PvP gearing without doing Rated Arena/RBG = trash gear?

[Peaceul]

Gearing in pvp was good in the beginning of expansion, now even if you get 1400 rating and upgrade all items to 207, you still gonna be oneshoted hard by 225+ backpedalling dragon slayers. And they will literally kill you with single button press - Paladin Judgement 30k in one gcd, Druid convoke, The Hunt, Rogue. I would reccomend staying away from rated pvp until 215 ilvl at least atm.

[Argorwal]

BC and Wrath had resilience gear. And late Vanilla also had good grindable honor gear.

Clearly that's what we need to have return.

I would be fine with a PvP stat tbh.

Vanilla gear wasn’t grindable until the TBC pre-patch.

And conquest gear was WAY better than honor gear and people had to do rated for that besides the 2 slots that dropped from Wintergrasp/Tol Borad.

Seems like for most of the games life PvP gearing was about getting stomped by geared players until you finally could gear yourself.

[Tadkins]

I would be fine with a PvP stat tbh.

Vanilla gear wasn’t grindable until the TBC pre-patch.

And conquest gear was WAY better than honor gear and people had to do rated for that besides the 2 slots that dropped from Wintergrasp/Tol Borad.

Seems like for most of the games life PvP gearing was about getting stomped by geared players until you finally could gear yourself.

Ideally I'd just love to see templates come back. Everyone on an even footing, no need to have to get stomped until you're geared, and it even allowed one to try alts in PvP they otherwise never would have.

But barring that, I'd much prefer the older system to come back. Could grind honor gear, all while slowly grinding conquest gear, without having to become a gladiatorial champion. I felt like I was progressing and I felt like I could have a fighting chance.

Anything is just better than right now, the current system makes me genuinely depressed.

[Alkizon]

Niwes
maybe Blizz overdid a bit their supporting of their smart cash grab system

Was hinting to this 2 years ago.

On one hand, no matter how you're perverting stuff, still full-fledged equivalent progress between PvP and PvE activities will be non-working without requirement of separating characteristics (as I have already said many times, for each of activities separately). On the other hand, topic criticizes not so much inadequate/uneven itemization, but rather speed and availability of these upgrades/progress, this more affects their love to rely on "inflation rate" as fundamental factor in controlling rate of content consumption... First, they fed you RNG system and endless grind, now they do with micro-upgrades (and this is if we forget about separate disturbing element in form of borrowed powers, and dimly looming somewhere on horizon (it's not yet clear if this is true and how "adequate" in terms of logic and force-differentiation) new "raid itemization" (I'd like to say something specifically about it, something more than what is said in general about such system, but so far didn't see any certain information). Inflation doesn't want to be slow down in any way, "items'color" will continue to mean mostly nothing, system/organization of professions continues to be "progress'family" unloved child (because they can't/don't want to figure out how to control "rate of its consumption").

Is this all better than RNG system? Yes, perhaps, but their common problem remains essentially the same *pointing to 1st paragraph* they don't want to maintain standards of their universe's natural logic and simplicity/availability of upgrade/itemization system as a whole. We touched on this recently here and here (also).

...however, this again doesn't literally answer my attitude to issue raised by current topic (only in terms of attitude to root cause of outraging element). Okay, so let me just quote 3 chunks from discussions that dealt with this:

They continue to fail to understand that when people argue about whether progress and items are important in PvP, then everyone is right in own way, so you need to give "both", ie give progress to compensate for PvE progress (for this use dividing characteristics), but progress: 1) should not take a million exhausting @$$-hours (and this is strictly speaking both for the sake of PvE and for the sake of PvP community, both sides will benefit from it because PvP isn't PvE, there is completely different component of "satisfaction"; dividing helps to avoid escalating conflict between PvP/PvE progress); 2) have really achievable "leveling" ceiling, where skill and set of characteristics you have chosen will already be important (people continue to participate in PvP either by dressing twinks for this or simply enjoying process without additional revards, however, cosmetics in itself could be a small bonus, there is nothing wrong with that, but you don't need to weave PvE progress here); 3) at the same time, entire structure of classes shouldn't depend in any way on this action (in order to avoid direct dependence of system's balancing on classes' structure and design; for the same reason so-called PvP talents "designated for idiots" was initial delusion, like paragon system, like "borrowed powers" - all this is directly related to organization of progress), this is pure mathematics and organization of characteristics; 4) the whole structure of progress must stop resembling economic crisis (I'm talking about inflation).

(separation) In presence of separating both PvP and PvE characteristics (again, within framework of same one game), everything falls into place for each activity (1. no freebies, 2. same lvl/amount of strength/role-customizing indicators, 3. corresponding items offer advantages in their proper use, 4. there is progress which creating some hierarchy/ranking according to duration of participation/own experience of particular activity, and allows more adequately select opponents even outside of rating, but 5. it's not really long, thereof PvP caps' obtainment didn't create really "long" problems for PvE players), and with return of adequate "directional" servers, also goes away unnecessary claims of players to "someone else's choice" in relation to interest in part of everyone's participation in particular activity = complete separation of activities is obtained, still within framework of one game and obeying main rules of open world (without setting unnecessary restrictions and without inventing unnecessary artificial bonuses), leaving solution of particular situation to each player's will...

point is that gear = characteristics are important for separation content areas, for individual RPG customization and as indicator of character's progress in this content (since “content” is available from the beginning for PvP, rating talks more about your skill, but gear - about your progress;

MoanaLisa
Limited time to play implies more solo play so PVE is a natural choice.

I'd say that statement would be true only if obtaining progress and content mostly tied to it (since limited time =<priority>= profit activities), but since there is no specialization in characteristics (PvP vs PvE) and PvP doesn't usually take precedence in direct progress for such conditions (since encounters aren't limited by CD, they're controlled(/exploitable) by players and take lesser time), your statement is absolutely true. It's logical, because conclusion in this case is obvious and no any stupid PvP talents will be able to prevent this. I'd criticize word "solo" in same way, but I won't.

these concepts are somewhat blurred for PVE (because of LFR/M+(-vicious opinion) multi-level difficulty, with mentioned balance/progress system's+ violation/overlap)).

What exactly can be learned from this:
1) person, who said that gear isn't important at up-rate PvP, is rights, since people, who're there, have gone path of "qualifications/progress" and are at the same/very close in progress;
2) if you read one of last links of 3rd paragraph, it becomes clear that system with access to "near/same-level orbit" took place at some period within the game - we are talking about cap's accessibility, player's skill helped only in reducing path's length (+ a couple of good ones, but not significantly outweighing bonuses), which means that only really connoisseurs of this pastime remained fighting for the rating, so mostly didn't interfere with "rest of plebs swarming in the mud" (for the same reason, link with raid progress description insists on their bonuses' insignificance, but there must be some logic behind this, and not stupid illogical "shutdown", that's for PvE, also badge items);
3) previous one was possible due to presence of requirements of corresponding characteristics, namely, rather rapid progress in PvP didn't outweigh PvE progress due to lack of rating PvE characteristics (which everyone had forgotten long ago, and this is very wrong), and subsequent PvE progress with moderate inflation didn't outweigh PvP due to non-participation of PvP characteristics in it (badge items, being same "powerfully", has non of both);
4) so - same path and size/amount of customizing/power characteristics on items for both activities (ilvl), but they don't interfere with each other for (3), which means that their path (speed/stages) can be controlled separately from each other (2), still progress/ranking system, being the basis game mechanics, continues to fully carry out its work.
5) PROFIT?

The only things that needed for this are more correct characteristics' system (I recommend MoP, in fact, doing this not the first time already), different system of itemization/progress and distribution of loot (this also has been said, there're links in 3rd paragraph)... well, somehow like this.

...but after all, latter will "shit in slippers" with beloved tokens, all forms of scaling and temporary progress systems for devs (more real rather than pretend work) and will somehow offend some solo players, which don't want to depend on anyone, don't want to communicate "closely" with anyone, or to participate in something where people will evaluate significance of their success, and often not so much mechanically, but sometimes even more socially, so this can put them into a defenseless position, because they don't have enough will to stand up for themselves. I still don't understand why they came into MMO, the only thing that comes to mind is that devs, out of greed, beckoned them with carrots, deceived them, and now we have situation that we have. At the same time, without looking at fact that everyone is trying not to offend the other at first, everything ends with big swearing and no end to the edge of this is visible.

since they eliminated unavoidable elements of social interaction, took away sensible control from players, gave it to automation, so players, in revenge, took control out of game area and now devs also ceased to control anything... timer/pl-lootbox/rio-rating/hurry-no-talking/half-dungeon-is-zero-result - this isn't about everyone, but since game doesn't recommend appropriate behavior in key places' design, which means it doesn't teach, doesn't weed out at initial stage - there're no natural conditions for formation of community, which means "what has grown, has already grown" means whining, toxicity and crying mice chewing cactus at final stage of game design (it's too late, initial stage has been missed)

[Nellise]

Ideally I'd just love to see templates come back. Everyone on an even footing, no need to have to get stomped until you're geared, and it even allowed one to try alts in PvP they otherwise never would have.

But barring that, I'd much prefer the older system to come back. Could grind honor gear, all while slowly grinding conquest gear, without having to become a gladiatorial champion. I felt like I was progressing and I felt like I could have a fighting chance.

Anything is just better than right now, the current system makes me genuinely depressed.

I think the people saying "just do rated stuff" miss the fact that you could gear and compete completely solo the previous 2 expansions. Blizzard took that away in Shadowlands. I haven't upgraded a piece of gear on my 2 main characters in over 3 months, they've both been stuck at 200. It sucks. I have no interest in grouping other than randoms. Coordinated groups suck the fun out of the game for me. I've done the hardcore thing in the past, I had way less fun doing that than just playing solo the last few years...until SL removed the option of playing solo and being able to compete.

There used to be wf/tf for some lucky upgrades and BfA had pvp gear from capping weekly conquest that eventually gave heroic level gear after a couple months (213 equiv gear now). There was also AP for tiny upgrades so at least you always had some bit of progress. BfA had visions for the last year too that gave nearly mythic level gear. There is no equivalent to those systems any more.

[GnomeEU]

I know you don't wanna do any of this but doing pve alone or pvp alone never got you geared much.
My char is one week old at 200 ilvl, I almost reach 1400 rating then I can buy full 207.
Should be np to get higher then.
Yes pvp is a lot harder when everyone is already geared.
I also bought 2x m14 so I got 2x 226 from vault.

I also don't like this system where you need high rating to get gear. Because at 1300 I fight ppl In full 210.
At 2300 you fight ppl who all got the 2400 weapons etc.

It's frustrating but eventually you can climb the ladder.
You can get further gear now from pve mythic plus Spam and raids. Every char should be able to clear heroic raid after 4 weeks.

[noctim2]

The system is flawed in a critical way.

You are basically dead weight for a VERY long time, because you simply lack gear. There is just not even a slight chance for you to overpower an Arena player with default equipment. You will either need to outskill him on a prodigy level or the other player has to be seriously intoxicated or throwing to lose against you.

In PvE you can at least do harmless worldquest or easymode heroic dungeons or LFR raiding. Here you REALLY don't need high end mythic equipment.

In PvP it's just a hopeless grind of losing and losing and losing and losing until you somehow acquire (grind) any form of high end gear.

Problem is that for the good gear you need to win a fair amount of matches. But if you don't have the good gear, winning is barely possible. What a vicious circle.

[Frozenbro]

Not when your battlegrounds/warmode is full of the folks lucky enough to do rated PvP/raids/M+ and will just stomp you.

Well they put the effort for that gear, you didnt xd so its not luck, they worked for their gear, you just refuse to.

[Niwes]

Was hinting to this 2 years ago.

On one hand, no matter how you're perverting stuff, still full-fledged equivalent progress between PvP and PvE activities will be non-working without requirement of separating characteristics (as I have already said many times, for each of activities separately). On the other hand, topic criticizes not so much inadequate/uneven itemization, but rather speed and availability of these upgrades/progress, this more affects their love to rely on "inflation rate" as fundamental factor in controlling rate of content consumption... First, they fed you RNG system and endless grind, now they do with micro-upgrades (and this is if we forget about separate disturbing element in form of borrowed powers, and dimly looming somewhere on horizon (it's not yet clear if this is true and how "adequate" in terms of logic and force-differentiation) new "raid itemization" (I'd like to say something specifically about it, something more than what is said in general about such system, but so far didn't see any certain information). Inflation doesn't want to be slow down in any way, "items'color" will continue to mean mostly nothing, system/organization of professions continues to be "progress'family" unloved child (because they can't/don't want to figure out how to control "rate of its consumption").

Is this all better than RNG system? Yes, perhaps, but their common problem remains essentially the same *pointing to 1st paragraph* they don't want to maintain standards of their universe's natural logic and simplicity/availability of upgrade/itemization system as a whole. We touched on this recently here and here (also).

...however, this again doesn't literally answer my attitude to issue raised by current topic (only in terms of attitude to root cause of outraging element). Okay, so let me just quote 3 chunks from discussions that dealt with this:



What exactly can be learned from this:
1) person, who said that gear isn't important at up-rate PvP, is rights, since people, who're there, have gone path of "qualifications/progress" and are at the same/very close in progress;
2) if you read one of last links of 3rd paragraph, it becomes clear that system with access to "near/same-level orbit" took place at some period within the game - we are talking about cap's accessibility, player's skill helped only in reducing path's length (+ a couple of good ones, but not significantly outweighing bonuses), which means that only really connoisseurs of this pastime remained fighting for the rating, so mostly didn't interfere with "rest of plebs swarming in the mud" (for the same reason, link with raid progress description insists on their bonuses' insignificance, but there must be some logic behind this, and not stupid illogical "shutdown", that's for PvE, also badge items);
3) previous one was possible due to presence of requirements of corresponding characteristics, namely, rather rapid progress in PvP didn't outweigh PvE progress due to lack of rating PvE characteristics (which everyone had forgotten long ago, and this is very wrong), and subsequent PvE progress with moderate inflation didn't outweigh PvP due to non-participation of PvP characteristics in it (badge items, being same "powerfully", has non of both);
4) so - same path and size/amount of customizing/power characteristics on items for both activities (ilvl), but they don't interfere with each other for (3), which means that their path (speed/stages) can be controlled separately from each other (2), still progress/ranking system, being the basis game mechanics, continues to fully carry out its work.
5) PROFIT?

The only things that needed for this are more correct characteristics' system (I recommend MoP, in fact, doing this not the first time already), different system of itemization/progress and distribution of loot (this also has been said, there're links in 3rd paragraph)... well, somehow like this.

...but after all, latter will "shit in slippers" with beloved tokens, all forms of scaling and temporary progress systems for devs and will somehow offend some solo players, which don't want to depend on anyone, don't want to communicate "closely" with anyone, or to participate in something where people will evaluate significance of their success, and often not so much mechanically, but sometimes even more socially, so this can put them into a defenseless position, because they don't have enough will to stand up for themselves. I still don't understand why they came into MMO, the only thing that comes to mind is that devs, out of greed, beckoned them with carrots, deceived them, and now we have situation that we have. At the same time, without looking at fact that everyone is trying not to offend the other at first, everything ends with big swearing and no end to the edge of this is visible.

well thought and well said.

the problem is that Blizz and Bobby Kotick are solely interessted in maximizing their profit and that their goal is to hide away your given facts as much as possible and focus on smart cash grab systems like Token and how the game supports them the most, because they earn 7 additional bugs, by doing nothing, for every Token ever passing the AH. From millions of players. This is big business money making machine shit. and since this is the root for everything you said, they give a fuck about the consequences you described, as long as it works and produces the targeted $$ bling bling.

[JessicaJones]

Rated PvP is still something that one can easily struggle with. It requires a lot of coordination with specific people. It's easy to lose at and you gain nothing at all by losing.

In the past we used to be able to get decent enough PvP gear just doing random battlegrounds and other forms of casual, no-gate PvP. What was wrong with that and why can't we go back to that?

you gain experience by losing because afterwards you should be figuring out what went wrong.

you can queue up with lfg idiots and get 2.1 no voice in like 30 or 40 wins coz mmr is so high, getting 1600 in rbg is legit like getting 1200 in arena, maybe even less.

[Tadkins]

I think the people saying "just do rated stuff" miss the fact that you could gear and compete completely solo the previous 2 expansions. Blizzard took that away in Shadowlands. I haven't upgraded a piece of gear on my 2 main characters in over 3 months, they've both been stuck at 200. It sucks. I have no interest in grouping other than randoms. Coordinated groups suck the fun out of the game for me. I've done the hardcore thing in the past, I had way less fun doing that than just playing solo the last few years...until SL removed the option of playing solo and being able to compete.

There used to be wf/tf for some lucky upgrades and BfA had pvp gear from capping weekly conquest that eventually gave heroic level gear after a couple months (213 equiv gear now). There was also AP for tiny upgrades so at least you always had some bit of progress. BfA had visions for the last year too that gave nearly mythic level gear. There is no equivalent to those systems any more.

Agreed. And it is why I feel left out.

- - - Updated - - -

Well they put the effort for that gear, you didnt xd so its not luck, they worked for their gear, you just refuse to.

It is luck when they can find lasting partners to climb the ranks with and I can't.

I still haven't gotten a single satisfactory answer on this; what place do I have in the game if I can't progress in random BGs? Getting sent to the graveyard constantly by geared enemy faction and getting yelled at by my own for being undergeared and taking a slot. How am I supposed to find that fun?
- - - Updated - - -

you gain experience by losing because afterwards you should be figuring out what went wrong.

you can queue up with lfg idiots and get 2.1 no voice in like 30 or 40 wins coz mmr is so high, getting 1600 in rbg is legit like getting 1200 in arena, maybe even less.

I haven't tried to do rated PvP since MoP. Not interested in dealing with the toxicity, the anxiety, and constant abandonment anymore. It has always worked out until now. What was wrong with solo random BGing being a viable form of progression?

[VooDsXo]

Not when your battlegrounds/warmode is full of the folks lucky enough to do rated PvP/raids/M+ and will just stomp you.

So people who do more have more is what you're arguing against?

[Tadkins]

So people who do more have more is what you're arguing against?

I still haven't gotten a single satisfactory answer on this; what place do I have in the game if I can't progress in random BGs? Getting sent to the graveyard constantly by geared enemy faction and getting yelled at by my own for being undergeared and taking a slot. How am I supposed to find that fun?

[Trend]

I still haven't gotten a single satisfactory answer on this; what place do I have in the game if I can't progress in random BGs? Getting sent to the graveyard constantly by geared enemy faction and getting yelled at by my own for being undergeared and taking a slot. How am I supposed to find that fun?

I do random BG's on my undergeared alts and I have fun. Am I wrong? Or can you accept that fun is subjective and if you're not having it, maybe it's you and not the game. They're never going to make everyone happy. I can see how someone who doesn't want to put effort in wants PvP to be templated and for gear not to matter at all. But when they've done that in the past there have been other problems (such as it not having a core MMO aspect any more) and other people complain.

You don't need to like it or have fun. Just do something else with your time.

[Jujudrood]

To OP:
If your choice of content is pure random BG and not doing any coordinated stuff (rated BG/arena, M+, Raid), then your gearing path is to cap everything at 200.
That's your chosen level of content, so you either accept that your cap is there (and under others) or you partake in higher content for better rewards.
You can always buy some BOEs if you want to push some stats up a little, but otherwise, that's how that works; 200 is the limit so aim for that and, once you hit it, you are done until next patch (gearing, anyway. you can still play for fun).

To people who think it's unfair:
It's not; other people have done higher level of content and have been rewarded for it.
Now, getting into a random BG thinking you'll just have some fun and getting roflstomped by a 5man in 220+ gear sucks, sure
There could be a way to fix that, if Blizz was so inclined, by making random BGs bracketed by ilevel (eg: 185-195, 195-205, 205-215, 215-225, 226+) so that like-geared people always get matched, but that would probably turn the queue into a pain just to get into a group.
But this way, if you are fully 200, you won't get rolled by a premade as badly (though it would still happen, maybe just not as quick since they are similarly geared).

The simple fact is, if you want to only play certain content, and that content is on the lower end, expect lower end rewards as a result.
If you want higher rewards, play higher content.
You can't buy a $1 scratch off lottery ticket and expect to win the mega millions (that was just a midwest USA thing to say...).

[Argorwal]

I still haven't gotten a single satisfactory answer on this; what place do I have in the game if I can't progress in random BGs? Getting sent to the graveyard constantly by geared enemy faction and getting yelled at by my own for being undergeared and taking a slot. How am I supposed to find that fun?

I’m not sure what you are looking for in a fan site.

If you aren’t having fun you should quit and put your reason to Blizzard not us.

PvP gearing this time around is more similar to TBC-Cata with needing to do rated and some rating requirements.

[Huntermyth]

there is a side dilemma here. let me explain :

if you don't have good gear for pvp, you will never have good gear for pvp. sounds stupid right ? but this is the awful truth. i struggled a lot between 1.2k and 1.6k just because of this simple reason. i have no in game friends so my only option is lfg and we all know that lfg is bad, to say the least. if you buy a boost and say, get challenger gear, you will get a higher overall rating than your normal max just because of the vers difference. you may climb back to 1.6k in time just because you already did once and got the gear from that said rank. else, you will face many boosters and their newborn keyboard turner 22k hp masters.

i just want that fuckin vicious fox yet i dont think i will find that patience or remain sane until the very end.

every other game is a 22k hp healer and a 41k hp frost dk or something similar and blizzard doesn't care. i really don't know what to do.

#soloQ

[Tadkins]

I’m not sure what you are looking for in a fan site.

If you aren’t having fun you should quit and put your reason to Blizzard not us.

PvP gearing this time around is more similar to TBC-Cata with needing to do rated and some rating requirements.

I already have, I've spoken with a letter to Blizzard and I've spoken with my dollars. There's a reason I post here and on Reddit, because my WoW account can't post on the official forums as it is currently inactive.

There is a big difference in the PvP gearing back then; resilience. Honor gear was for the most part very good and only the most champion level PvPers could really just flat-out stomp a person. And just being good at PvE didn't give much of an edge; my honor geared scrub rogue late BC could take on even folks in Sunwell raiding gear. I wish we had that over what we had now.

I'm just genuinely trying to figure out the reasoning with some of these folks. "They worked for the gear so they deserve to stomp noobs". Well fine, but what fun are the "noobs" supposed to find in this game nowadays? Where is our place in the game today? We're not all pain loving masochists who love the sight of the graveyard, it's not a lot to ask for a chance at fighting back.

[JessicaJones]

I still haven't gotten a single satisfactory answer on this; what place do I have in the game if I can't progress in random BGs? Getting sent to the graveyard constantly by geared enemy faction and getting yelled at by my own for being undergeared and taking a slot. How am I supposed to find that fun?

you are progressing in bgs? you get conquest for every win, eventually you will get full conq gear.

Your reward is proportional to the effort/ability required to do the content - doing the very bare minimum of random battle grounds awards you with item level 200 gear after 10-20 wins depending on daily/weekly bonus etc.

[Tadkins]

you are progressing in bgs? you get conquest for every win, eventually you will get full conq gear.

Your reward is proportional to the effort/ability required to do the content - doing the very bare minimum of random battle grounds awards you with item level 200 gear after 10-20 wins depending on daily/weekly bonus etc.

Which only gets me stomped by everyone else doing rated PvP/M+/raiding. If 200 gear is all I can hope for, and I'm surrounded by folks in 220+, then how am I going to expect to be able to have fun if the best I can hope for is staring at the graveyard all game?

Still not getting an answer to that question.

For the record, I fail to see how doing 20+ hours of random battlegrounds equals "not putting in any effort". Is effort only allowed to count when it's with a premade group?