Aggramar is probably comparable to the Avatar of Sargeras. Nothing really too crazy tbh.

"If you are talking about the battle with KJ, then we needed the help of Illidan, Velen and Khadgar." Illidan and Velen were fighting the Demons from interrupting our battle with Kil'jaeden, and the most help Illidan actually did for us in the fight was grant us the sight needed to stop his shadow fiends, tho you're right in that it was help. Khadgar was also facing off the demons on KJ's ship too, but he was on the opposite side of the ship.

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Yes, because you have the Heart of Azeroth.

Steve Danuser said we actually have no idea still why the First Ones' relics are being activated, especially since the Heart of Azeroth is confirmed useless by the time we enter the Maw. There's no mention of the necklace whatsoever either throughout the expansion.

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"They react to us for reasons we've yet to uncover"

10:40

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I do wanna know more of these First Ones, though.

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Imagine being part of a Cosmic Pantheon, and you see like 25 random ass mortal dudes outside your Castle door.

[darkoms]

An Avatar is more of a husk. What we faced was a Fetus.

Also, regarding this line: "but even weak Titan is still a being of a divine level and is capable of destroying planets" Idk about weakened Titans, but regular Titans yes. Even when Argus was a fetus and his natural power was pretty pathetic, he still has hax and magical potencies that gave him very powerful abilities, such as the End of All Things. Also, some of the Artifacts lore-wise are pretty tough and are arguably Planetary baselined, such as the Maw of the Damned.

And no, I am not talking about the Avatar of Aggramar. The Avatar of Aggramar is probably comparable to the Avatar of Sargeras. Nothing really too crazy tbh.

"If you are talking about the battle with KJ, then we needed the help of Illidan, Velen and Khadgar." Illidan and Velen were fighting the Demons from interrupting our battle with Kil'jaeden, and the most help Illidan actually did for us in the fight was grant us the sight needed to stop his shadow fiends, tho you're right in that it was help. Khadgar was also facing off the demons on KJ's ship too, but he was on the opposite side of the ship.

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Steve Danuser said we actually have no idea still why the First Ones' relics are being activated, especially since the Heart of Azeroth is confirmed useless by the time we enter the Maw. There's no mention of the necklace whatsoever either throughout the expansion.

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"They react to us for reasons we've yet to uncover"

10:40

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I do wanna know more of these First Ones, though.

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Imagine being part of a Cosmic Pantheon, and you see like 25 random ass mortal dudes outside your Castle door.

Yes, I know, I said something like a super avatar.

The Weakened Titan is not the same as the Avatar of the Titan. And Argus wasn't exactly a weakened Titan, because weakening implies that something weakened him. Argus, on the other hand, never reached full power to be weakened.
Archimonde knows how to blow up planets, but was unable to break through Elune's shield. So even the Scepter of Sargeras or Maw of the Damned is hardly stronger than the Ax.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean when you say low Titans because we seem to understand it differently.

This is game mechanics. Yrel, Khadgar and Grommash also practically do not help in the battle with Archimonde (except for Yrel, she destroys the fel spiers), but it was with their help that we won, and the video also shows that there was also an army of draenei and orcs. And in the video after defeating KJ, we see that Velen, Khadgar and Illidan are standing next to him, and not with mountains of demon corpses somewhere in the distance.

Steve Danuser is an idiot who is trying to come up with something new, but all he has to offer us is just ''cooler'' things that are already in the lore
1) First Ones-mega Titans
2) Maldraxus-Mega Scourge
3)Jailer -mega Lich King

But excuse me, I got carried away. I just wanted to say that
Thanks to their intimate connection to Azeroth's world-soul, adventurers are able to escape the Maw and further explore the Shadowlands, though some of their allies were left behind. [1]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q67Upjq7H8

[TheFirstOnes]

Yes, I know, I said something like a super avatar.

The Weakened Titan is not the same as the Avatar of the Titan. And Argus wasn't exactly a weakened Titan, because weakening implies that something weakened him. Argus, on the other hand, never reached full power to be weakened.
Archimonde knows how to blow up planets, but was unable to break through Elune's shield. So even the Scepter of Sargeras or Maw of the Damned is hardly stronger than the Ax.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean when you say low Titans because we seem to understand it differently.

This is game mechanics. Yrel, Khadgar and Grommash also practically do not help in the battle with Archimonde (except for Yrel, she destroys the fel spiers), but it was with their help that we won, and the video also shows that there was also an army of draenei and orcs. And in the video after defeating KJ, we see that Velen, Khadgar and Illidan are standing next to him, and not with mountains of demon corpses somewhere in the distance.

Steve Danuser is an idiot who is trying to come up with something new, but all he has to offer us is just ''cooler'' things that are already in the lore
1) First Ones-mega Titans
2) Maldraxus-Mega Scourge
3)Jailer -mega Lich King

But excuse me, I got carried away. I just wanted to say that
Thanks to their intimate connection to Azeroth's world-soul, adventurers are able to escape the Maw and further explore the Shadowlands, though some of their allies were left behind. [1]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q67Upjq7H8

I was going to mention Blizzcon. Blizzard usually changes up the story they want to tell, so I wouldn't be shocked if the Azeroth thing isn't the case anymore. I'm sure someone would've mentioned it during Blizzcon. Doesn't help that we basically replace the Heart, and yet we're still capable of activating these relics. That is, unless Azeroth's soul is just empowering us naturally. My assumption is that we're basically avatars of the First Ones themselves, or we're chosen by the First Ones to carry out their unyielding rule.

Sorry if the quote thing is annoying btw.

"Argus, on the other hand, never reached full power to be weakened." He was still being used as fuel for the Legion's resurrection stuff, and was being tortured for eternity. I'd say that made him rather weakened. He doesn't HAVE to be at FP originally, ya know?

"Archimonde knows how to blow up planets, but was unable to break through Elune's shield. So even the Scepter of Sargeras or Maw of the Damned is hardly stronger than the Ax." True. Tho, my argument was moreso of the idea that Titans alone aren't the only things that could destroy worlds and shit. I'd argue they moreso are living manifestations of reality itself, and are extensions of the Physical Universe spawned from the realm of Order. That's a great way of explaining their power.

"This is game mechanics. Yrel, Khadgar and Grommash also practically do not help in the battle with Archimonde (except for Yrel, she destroys the fel spiers), but it was with their help that we won, and the video also shows that there was also an army of draenei and orcs. And in the video after defeating KJ, we see that Velen, Khadgar and Illidan are standing next to him, and not with mountains of demon corpses somewhere in the distance."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Yrel, Khadgar, and Grom also aid us in battling Archimonde himself? I'm pretty certain they did. Either way, you're right in that we don't see Demonic corpses at KJ's ship. Idk why. They likely either evaporated, or fell off the ship. They still should've popped in lore wise, even if you wanted to argue that Illidan and Velen actually helped in taking KJ himself with us.


"Steve Danuser is an idiot who is trying to come up with something new, but all he has to offer us is just cooler things that are already in the lore
1) First Ones-mega Titans
2) Maldraxus-Mega Scourge
3)Jailer -mega Lich King"

I wouldn't really say the First Ones are like mega-Titans at all. My assumption (Tho, this is an assumption) is that they're the guys that basically made everything. Doubt they merely ordered shit. They are apparently the artifacts of the Cosmic framework we're used to, which implies they likely made the Cosmic Chart, which consists of the 6 Influences and their respective Pantheon.

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"I'm trying to figure out what you mean when you say low Titans because we seem to understand it differently."

I mean someone like Argus.

[darkoms]

I was going to mention Blizzcon. Blizzard usually changes up the story they want to tell, so I wouldn't be shocked if the Azeroth thing isn't the case anymore. I'm sure someone would've mentioned it during Blizzcon. Doesn't help that we basically replace the Heart, and yet we're still capable of activating these relics. That is, unless Azeroth's soul is just empowering us naturally. My assumption is that we're basically avatars of the First Ones themselves, or we're chosen by the First Ones to carry out their unyielding rule.

Sorry if the quote thing is annoying btw.

"Argus, on the other hand, never reached full power to be weakened." He was still being used as fuel for the Legion's resurrection stuff, and was being tortured for eternity. I'd say that made him rather weakened. He doesn't HAVE to be at FP originally, ya know?

"Archimonde knows how to blow up planets, but was unable to break through Elune's shield. So even the Scepter of Sargeras or Maw of the Damned is hardly stronger than the Ax." True. Tho, my argument was moreso of the idea that Titans alone aren't the only things that could destroy worlds and shit. I'd argue they moreso are living manifestations of reality itself, and are extensions of the Physical Universe spawned from the realm of Order. That's a great way of explaining their power.

"This is game mechanics. Yrel, Khadgar and Grommash also practically do not help in the battle with Archimonde (except for Yrel, she destroys the fel spiers), but it was with their help that we won, and the video also shows that there was also an army of draenei and orcs. And in the video after defeating KJ, we see that Velen, Khadgar and Illidan are standing next to him, and not with mountains of demon corpses somewhere in the distance."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Yrel, Khadgar, and Grom also aid us in battling Archimonde himself? I'm pretty certain they did. Either way, you're right in that we don't see Demonic corpses at KJ's ship. Idk why. They likely either evaporated, or fell off the ship. They still should've popped in lore wise, even if you wanted to argue that Illidan and Velen actually helped in taking KJ himself with us.


"Steve Danuser is an idiot who is trying to come up with something new, but all he has to offer us is just cooler things that are already in the lore
1) First Ones-mega Titans
2) Maldraxus-Mega Scourge
3)Jailer -mega Lich King"

I wouldn't really say the First Ones are like mega-Titans at all. My assumption (Tho, this is an assumption) is that they're the guys that basically made everything. Doubt they merely ordered shit. They are apparently the artifacts of the Cosmic framework we're used to, which implies they likely made the Cosmic Chart, which consists of the 6 Influences and their respective Pantheon.

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"I'm trying to figure out what you mean when you say low Titans because we seem to understand it differently."

I mean someone like Argus.

I loved the idea that if the First Ones are tied to the Titans, the Heart of Azeroth can activate their relics.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Yes, so we are clearly not low-titan level.

They run alongside, but they do no damage and the only help we get is that Yrel is destroying the spiers of fel. As I said, this is a game mechanic.

I mean that they are some kind of divine beings and that we know very little about them and they ordered the universe (in the old lore, the Titans created worlds, not just ordered).

Well, we are not at the level of Argus, we needed the help of the Pantheon and even so he killed us.

[TheFirstOnes]

"Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Yes, so we are clearly not low-titan level." Not regularly, no. Us empowered by the Titans were, tho we still died. Even with the help, the battle came up a clutch.

"They run alongside, but they do no damage and the only help we get is that Yrel is destroying the spiers of fel. As I said, this is a game mechanic."

True. But, they still attacked. So hey, NPC's are cool.

"I loved the idea that if the First Ones are tied to the Titans, the Heart of Azeroth can activate their relics."

Well, the Cosmic Pantheons are tied to them, but yes. You're not really wrong here. It is a nice idea, and I wish Blizzard kept at this idea, but it may or may not be the case anymore.

"I mean that they are some kind of divine beings and that we know very little about them and they ordered the universe (in the old lore, the Titans created worlds, not just ordered)."

The First Ones did more than just order stuff. If they created the framework of the Cosmos and are the architects of all these things, etc. I would assume they were the ones that actually made the stuff to begin with, the Cosmic Pantheons exist to act as the leaders of each influence and provide structure and balance to the chart the First Ones created. Think of the Big Bang as an extension of their will. I'd argue that's a great theory to describe them, but we won't know who they really are until possibly the Grimoire and its release.

Even in new lore, the Titans are as you stated them to be. Algalon's speech of the Titans shaping entire planetary systems in 1 mortal heartbeat is not really retconned or anything like that.

[shoc]

We never fought a full-power Titan. We fight the depowered Avatar of Sargeras, the corrupted Avatar of Aggramar, and the totally corrupted Avatar of Argus, but we never faced off against any full powered Titans. We would not stand a minute's chance.

Sargeras in full-titan form is the size of a planet.

[huth]

We never fought a full-power Titan. We fight the depowered Avatar of Sargeras, the corrupted Avatar of Aggramar, and the totally corrupted Avatar of Argus, but we never faced off against any full powered Titans. We would not stand a minute's chance.

Sargeras in full-titan form is the size of a planet.

I don't think Argus was an avatar, but he was heavily drained, never got born properly and we had the support of no less than 5 adult Titans, even if they were weakened. It's more of a surprise that it didn't end up as a curb-stomp of 5 adults against a single baby.

[darkoms]

"Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Yes, so we are clearly not low-titan level." Not regularly, no. Us empowered by the Titans were, tho we still died. Even with the help, the battle came up a clutch.

"They run alongside, but they do no damage and the only help we get is that Yrel is destroying the spiers of fel. As I said, this is a game mechanic."

True. But, they still attacked. So hey, NPC's are cool.

"I loved the idea that if the First Ones are tied to the Titans, the Heart of Azeroth can activate their relics."

Well, the Cosmic Pantheons are tied to them, but yes. You're not really wrong here. It is a nice idea, and I wish Blizzard kept at this idea, but it may or may not be the case anymore.

"I mean that they are some kind of divine beings and that we know very little about them and they ordered the universe (in the old lore, the Titans created worlds, not just ordered)."

The First Ones did more than just order stuff. If they created the framework of the Cosmos and are the architects of all these things, etc. I would assume they were the ones that actually made the stuff to begin with, the Cosmic Pantheons exist to act as the leaders of each influence and provide structure and balance to the chart the First Ones created. Think of the Big Bang as an extension of their will. I'd argue that's a great theory to describe them, but we won't know who they really are until possibly the Grimoire and its release.

Even in new lore, the Titans are as you stated them to be. Algalon's speech of the Titans shaping entire planetary systems in 1 mortal heartbeat is not really retconned or anything like that.

Yes, as I said, we are weaker.

Yes, and in terms of lore, we won only because of them.

I think that was the original idea. It has also been mentioned that the Heart of Azeroth acts as an anchor in the living world and therefore we do not quite obey Shadowlands rules.

Again, you are trying to find the differences between them and do not understand exactly what I mean.

[TheFirstOnes]

We never fought a full-power Titan. We fight the depowered Avatar of Sargeras, the corrupted Avatar of Aggramar, and the totally corrupted Avatar of Argus, but we never faced off against any full powered Titans. We would not stand a minute's chance.

Sargeras in full-titan form is the size of a planet.

Eh, we're likely Titan lvl in Shadowlands, if what Steve and co state is true in that the Pantheon of Death and the Titans are of the same cosmic lvl, and we defeated Denathrius, but in Legion? We're not Titan lvl, yes.

"Sargeras in full-titan form is the size of a planet." Well, yes. But size doesn't factor a Titans power. Sargeras in humanoid size could rape our Legion selves.

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Yes, as I said, we are weaker.

Yes, and in terms of lore, we won only because of them.

I think that was the original idea. It has also been mentioned that the Heart of Azeroth acts as an anchor in the living world and therefore we do not quite obey Shadowlands rules.

Again, you are trying to find the differences between them and do not understand exactly what I mean.

You're not really being specific here. Argus is not a "super avatar", so that point doesn't make sense.

"I think that was the original idea. It has also been mentioned that the Heart of Azeroth acts as an anchor in the living world and therefore we do not quite obey Shadowlands rules." Not like we would obey those rules to begin with.

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I don't think Argus was an avatar, but he was heavily drained, never got born properly and we had the support of no less than 5 adult Titans, even if they were weakened. It's more of a surprise that it didn't end up as a curb-stomp of 5 adults against a single baby.

Well...

They were completely fucked over spirits that were legit moments away from being converted into Dark Avatars of Sargeras' might. Sure, Argus was also weak, but he held the powers of Death itself, as well as amps from Sargeras himself. The guy was the newborn Death Titan by the time we faced him. Doesn't help the armor and spikes were the only things keeping that mother fucker from completely falling apart.

[darkoms]

Eh, we're likely Titan lvl in Shadowlands, if what Steve and co state is true in that the Pantheon of Death and the Titans are of the same cosmic lvl, and we defeated Denathrius, but in Legion? We're not Titan lvl, yes.

"Sargeras in full-titan form is the size of a planet." Well, yes. But size doesn't factor a Titans power. Sargeras in humanoid size could rape our Legion selves.

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You're not really being specific here. Argus is not a "super avatar", so that point doesn't make sense.

"I think that was the original idea. It has also been mentioned that the Heart of Azeroth acts as an anchor in the living world and therefore we do not quite obey Shadowlands rules." Not like we would obey those rules to begin with.

God, this is nonsense again. We are not a Titan level. They said that the Jailer is a Titan-level threat (and not Titan ++ as almost all the community shouts because of the retelling on the WoWhead) and compared him to Argus and N'zoth (both of which were not at the level of a real Titan), but people from -because they cannot read or only read some scraps (add to this the game in the broken phone on the forums, not only on this, but everywhere, on the official forums, Reddit) and you will get complete chaos. In one interview, they did say that the Eternals Ones is the Titan level, and then in another interview, they said that the Winter Queen is lower than the Titans and compared her to the Titan Keeper. They themselves have no idea what level of power the Eternal Ones are. I think that they were originally at the level of the Titans, but put all their power into their covenants (which is why the covenant is destroyed at the death of the Eternal One as it was after that bug with the murder of Archon).

In Bfa we lost to N'zoth and we were saved by Magni and MOTHER. If you think that in one patch we jumped from a level much lower than the old gods (whom the Titans can kill as easily as we kill cockroaches) to the level of the Titans, then you simply do not know how it works.

I said that I consider him a super avatar because he has a unique case. He was forcibly converted into flesh (or whatever) and was far from his full strength. When I say super-avatar, I do not mean the same as a regular avatar, but more powerful, I mean this particular unique case.

[TheFirstOnes]

Besides, it's not like the Titan spirits could do anything, since Sargeras himself was spectating the battle, and the Titans were tryna regain their remaining strength.

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God, this is nonsense again. We are not a Titan level. They said that the Jailer is a Titan-level threat (and not Titan ++ as almost all the community shouts because of the retelling on the WoWhead) and compared him to Argus and N'zoth (both of which were not at the level of a real Titan), but people from -because they cannot read or only read some scraps (add to this the game in the broken phone on the forums, not only on this, but everywhere, on the official forums, Reddit) and you will get complete chaos. In one interview, they did say that the Eternals Ones is the Titan level, and then in another interview, they said that the Winter Queen is lower than the Titans and compared her to the Titan Keeper. They themselves have no idea what level of power the Eternal Ones are. I think that they were originally at the level of the Titans, but put all their power into their covenants (which is why the covenant is destroyed at the death of the Eternal One as it was after that bug with the murder of Archon).

In Bfa we lost to N'zoth and we were saved by Magni and MOTHER. If you think that in one patch we jumped from a level much lower than the old gods (whom the Titans can kill as easily as we kill cockroaches) to the level of the Titans, then you simply do not know how it works.

I said that I consider him a super avatar because he has a unique case. He was forcibly converted into flesh (or whatever) and was far from his full strength. When I say super-avatar, I do not mean the same as a regular avatar, but more powerful, I mean this particular unique case.

Yeah, Steve Danuser pinned the Eternal Ones on the level of the Keepers months ago. I have a more recent interview that pins the Pantheon of the Death and the Titans as the same level.

"If you think that in one patch we jumped from a level much lower than the old gods (whom the Titans can kill as easily as we kill cockroaches) to the level of the Titans, then you simply do not know how it works."

Or you just don't know how borrowed power works. Cause we're weaker in BFA than we were in Legion.

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I feel like you just can't accept the fact that the Titans and the Legion aren't the main guys anymore...

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And that guys can in fact be more powerful than them, and we ourselves with the borrowed power are required to stop those threats, cause that's the narrative.

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I feel like if Blizzard outright confirms the Jailer is the most powerful being we've seen or faced in the WC Universe so far, you'd still somehow state that Sargeras is more threatening, when in current lore, he's just a dumbass.

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Also, all Ion did when comparing the Jailer with Argus and N'Zoth was so showcase just how much greater the threats need to be, since Old Gods and lower Titans aren't really all that crazy anymore, due to the fact that we've faced them already. Had nothing to do with power. So, us facing off against the Cosmic Pantheons such as the Titans, and the Eternal Ones with the right amount of amps is probably believable, yes...

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Idk, I don't like debating how powerful the Titans are (Like, OH WOW are they so fucking OP we still can't even comprehend them? Or are they just stupid and weak?), cause they're not the only Cosmic Pantheon anymore, so who gives two shits about how "great" they are? Even the story doesn't care anymore. The Titans were cool from Classic to MoP. Not so much now. Like, all the shit that made them cool is now gone.

[darkoms]

Besides, it's not like the Titan spirits could do anything, since Sargeras himself was spectating the battle, and the Titans were tryna regain their remaining strength.

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Yeah, Steve Danuser pinned the Eternal Ones on the level of the Keepers months ago. I have a more recent interview that pins the Pantheon of the Death and the Titans as the same level.

"If you think that in one patch we jumped from a level much lower than the old gods (whom the Titans can kill as easily as we kill cockroaches) to the level of the Titans, then you simply do not know how it works."

Or you just don't know how borrowed power works. Cause we're weaker in BFA than we were in Legion.

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I feel like you just can't accept the fact that the Titans and the Legion aren't the main guys anymore...

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And that guys can in fact be more powerful than them, and we ourselves with the borrowed power are required to stop those threats, cause that's the narrative.

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I feel like if Blizzard outright confirms the Jailer is the most powerful being we've seen or faced in the WC Universe so far, you'd still somehow state that Sargeras is more threatening, when in current lore, he's just a dumbass.

What do you mean the titan spirits couldn't do something? They helped in the battle against Argus.

For instance? I saw him in a recent interview where he says that the Eternals and the Titans are below the Firsts, but he does not compare their strength to each other.

That's right, Ion was trying to show threat, not personal strength. The Eternal Ones did not demonstrate anything at the level of the Titans, and Archon was almost killed by Devos.

Can you give me a proof that we are weaker in BFA than in the Legion? You constantly assert this and your only argument is that artifacts are stronger than the Heart of Azeroth, but you never give proof of this claim. Maybe you will either give it now or you will never say this nonsense again?

LOL what? It was you who jerked off to the Legion, your nickname was literally Argus the Unmaker and in every topic you tried to prove that Argus is the strongest creature in Warcraft because it can destroy the universe. Now when they tell us that the Jailer is Titan ++, and his army is equal to the Legion, you started jerking off at him, but are you sure that I am the one who was a fan of the Titans and the Legion?

I never argue with Blizzard. You were trying to prove to me that Blizzard's direct statements do not mean anything because Kosak left an incorrectly worded comment on Reddit, which means that all his tweets automatically ceased to be canonical, which means that the Lich King is stronger than Lei Shen. Ironically, before you laughed at Arthas fans and shouted about how cool the Legion is and that the Scourge is nothing compared to the Legion, but now that we were shown the Jailer, you suddenly decided to start protecting Arthas. You literally change your mind from case to case and try to present the lore as you personally like it. If the next addon will be about the Void, and they show us the Void Lords and Blizzard say that their armies are cooler than the Legion and the Jailer combined, you will also shout about how cool they are and, together with Varodok, drown this forum in calls to worship the Void and praise Alleria and The Void of the Lords.

[TheFirstOnes]

Idk, am I wrong? Outside of that 1 old interview, what about the Eternal Ones screams "keeper" level? And don't say "cause I think they're weak", cause we legit have no idea how big the gap is between us now and us from BFA with the armor and weapons we wield. For all we know, because the Shadowlands is a Cosmic Realm, the shit we have exceeds the mightiest weapons of Reality. We don't fuckin know, and quite frankly, I'm just gonna stay with the idea that the Eternal Ones, the Titans, and the Void Lords are on the same level of power and rank.

[darkoms]

Idk, am I wrong? Outside of that 1 old interview, what about the Eternal Ones screams "keeper" level? And don't say "cause I think they're weak", cause we legit have no idea how big the gap is between us now and us from BFA with the armor and weapons we wield. For all we know, because the Shadowlands is a Cosmic Realm, the shit we have exceeds the mightiest weapons of Reality. We don't fuckin know, and quite frankly, I'm just gonna stay with the idea that the Eternal Ones, the Titans, and the Void Lords are on the same level of power and rank.

Screams for the Keeper level? What. It was in an interview and we see in the game that they are not very strong. We don't even need help against Denatrius. Oh, of course you are right. I completely forgot, it's written in the Chronicle. Any trash from Shadowlands can give any mortal the power of a Titan, even if he had no chance against the Old God before. Will you start giving proofs or not? So stop putting your opinion at 100% if you don't have proofs.

[TheFirstOnes]

"Can you give me a proof that we are weaker in BFA than in the Legion? You constantly assert this and your only argument is that artifacts are stronger than the Heart of Azeroth, but you never give proof of this claim. Maybe you will either give it now or you will never say this nonsense again?"

We took down the Avatar of Aggramar prior to gaining any type of "titan amp".

We're succumbing the whispers of the weakest Old God, and only won cause of a Titan weapon, Magni and MOTHER, etc.

Oh wow...totally weaker here. Not like the first boss of Antorus was literally a world destroy Fel Reaver or anything.

"LOL what? It was you who jerked off to the Legion, your nickname was literally Argus the Unmaker and in every topic you tried to prove that Argus is the strongest creature in Warcraft because it can destroy the universe. Now when they tell us that the Jailer is Titan ++, and his army is equal to the Legion, you started jerking off at him, but are you sure that I am the one who was a fan of the Titans and the Legion?"

I'm not jerking off the Jailer. I'm calling him a greater threat, which is true. And Argus was only that powerful cause of his Death Magics. I've explained to you already that his physical power sucks. Don't use me from years ago to justify your current narrative.

"Ironically, before you laughed at Arthas fans and shouted about how cool the Legion is and that the Scourge is nothing compared to the Legion, but now that we were shown the Jailer, you suddenly decided to start protecting Arthas."

Funny, cause I already explained why Arthas sucked. Like...4 posts ago. Not that hard.

"You literally change your mind from case to case and try to present the lore as you personally like it. If the next addon will be about the Void, and they show us the Void Lords and Blizzard say that their armies are cooler than the Legion and the Jailer combined, you will also shout about how cool they are and, together with Varodok, drown this forum in calls to worship the Void and praise Alleria and The Void of the Lords"

Cause if that's the narrative they write, then that's the narrative I'm gonna say makes 1 force more powerful or greater than the other.

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The only way I could see you argue us from Legion being weaker than us from BFA is if you somehow get Xanesh or Azshara above Kil'Jaeden/Archimonde, or the Avatar of Aggramar. Even then, good luck trying to get them at similar levels.

[shoc]

Eh, we're likely Titan lvl in Shadowlands, if what Steve and co state is true in that the Pantheon of Death and the Titans are of the same cosmic lvl, and we defeated Denathrius, but in Legion? We're not Titan lvl, yes.

"Sargeras in full-titan form is the size of a planet." Well, yes. But size doesn't factor a Titans power. Sargeras in humanoid size could rape our Legion selves.

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You're not really being specific here. Argus is not a "super avatar", so that point doesn't make sense.

"I think that was the original idea. It has also been mentioned that the Heart of Azeroth acts as an anchor in the living world and therefore we do not quite obey Shadowlands rules." Not like we would obey those rules to begin with.

Regardless of whatever Danuser says, the Eternal Ones are evidently on par with the Titan Keepers. This is based on the facts that we observe in the game and as the narrative unfolds. Full-Power Aman'thul 1-shot the most powerful Old God with two fingers and a squish. The combined might of every single champion, villain, hero and adventurer wouldn't stand a chance against a single full-power Titan.

I forgot that we don't really see Sargeras in full-power, IIRC his body was destroyed and he joined the same disembodied-soul fate enjoyed by the rest of his Pantheon when the Well of Eternity portal collapsed on him.

The Eternal Ones are the same size, physically, compared to the Titan Keepers, and demonstrably share similar power-levels, as Denathrius was also defeated by a raid team of 25 adventurers. Odyn, Thorim, Mimiron, Freya, Ra etc are extremely powerful but still within the realm of being defeated by a raid team of 25 adventurers. The Elemental Lords are also on a similar power level to the Titan Keepers, so arguably Ragnaros and Denathrius also occupy a similar spot on the power ladder.

The Titan Keepers and the Eternal Ones are both capable of similar feats, siring entire races of beings (ie Mechagnomes, Vrykul), creating and maintaining afterlife dimensions (ie. Emerald Dream, Halls of Valor, Helheim), not to mention they are both fueled by a substance called Anima.

Besides, both the Eternal Ones and the Titan Keepers have similar backstories. Lesser Gods created by higher-order Gods to rule over the worlds of their design, and in both cases, those higher-order Gods mysteriously vanished. In the Pantheon's case, Sargeras destroyed them all, in the First One's case, we don't know what happened to them yet.

Titan Pantheon = First Ones
Titan Keepers = Eternal Ones

Finally, Winter Queen calls Ysera 'her sister's pet' which makes sense with this ordering as Ysera was empowered by Freya using Eonar's disembodied power.

[Aresk]

We never fought a full-power Titan. We fight the depowered Avatar of Sargeras, the corrupted Avatar of Aggramar, and the totally corrupted Avatar of Argus, but we never faced off against any full powered Titans. We would not stand a minute's chance.

Sargeras in full-titan form is the size of a planet.

Where did it say Aggramar was a corrupted avatar? We fight his reborn form, the titan of destruction. I see no mention anywhere of that fight being with an avatar. In fact, the only avatar of Aggramar I see mentioned are the tank players during Stage Two of the Argus fight, which are very different from Aggramar himself.

[TheFirstOnes]

Regardless of whatever Danuser says, the Eternal Ones are evidently on par with the Titan Keepers. This is based on the facts that we observe in the game and as the narrative unfolds. Full-Power Aman'thul 1-shot the most powerful Old God with two fingers and a squish. The combined might of every single champion, villain, hero and adventurer wouldn't stand a chance against a single full-power Titan.

I forgot that we don't really see Sargeras in full-power, IIRC his body was destroyed and he joined the same disembodied-soul fate enjoyed by the rest of his Pantheon when the Well of Eternity portal collapsed on him.

The Eternal Ones are the same size, physically, compared to the Titan Keepers, and demonstrably share similar power-levels, as Denathrius was also defeated by a raid team of 25 adventurers. Odyn, Thorim, Mimiron, Freya, Ra etc are extremely powerful but still within the realm of being defeated by a raid team of 25 adventurers. The Elemental Lords are also on a similar power level to the Titan Keepers, so arguably Ragnaros and Denathrius also occupy a similar spot on the power ladder.

The Titan Keepers and the Eternal Ones are both capable of similar feats, siring entire races of beings (ie Mechagnomes, Vrykul), creating and maintaining afterlife dimensions (ie. Emerald Dream, Halls of Valor, Helheim), not to mention they are both fueled by a substance called Anima.

Besides, both the Eternal Ones and the Titan Keepers have similar backstories. Lesser Gods created by higher-order Gods to rule over the worlds of their design, and in both cases, those higher-order Gods mysteriously vanished. In the Pantheon's case, Sargeras destroyed them all, in the First One's case, we don't know what happened to them yet.

Titan Pantheon = First Ones
Titan Keepers = Eternal Ones

Finally, Winter Queen calls Ysera 'her sister's pet' which makes sense with this ordering as Ysera was empowered by Freya using Eonar's disembodied power.

I mean, the Titans can also manipulate their size to that of a Keeper.

"Regardless of whatever Danuser says, the Eternal Ones are evidently on par with the Titan Keepers." What "evidence"? The fact Devos with the Spear of Bastion could defeat the Archon? And why is the Spear of Bastion weaker than anything we've seen in Legion or BFA?

"The Eternal Ones are the same size, physically, compared to the Titan Keepers, and demonstrably share similar power-levels, as Denathrius was also defeated by a raid team of 25 adventurers. Odyn, Thorim, Mimiron, Freya, Ra etc are extremely powerful but still within the realm of being defeated by a raid team of 25 adventurers. The Elemental Lords are also on a similar power level to the Titan Keepers, so arguably Ragnaros and Denathrius also occupy a similar spot on the power ladder."

As you completely miss the context and reasonings we beat these respective characters to begin with by simply argue "BECAUSE ADVENTURERS BEAT THEM, THAT MEANS THEY'RE COMPARABLE" which is just the dumbest piece of logic I've ever seen.

"I forgot that we don't really see Sargeras in full-power, IIRC his body was destroyed and he joined the same disembodied-soul fate enjoyed by the rest of his Pantheon when the Well of Eternity portal collapsed on him."

His body was never destroyed. He was just launched back to the Nether. The Titans also have a regular cloud form.

"Finally, Winter Queen calls Ysera 'her sister's pet' which makes sense with this ordering as Ysera was empowered by Freya using Eonar's disembodied power."

Eonar herself empowered Ysera. All Freya did was provide a vessel for Eonar to infuse her might within the former Proto-drake.

"The Titan Keepers and the Eternal Ones are both capable of similar feats, siring entire races of beings (ie Mechagnomes, Vrykul), creating and maintaining afterlife dimensions (ie. Emerald Dream, Halls of Valor, Helheim), not to mention they are both fueled by a substance called Anima."

The Halls of Valor and places like Bastion are not at all similar in size nor glory. Also, being able to make entire races is also something the Titans could do, not just the Keepers.

"not to mention they are both fueled by a substance called Anima." Wtf are you talking about?

"Besides, both the Eternal Ones and the Titan Keepers have similar backstories. Lesser Gods created by higher-order Gods to rule over the worlds of their design, and in both cases, those higher-order Gods mysteriously vanished. In the Pantheon's case, Sargeras destroyed them all, in the First One's case, we don't know what happened to them yet."

No. As stated by Steve Danuser. "The Titans, the Pantheon of Death, are the next layer down from these First Ones. These Progenitor's of the Universe".

Quit limiting the First Ones to "death" alone to fit this weird narrative that the Titans and the Eternal Ones are not comparable. It's weird.

[darkoms]

"Can you give me a proof that we are weaker in BFA than in the Legion? You constantly assert this and your only argument is that artifacts are stronger than the Heart of Azeroth, but you never give proof of this claim. Maybe you will either give it now or you will never say this nonsense again?"

We took down the Avatar of Aggramar prior to gaining any type of "titan amp".

We're succumbing the whispers of the weakest Old God, and only won cause of a Titan weapon, Magni and MOTHER, etc.

Oh wow...totally weaker here. Not like the first boss of Antorus was literally a world destroy Fel Reaver or anything.

"LOL what? It was you who jerked off to the Legion, your nickname was literally Argus the Unmaker and in every topic you tried to prove that Argus is the strongest creature in Warcraft because it can destroy the universe. Now when they tell us that the Jailer is Titan ++, and his army is equal to the Legion, you started jerking off at him, but are you sure that I am the one who was a fan of the Titans and the Legion?"

I'm not jerking off the Jailer. I'm calling him a greater threat, which is true. And Argus was only that powerful cause of his Death Magics. I've explained to you already that his physical power sucks. Don't use me from years ago to justify your current narrative.

"Ironically, before you laughed at Arthas fans and shouted about how cool the Legion is and that the Scourge is nothing compared to the Legion, but now that we were shown the Jailer, you suddenly decided to start protecting Arthas."

Funny, cause I already explained why Arthas sucked. Like...4 posts ago. Not that hard.

"You literally change your mind from case to case and try to present the lore as you personally like it. If the next addon will be about the Void, and they show us the Void Lords and Blizzard say that their armies are cooler than the Legion and the Jailer combined, you will also shout about how cool they are and, together with Varodok, drown this forum in calls to worship the Void and praise Alleria and The Void of the Lords"

Cause if that's the narrative they write, then that's the narrative I'm gonna say makes 1 force more powerful or greater than the other.

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The only way I could see you argue us from Legion being weaker than us from BFA is if you somehow get Xanesh or Azshara above Kil'Jaeden/Archimonde, or the Avatar of Aggramar. Even then, good luck trying to get them at similar levels.

Well? For some reason, you think that the avatar of Agrammar is stronger than Nzoth or what? The Titan Avatars seem to be at the Titan Keepers level at their prime and it took 9 Keepers to defeat N'zoth. Can you give me a normal proof, and not your fantasies? The weakest Old God is still the Old God. It was said about the arsenal of destruction of worlds and the destruction of worlds is actually not a great feat. Illidan was capable of destroying worlds, was he stronger than N'zoth?

Yes, because the Jailer is the current big bad Warcraft and therefore you fell in love with him just as you fell in love with the Legion before. I'm just reminding you who really was a fan of the Titans and the Legion.

Nevertheless, you tried to prove that Arthas is no weaker than Lei Shen and that the revelations from the SL take him (and his weapon and helmet) to a whole new level.

You don't care about the story, you care about who the main villain is, that's all.

According to your logic, Kael is stronger than C'tun / Ragnaros / other vanilla bosses, which means we are weaker in BC than in Classic. Sorry, this is not how it works. You need to compare the last bosses (and best of all the last bosses of the last raids) and taking into account all the circumstances.