So what where the "nerfs" to WW? Or "bugs fixed, damage ruined"?

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I got my WW Monk to 60 a couple of days ago and I'm on the gear grind, but after reading and re-reading the patch notes, I cannot discern what the actual "nerfs" were.


Or if these intentional fixes to unintentional bugs that made WW do a shit ton of damage were in fact the nerfs?

[Pandragon]

They were bug fixes that also resulted in slightly lower damage. But people like to blow things out of proportion.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I got my WW Monk to 60 a couple of days ago and I'm on the gear grind, but after reading and re-reading the patch notes, I cannot discern what the actual "nerfs" were.


Or if these intentional fixes to unintentional bugs that made WW do a shit ton of damage were in fact the nerfs?

WW is more bug than spec. They only fixed the bugs which helped and didn't touch the ones which hinder. Also similarly performing specs weren't touched.

[ztn]

... But people like to blow things out of proportion.

9.0 top2 melee
9.0.5 by far worst class in game

it need to have brain cancer thrashtalking about 'blow things out of proportion' when midtier class from one of the top become garbage...

[Calfredd]

it need to have brain cancer thrashtalking about 'blow things out of proportion' when midtier class from one of the top become garbage...

Remember when you made that thread complaining about how leather melee was awful after the patch? Turns out there's only 2 non-leather melee above Outlaw and Feral is right under Unholy (not a real spec though /s) and only 2 leather specs are at the bottom. Poor Survival though.

[deenman]

oh wow warrior isnt dead last anymore?in fact 3 classes are under it now with monk hunter and dh?

hunter is proly the most sad here,atleast dh and monk have other roles

[ztn]

oh wow warrior isnt dead last anymore?in fact 3 classes are under it now with monk hunter and dh?

hunter is proly the most sad here,atleast dh and monk have other roles

hunter have great mobility and rdd so it's not dead. while monk+dh is pure garbage dead classes... being melee with 1 dps spec that do 0 damage is a joke...

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Holy hell that is a steep drop.

[Pandragon]

9.0 top2 melee
9.0.5 by far worst class in game

it need to have brain cancer thrashtalking about 'blow things out of proportion' when midtier class from one of the top become garbage...

And look at the amount of logs in 9.0.5 compared to 9.0. Almost half of WW playerbase left cause of the changes cause they were FOTM players, plus a lot of monks who don't know how to play now from the rotation changes during cds and what not. For those of us who know what we are doing, we are still top 5 in damage in our raids. My guild is progressing on Mythic Council and I'm generally top 3 dps until the boomkin pad begins.

The "nerfs" are not as bad as you doomsayers are saying it is. The WCL numbers are irrelevant, especially in the first week of the patch.

[Baconeggcheese]

Holy hell that is a steep drop.

There were a couple of mechanics that have existed for years that people are viewing as "bugs" when its more like blizzard put them in to fix other issues and then left them there until now for some reason.

The two main "bugs" in question here are:

When you have storm earth and fire up, your clones will continue channeling fist of fury while still copying whatever abilities you cast. This has existed since WoD to fix a different issue but with the introduction of the covenant ability weapons of order its actually more damage to cancel fists of fury than it is to channel it during weapons of order since your clones would continue channeling their fists of fury (so 90% of the dmg) while also using everything else you pressed.

I'm guessing blizzard didn't like that this was now the correct way to play, so they "fixed" it. Though its still more DPS to cast it just to cancel it for whirling dragon punch unless you're above 50% haste. This hurts our burst, and is a mostly ST dps loss to a spec that was already mid pack ST.


Spinning crane kick has that thing where you hit new targets it gives you a buff, the "bug" was that when you had storm eath and fire out the clones would also give you a stack, meaning you could get 5-6 stacks on 2 targets + another bug existed where if the clones gave you the stacks it would act like any other stack in the game and as long as you refreshed it you would maintain all the stacks.

You couple these "bugs" with the new dance of chi'ji talent and calculated strikes and it gave us our strong cleave niche.

They "fixed" that entire interaction which made it so the clones don't give you stacks on the same target anymore and the individual stacks fall off after 15 seconds so our cleave took a fairly significant hit.


They did fix 2 negative bugs though, dance of chi'ji was giving a flat amount of damage instead of 200% like the tool tip reads which they fixed to properly give 200% damage which is a nice buff at higher gear levels. They also fixed fist of fury only hitting 5 targets instead of 6 like its supposed to so that's a smaller buff in those situations.

Since we were already mid pack single target and our niche was pretty much burst and sustained cleave / aoe we lost our niche. We aren't as bad as those statistics are showing (looking at overall statistics is a god awful way of trying to figure out how good a spec is doing) but we definitely took a hit and there isn't really any reason to bring a WW now over other specs.


Look at individual bosses and swap back and forth between 9.0 and 9.0.5 if you want a better picture of the performance difference. Also never leave it at "all percentiles", swap it to at least 75th percentile.

The two fights that were really carrying the spec were the 2 most important fights in the raid, generals and sire. Those were also the 2 fights we took the biggest hits on, hence the overall drop in score. We were never topping that chart on ST fights like shriekwing.

[Mantok]

so what the OP is saying is he thought he was rerolling a FOTM char, only to find out it got nerfed/"fixed"

lol boo-hoo

[KOUNTERPARTS]

so what the OP is saying is he thought he was rerolling a FOTM char, only to find out it got nerfed/"fixed"

lol boo-hoo

Ouch. You unironically construe a post asking for explanation on tuning, as somehow take it as something else entirely.
Did you even make it through the first 4 words of the thread title?
Embarrassing.


"I didn't read the post, and just made a knee jerk reply"
--Mantok, 2021

--snip--

Thank you for the in-depth reply. I wasn't even aware of FoF not hitting its maximum targets bug. The cancelling of FoF in order to get the most optimal damage during Weapons of Order + SOaF seems a little lame as a play style but that does suck it makes WW take such a massive hit in damage as you describe.

[Baconeggcheese]

Thank you for the in-depth reply. I wasn't even aware of FoF not hitting its maximum targets bug. The cancelling of FoF in order to get the most optimal damage during Weapons of Order + SOaF seems a little lame as a play style but that does suck it makes WW take such a massive hit in damage as you describe.

last I checked it was only around 5%ish nerf ST which isn't the end of the world, it does suck though because we weren't an amazing ST spec in the first place.

The bigger hit is the changes to spinning crane kick, which hurts our aoe a lot more. Its not completely gutted and we can still do ok damage, its just not nearly as strong as it was.

To put it another way, I haven't felt the need to jump ship yet and I sort of FOTM rerolled to this spec. I really enjoyed the spec before but I couldn't justify playing it with how poorly it was doing at the end of BFA not knowing where it would end up come SL. I did end up swapping over to it because of how well it was doing, so this sucks but again its not enough to make me jump ship quite yet.

[Argorwal]

Touch of Death now benefits from mastery which is pretty nice.

[evertonbelmontt]

There were a couple of mechanics that have existed for years that people are viewing as "bugs" when its more like blizzard put them in to fix other issues and then left them there until now for some reason.

The two main "bugs" in question here are:

When you have storm earth and fire up, your clones will continue channeling fist of fury while still copying whatever abilities you cast. This has existed since WoD to fix a different issue but with the introduction of the covenant ability weapons of order its actually more damage to cancel fists of fury than it is to channel it during weapons of order since your clones would continue channeling their fists of fury (so 90% of the dmg) while also using everything else you pressed.

I'm guessing blizzard didn't like that this was now the correct way to play, so they "fixed" it. Though its still more DPS to cast it just to cancel it for whirling dragon punch unless you're above 50% haste. This hurts our burst, and is a mostly ST dps loss to a spec that was already mid pack ST.


Spinning crane kick has that thing where you hit new targets it gives you a buff, the "bug" was that when you had storm eath and fire out the clones would also give you a stack, meaning you could get 5-6 stacks on 2 targets + another bug existed where if the clones gave you the stacks it would act like any other stack in the game and as long as you refreshed it you would maintain all the stacks.

You couple these "bugs" with the new dance of chi'ji talent and calculated strikes and it gave us our strong cleave niche.

They "fixed" that entire interaction which made it so the clones don't give you stacks on the same target anymore and the individual stacks fall off after 15 seconds so our cleave took a fairly significant hit.


They did fix 2 negative bugs though, dance of chi'ji was giving a flat amount of damage instead of 200% like the tool tip reads which they fixed to properly give 200% damage which is a nice buff at higher gear levels. They also fixed fist of fury only hitting 5 targets instead of 6 like its supposed to so that's a smaller buff in those situations.

Since we were already mid pack single target and our niche was pretty much burst and sustained cleave / aoe we lost our niche. We aren't as bad as those statistics are showing (looking at overall statistics is a god awful way of trying to figure out how good a spec is doing) but we definitely took a hit and there isn't really any reason to bring a WW now over other specs.


Look at individual bosses and swap back and forth between 9.0 and 9.0.5 if you want a better picture of the performance difference. Also never leave it at "all percentiles", swap it to at least 75th percentile.

The two fights that were really carrying the spec were the 2 most important fights in the raid, generals and sire. Those were also the 2 fights we took the biggest hits on, hence the overall drop in score. We were never topping that chart on ST fights like shriekwing.

Wtf. I was reading this and I was about to reply saying how good of a response it was and then the OP quoted you and I saw your name. Expected.

Rerolled from warlock or just an alt?

[Baconeggcheese]

Rerolled from warlock or just an alt?

Rerolled, I absolutely hate what they did with warlock from legion onwards. To the point where I was burning out by the end of legion and BFA made me quit the game by the time I finished Uldir. Came back for SL and knew I had to pick a new class that didn't come with the baggage of having been something I used to enjoy. Had a new main every week for the first 3 weeks of SL until I settled on this.

[Inay]

Regarding the bug fixes and new ones emerging have anyone else noticed that sometimes when you use SEF you will stay on the clone form after the ability ends. I don't know if this is just a visual bug or does it actually keep the reduced damage also?

[Baconeggcheese]

Regarding the bug fixes and new ones emerging have anyone else noticed that sometimes when you use SEF you will stay on the clone form after the ability ends. I don't know if this is just a visual bug or does it actually keep the reduced damage also?

If you're doing arenas its an ancient bug that if you're in SEF when the arena ends it'll bug out and leave you with that appearance. You can just cast it again once you're outside or take off the gear and put it back on. Doubt its getting fixed any time soon as its so inconsequential.

I just think of it as the "robe of victory"

[Kyranna]

Since we were already mid pack single target and our niche was pretty much burst and sustained cleave / aoe we lost our niche. We aren't as bad as those statistics are showing (looking at overall statistics is a god awful way of trying to figure out how good a spec is doing) but we definitely took a hit and there isn't really any reason to bring a WW now over other specs.

Agree with everything you said, but to counter this only point, I'd say Mystic Touch is still a good reason, because BrM and MW are not very meta in this period. For farming raids, then bring whatever, but +5% physical damage is always a good reason during progression.
I play 4 tanks on rotation and BrM is certainly decent, but those who are on Mythic progression probably would pick a different class, so yeah WW has his spot reserved.

[Subrias]

And look at the amount of logs in 9.0.5 compared to 9.0. Almost half of WW playerbase left cause of the changes cause they were FOTM players, plus a lot of monks who don't know how to play now from the rotation changes during cds and what not.

Teach me senpai!

also....
https://i.imgur.com/YTp38FX.png
https://i.imgur.com/fFurL1c.png

17k parses is apparently a small number? lookst to be somewhat higher than the middle.

- - - Updated - - -

last I checked it was only around 5%ish nerf ST which isn't the end of the world, it does suck though because we weren't an amazing ST spec in the first place.

The bigger hit is the changes to spinning crane kick, which hurts our aoe a lot more. Its not completely gutted and we can still do ok damage, its just not nearly as strong as it was.

To put it another way, I haven't felt the need to jump ship yet and I sort of FOTM rerolled to this spec. I really enjoyed the spec before but I couldn't justify playing it with how poorly it was doing at the end of BFA not knowing where it would end up come SL. I did end up swapping over to it because of how well it was doing, so this sucks but again its not enough to make me jump ship quite yet.

I always find this thought process intriguing. a 5% nerf.. when doing 5k dps is a dps loss of 250 dps. 250 dps over a 6 minute fight is 90k damage. 90k @5k dps is 18 seconds worth of damage. so in essence you just lost 18 seconds worth of damage. also.. a lot of the other melee classes got 5% damage flat out increases and are now doing 5 to 10% more dps than windwalker overall.

- - - Updated - - -

Touch of Death now benefits from mastery which is pretty nice.

it is, but most of the time you really only use it 2 times a fight and thats if there are multiple targets. the mastery only really added about 10k dmg to it for me so 20k extra dmg where as we likely lost more like 70-80k for average players.

inb4 someone says stop playing the fotm class, im not playing it because its fotm. i actually rerolled from prot paladin to this because we had enough tanks, i suck at healing, and we didnt have a single monk in our guild.