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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Shadowlands is a lot older than 28 days though and it's not surprising that it looks like everyone is minmaxing because everyone that's left probably is. Millions of casuals have already left the game but they conveniently leave them out of the statistics to push their own narrative. When you also show data of characters and not accounts it only gets worse since elitist nolifers are more likely to have multiple characters who all minmax.

    I challenge them to give us all the data. Only one character per account and from the last four months. It will look VERY different.
    They'll never do that. They want covenants turned into a talent row and showing all the data gives them less a chance of that.

    Right now is the dream situation for them. Most casuals have quit and the remaining minmaxers with multiple characters heavily skews the results in their favor.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Lighter View Post
    No this site scans the whole armory it isn't limited by what content they are doing only if they were active in some content within the last 28 days...

    The majority has spoken not with words that can be twisted but with action. You seem to be grasping at anything that will let you dismiss this rather then just accepting it.
    There's no site that scans every character on the armory regardless of what they are doing in game. You are either just lying or being wilfully ignorant to further reinforce your own arguments.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Boomkins are not necessarily the rule here.

    The classes with obvious overlaps do tend to have their preferred covenant as the best choice (dps and resto druids, hunters, unholy DKs and Paladins). However not every class is so lucky. Warlocks are one of the more egregious examples, with Night Fae being the clear winner in spite of the heavy clash with the Warlock aesthetic. Maldraxxus is explicitly designed as the Warrior covenant for warriors who like to do war warriorly, but even after the rework it's not a good choice for DPS warriors. Mages lack any obvious ties to nature but are funnelled to Ardenweald anyway. Shaman, paragons of nature, are encouraged to work with either undead abominations or proud aristocrats.

    Now I'll be the first to argue that from a lore standpoint you can RP any character how you wish and make any covenant fit any class you choose, but it's clear that it's not as clear cut as "the thematic choice just happens to work out". The data definitely seems to support a significant number of players choosing ill-fitting covenants for power gains.
    Warlock is a bit more complicated than that though. None of the covenants really line up neatly with it thematically, and the abilities are thematically super boring except for the Night Fae one. I almost went Night Fae purely because of how much cooler the ability was. It had nothing to do with power. Venthyr and Necrolords provide incredibly bland abilities. Necrolord is just a big bolt on a cooldown. That's it. Night Fae provides a DoT that synergises with other abilities.
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  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    There's no site that scans every character on the armory regardless of what they are doing in game. You are either just lying or being wilfully ignorant to further reinforce your own arguments.
    I mean yes... they cut it off after 28 days of activity but are we really stretching this hard just to not admit the majority of players simply play for power gain and trying to tie restrictive narrative choices to that is a terrible idea?

    Just make those choices cosmetic actually cater to the majority of players. The min maxers.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Lighter View Post
    I mean yes... they cut it off after 28 days of activity but are we really stretching this hard just to not admit the majority of players simply play for power gain and trying to tie restrictive narrative choices to that is a terrible idea?

    Just make those choices cosmetic actually cater to the majority of players. The min maxers.
    Until they provide data four months back in time so we can see what people who don't do high end content picked there is no way to know.

    They need to provide data on accounts, not characters. They also need to show us what all the casuals who quit picked, so roughly four months back. Before they do that their data is useless.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Until they provide data four months back in time so we can see what people who don't do high end content picked there is no way to know.

    They need to provide data on accounts, not characters. They also need to show us what all the casuals who quit picked, so roughly four months back. Before they do that their data is useless.
    Why?

    If they quit what possible point in there is to catering to them? I can kind of get accounts but there is a massive amount of people playing a ton of characters if that is honestly gonna swing these kind of numbers.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Lighter View Post
    Why?

    If they quit what possible point in there is to catering to them? I can kind of get accounts but there is a massive amount of people playing a ton of characters if that is honestly gonna swing these kind of numbers.
    Because without the casual playerbase the game dies. Blizzard catered to the elitists this expansion and it has been driving the casual playerbase away from the game because there's no longer a character progression gameplay loop for them, it has all been stripped away and locked away behind premade group content.
    I would assume that Blizzard wants those players back considering how much sub revenue they're losing out on.
    The hardcore playerbase can't carry this game by themselves.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimlokh View Post
    Except for DK Necrolord, I think none of the classes fit their best covenant thematically. NF Fire Mage? Resto shaman necrolord? Holy Pally Venthyr? Afli Lock Ascended?
    And what does fire mage fit? None. If you are Night Elf Fire Mage, it suddenly fits with Night Fae. What does resto shaman fit? Don't say Night Fae, Shamans are not druids. Shamans uses the elements offensively. Necrolords fit them more than any other Covenant. Because Necrolords are all about War, not only death. Because that would be any Shadowlands Covenant don't you think? Holy paladin is mostly Kyrian, by a large margin according to the stats. Not sure why you listed that one?

    You are listing many specs that doesn't fit many of the thematics perfectly. Affli sure, Necrolords. But you said DK. You know Blood is mostly Venthyr right? Which fits them very well themeattically. Frost, my main this expansion, have had Necrolord as an overall decent one, but not the best in any PvE content until they are now suggesting it for 9.0.5. So why did so many Frost choose Necrolord? Wasn't because of min maxing.

    Both dps Death Knight, all hunter specs, all druid specs, all monk specs, all paladin specs, shadow and disc priest(holy got venthyr as close second, Venthyr actually fits priests very well, atonement and all that jazz), ele and resto, Havoc are all their best fit.

    So my OFTEN argument stands strong.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2021-03-17 at 06:46 PM.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Because without the casual playerbase the game dies. Blizzard catered to the elitists this expansion and it has been driving the casual playerbase away from the game because there's no longer a character progression gameplay loop for them, it has all been stripped away and locked away behind premade group content.
    I would assume that Blizzard wants those players back considering how much sub revenue they're losing out on.
    The hardcore playerbase can't carry this game by themselves.
    The logic of your statement doesn't really pan out... Why do casual players care about these systems? We can see clearly they are a proposed minority. I'm sorry but I suspect that a mmo is going to be based around group play.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    What's real and what isn't really doesn't really matter. It's all about the perception of the community at large. Back when Blizzard did the cosmetic helmets like 5 people total were kicked out of groups for selling them, but a lot of people said they were afraid to buy them because of reading about that. So if the community hypes up how bad the covenant system is going to be and the need to pick the right one for several months leading up to SL, guess what even the casuals are going to do? Couple that with the fact that even the most basic "WTF am I doing?" guides for WoW over at Wowhead/Icy-Veins/etc have sections telling people what their best covenant is, yeah.

    You're generally right but misguided.
    No, i am not misguided. There are clearly better Covenants. The 1% argument is a myth. Of course, it depends on the encounter or type of content you are doing. But, it's undeniable. They synergise with trinket choices, class mechanics and legendaries. Some are clearly better. There is no argument. No one is being misguided. Even if it wasn't on online guides, it would still be noticeable on logs, which they are.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-03-17 at 09:38 PM.

  11. #231
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    'proven' where exactly? The only 'proof' i saw is the vast majority of wow players are extremely casual who don't even do mythic dungeons or any pugging, solo players to the core, as stated in last blizzcon
    my source is same video they were talking about faction balance and how alliance/horde ratio is almost 50%, which video was that exactly in all blizzcon no idea
    What is ur source that most wow players min-max? I literally saw and heard them say exact opposite
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    And what does fire mage fit? None. If you are Night Elf Fire Mage, it suddenly fits with Night Fae. What does resto shaman fit? Don't say Night Fae, Shamans are not druids. Shamans uses the elements offensively. Necrolords fit them more than any other Covenant. Because Necrolords are all about War, not only death. Because that would be any Shadowlands Covenant don't you think? Holy paladin is mostly Kyrian, by a large margin according to the stats. Not sure why you listed that one?

    You are listing many specs that doesn't fit many of the thematics perfectly. Affli sure, Necrolords. But you said DK. You know Blood is mostly Venthyr right? Which fits them very well themeattically. Frost, my main this expansion, have had Necrolord as an overall decent one, but not the best in any PvE content until they are now suggesting it for 9.0.5. So why did so many Frost choose Necrolord? Wasn't because of min maxing.

    Both dps Death Knight, all hunter specs, all druid specs, all monk specs, all paladin specs, shadow and disc priest(holy got venthyr as close second, Venthyr actually fits priests very well, atonement and all that jazz), ele and resto, Havoc are all their best fit.

    So my OFTEN argument stands strong.
    I'd say Mage are heroic magic users, Kyrian is the closest

    Night Fae are the closest for Shaman because Shaman are tied to nature and the elements, who sometimes use spirits.

    Venthyr can be good with Holy Pallies

    Shadowpriest's best is Night Fae so wrong, Ret is all over the place and the only really bad one is Necro, Elemental and Resto's best is Necrolord, how is that fitting?, Havoc's best is Night Fae, doesn't make much sense

    Affliction Warlock's best is Night Fae, Night Fae is best for 2 out of 3 Rogue specs. Arcane's best is Necro and Frost is Venthyr. Arms is Venthyr...

    Face it and stop lying...there are a lot of specs that don't fit thematically with their best covenants
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Face it and stop lying...there are a lot of specs that don't fit thematically with their best covenants
    So you can't fucking read then.

  14. #234
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    So you can't fucking read then.
    I can read, I read you saying saying the wrong covenants were best for certain specs and that you claimed most specs best covenants were thematically the best, which is wrong...many don't fit thematically. But I love how you didn't quote that part
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    'proven' where exactly? The only 'proof' i saw is the vast majority of wow players are extremely casual who don't even do mythic dungeons or any pugging, solo players to the core, as stated in last blizzcon
    my source is same video they were talking about faction balance and how alliance/horde ratio is almost 50%, which video was that exactly in all blizzcon no idea
    What is ur source that most wow players min-max? I literally saw and heard them say exact opposite
    It shows that even if they are casual they move so strongly towards min maxing that it is utterly folly to design around the idea they do differently. The faction imbalance is a different topic one brought about by blizzard mishandling racials so badly and being addicted to that sweet faction/server change money that they allowed the lion share of the end game population to cement itself on one faction.

    There are limits to min maxing. For example no matter how hard they try people hate mechagnomes.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    I can read, I read you saying saying the wrong covenants were best for certain specs and that you claimed most specs best covenants were thematically the best, which is wrong...many don't fit thematically. But I love how you didn't quote that part
    And I love how you try to score a point when your entire post was based on something I didn't say And I even listed all those in the first post you quoted. I mean how far out there can you be? Why would I quote something I already wrote myself that many specs do not fit the covenants we got? Not to mention some of the the ones you list up are wrong when it comes to most chosen, which you know, is what we are talking about. It's quite embarrasing to read what you try to come up with.

    First you misunderstand my post. Then you try to score a point about something that doesn't have anything to do with what I wrote. Havocs best is Night Fae you write? Okay, but I am talking about what players are actually CHOOSING, and most Havoc DH's chose Venthyr. Shadow Priests best is Night Fae you write? Okay, but it's the least chosen one, and Venthyr is most chosen by a large margin compared to Night Fae. Ret is all over the place you write? Okay, but, yeah, Kyrian is just chosen by twice as many players as the rest of the 3 combined, and even then its not close. Do you see what I am talking about here? I don't expect you to because you missed the very thread of the discussion completely. I mean hello?

    So the only one who ignored something here is the one who didn't try to argue against all those I listed that DO fit their Covenant themeatically. So no, you appearently can't read. You even prove that in this post of here. Also, you can try to look up on the word "often". And check out the 18 specs that their best Covenant is also the best fit themeatically. I mean, that is quite often.


    I named it "allovertheplace".
    Last edited by Doffen; 2021-03-18 at 02:14 AM.

  17. #237
    I might be missing something, but why does anyone care what spec or covenant another person takes?

    I took venthyr on my mage because I liked the additional teleporting and aoe, it was made with purely my own interests at play and I can't ever imagine doing anything because it's what everyone else does or gives me a fractional dps boost

    I like the additional options tbh

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Ast1982 View Post
    I might be missing something, but why does anyone care what spec or covenant another person takes?

    I took venthyr on my mage because I liked the additional teleporting and aoe, it was made with purely my own interests at play and I can't ever imagine doing anything because it's what everyone else does or gives me a fractional dps boost

    I like the additional options tbh
    People care, because they (rightfully) want to make the point that Blizzard's third rate attempt to intrudce babies first RPG choice into WoW is complete and utter nonsense (even story wise if were not for a single unbelieveable throwaway line at the end of questing) and people overwhelmingly go with the best numerical choice due to Blizzard's utter incompetence when it comes to balancing. There are 2 huge outliers to this, namely Kyrian Paladin and Night Fae Druid, because the theme and aestetic just fit these two classes AND the abilities are very strong, wheres the rest is is pretty much just centered around the best choice. This is especially bad in some covenants where some ablities are/were just flat out bad, like Kyrian Mage for example.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
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  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Lighter View Post
    It shows that even if they are casual they move so strongly towards min maxing that it is utterly folly to design around the idea they do differently.
    This is not the only conclusion you can take from the data in fact your applying your preconceived ideas and just looking for data to match it. Its the exact opposite of being scientific. The data doesn't necessarily indicate the desire for players to min max but rather the fact that people simple don't know what to pick and look for guidance.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #240
    The answer, imo, seems to be to let us change classes/specs/covenants and covenant like things, easier.

    The game is too complex, apparently, to balance correctly.

    They could make it less complex, but that would probably make it more boring than it already is.

    Just have to face it, this isn't the old low information days anymore.

    An alternative would be much more frequent balance patches, so as to muddy the waters a bit. I'm a fan of that approach.

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