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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    You say that, but I played back then, and for every expansion after. I never saw the rampant exclusion of people based on some "meta" like we do today. Not even fucking close. Not outside of topend raiding anyway.
    So then why was gear score a thing in WotLK? People always carried about that stuff and 12 years later it has grown in awareness. Some of it was because of systems Blizzard introduced like reforging where most people required an addon or external site to tell them what the best stats to change were after hitting hit cap. The player reliance on tools like that is a natural evolution.

    Player awareness, skill, and expectations change a lot over years. Even if WoW stayed exactly the same the expectations of gamers as a whole has changed. Do a lot rely on the meta more then they should? Sure. It isn't toxic or elitism to want people to play well but people can certainly take that concept to extremes which makes it toxic.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I'm playing at a much lower level then you, but I see it in m+ too. The example I always reference is the pull with the Shards of Halkias and the three casters in HOA. The collector spawns extra adds so he has to be interrupted, and the two casters cast "wicked bolt" which chunks off about 25% of a tank's health if it's not interrupted. That's just one of the 20 odd pulls, and not nearly the hardest pull, in one of the easier dungeons, and it requires coordinating 3 interrupts. Sure, not too hard to do in a coordinated group, but it's hard to plan all that out if you're in a random pug, so pugs wipe all the time on that pull. Eliminating just one of those interrupts (or substantially nerfing the bolt damage) would not really impact the MDI level players at all because they interrupt everything, but it would suddenly make the dungeon a lot less punishing on pugs.
    You do know you dont have to pull all 4 of em right? You can just grab those 2 casters with sthing else if your group has issues. If after the first try on that pack you noticed that 3 interrupts are impossible for your group, why the hell would you force the same pull again?

  3. #183
    Mechagnome sunxsera's Avatar
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    Had the same problem with my ~1.6k rio Havoc - and DHs are not even bad in M+.
    My 1.1k Hunter got invites a lot faster.

    Metagameplay

    Warlocks are fine though.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Because prior to mythic+ dungeon content was a joke and mostly run for a week or 2 before raids or smashed for badges/valor MHz

    Raiding was the “real” PvE end game.

    Now dungeons are an alternative progression and gearing system providing gear that rivals, and in some slots are better, than the top raid gear. So as the difficulty rises, people need to be better to meet the difficulty and when you’re pugging randoms with no idea how good they are it’s a recipe for failing miserably without a good screening tool.

    You could argue the game was better when dungeons were regulated to easy mode status for badge farm, and maybe to some it was, but to others having a dungeon based alternative progression system is amazing.
    Again, sigh, dungeons don't need a timer to be hard. Case in point, release Cata heroics.

    I don't know, I guess i'm just an old mmo boomer yelling at clouds. Everything has become so corrupted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So then why was gear score a thing in WotLK? People always carried about that stuff and 12 years later it has grown in awareness. Some of it was because of systems Blizzard introduced like reforging where most people required an addon or external site to tell them what the best stats to change were after hitting hit cap. The player reliance on tools like that is a natural evolution.

    Player awareness, skill, and expectations change a lot over years. Even if WoW stayed exactly the same the expectations of gamers as a whole has changed. Do a lot rely on the meta more then they should? Sure. It isn't toxic or elitism to want people to play well but people can certainly take that concept to extremes which makes it toxic.
    You answered your own question in your first sentence. Now players who have no business being toxic elitist cunts, and weren't back in the day, now are.

    It's not toxic to want people to play well, true. What IS toxic is expecting perfection from everyone or you start berating them. What IS toxic is half of specs being passed over like they're memes and can't do the content, which is objectively false.

    Idk, I give up discussing this on this forum. I'm just an mmo boomer with a different idea about how the game should be. And it's certainly not this toxic hellhole that currently exists.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinary View Post
    You do know you dont have to pull all 4 of em right? You can just grab those 2 casters with sthing else if your group has issues. If after the first try on that pack you noticed that 3 interrupts are impossible for your group, why the hell would you force the same pull again?
    Yup, highly aware. But if you pull the whole dungeon like that you won't make the timer. There was actually a thread about how hard HOA is to time for pug groups on here a few days ago. You have to take some chances, whether it's pulling 3 packs at start, pulling a couple packs near stairs, etc. Every pull has challenges like this, I'm not picking this one because it's uniquely difficult, more so it's something that +15 groups do regularly that pug groups fail at and I think it does a good job of illustrating the difference between the group types.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-03-15 at 06:43 AM.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Again, sigh, dungeons don't need a timer to be hard. Case in point, release Cata heroics. I don't know, I guess i'm just an old mmo boomer yelling at clouds. Everything has become so corrupted.
    Cataclysm heroics at release were not hard if you were a skilled player though. Harder then a heroic should be? Sure. Mythic+ with out a timer isn't a challenge though. It is why you hear stories of groups doing an untimed run down a player. And you hear the odd story of a player that left getting loot hours later. The timer is what creates a challenge to otherwise normal content.

    It isn't corruption. Information and ways to improve are all around us now so a general expectation of performance has increased. The internet as a whole is a lot different then it was years ago.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    What IS toxic is half of specs being passed over like they're memes and can't do the content, which is objectively false.
    You mean not being invited to a key cause they invited another player is considered toxicity? its always hilarious to read this argument xd i guess some people really are entitled enough that they think they deserve quick invites to any key they sign up for.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Cataclysm heroics at release were not hard if you were a skilled player though. Harder then a heroic should be? Sure. Mythic+ with out a timer isn't a challenge though. It is why you hear stories of groups doing an untimed run down a player. And you hear the odd story of a player that left getting loot hours later. The timer is what creates a challenge to otherwise normal content.

    It isn't corruption. Information and ways to improve are all around us now so a general expectation of performance has increased. The internet as a whole is a lot different then it was years ago.
    Explaining why the corruption is there doesn't make it any less corrupt.

  9. #189
    Consider it a blessing that you're not wasting time doing m+.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    You mean not being invited to a key cause they invited another player is considered toxicity? its always hilarious to read this argument xd i guess some people really are entitled enough that they think they deserve quick invites to any key they sign up for.
    I said no such thing about entitlement to invites. I merely pointed out the fact that half of specs are treated as a meme, despite being fully capable of clearing the content. Maybe toxic isn't the right word for that, but it's not ok.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    You answered your own question in your first sentence. Now players who have no business being toxic elitist cunts, and weren't back in the day, now are.
    Given your escalation of language I'm going to guess you are closer to toxic then you seem to want to acknowledge. And that may be the problem in your view. The same type of player that pretend to be elite back then is the same type that would be now. Nothing has changed on that front. Idiots have and always will be idiots. You may just encounter more of them due to how cross-realm everything is.

    Not everyone berates players that are not perfect. Not everyone passes over poor performing specs. But if everything else is equal why wouldn't someone take a spec that performs better? That isn't being elite or toxic it is simply being smart about your group and time. Usually though you only see that the higher you get in M+ and raiding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Explaining why the corruption is there doesn't make it any less corrupt.
    Creating an illusion in your mind also doesn't make it real.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Given your escalation of language I'm going to guess you are closer to toxic then you seem to want to acknowledge. And that may be the problem in your view. The same type of player that pretend to be elite back then is the same type that would be now. Nothing has changed on that front. Idiots have and always will be idiots. You may just encounter more of them due to how cross-realm everything is.

    Not everyone berates players that are not perfect. Not everyone passes over poor performing specs. But if everything else is equal why wouldn't someone take a spec that performs better? That isn't being elite or toxic it is simply being smart about your group and time. Usually though you only see that the higher you get in M+ and raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Creating an illusion in your mind also doesn't make it real.
    Ya, i'm the toxic one for pointing out a very real problem. Christ. This forum has really nosedived.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    I said no such thing about entitlement to invites. I merely pointed out the fact that half of specs are treated as a meme, despite being fully capable of clearing the content. Maybe toxic isn't the right word for that, but it's not ok.
    I mean, some specs are objectively worse than others at X content, and this shows in actual data thats all over the place, pugs take this and make their decision on who to invite, if you have 2 players queued for your key, both are 1700 raider.io, one is a fire mage and the other is a feral druid, who gets invited?

  14. #194
    Okay but wait...did you buy your 1.5? Or do you have a premade group you got 1.5 with? How did you get 1.5 if you don't get into groups?

    Maybe you solo'd 1.5k IO? Is this a "warlock is busted needs a nerf" thread?
    SorryNotSorry

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    I mean, some specs are objectively worse than others at X content, and this shows in actual data thats all over the place, pugs take this and make their decision on who to invite, if you have 2 players queued for your key, both are 1700 raider.io, one is a fire mage and the other is a feral druid, who gets invited?
    Ya, meta spec X will clear a key 20 seconds faster than non-meta spec Z, so let's just never bring Z. That is the current reality.

    At least in raids bringing non-meta specs makes sense to some degree since if you brought all of the same classes, people would struggle to get geared.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Ya, meta spec X will clear a key 20 seconds faster than non-meta spec Z, so let's just never bring Z. That is the current reality.
    Not really the thought process used, they are gonna invite the fire mage cause its kit is literally tailored for m+, and there are better chances with the fire mage than with the feral druid, thats all there is to it, unless they bother checking their logs, which is a great tool but thats not the reality, the reality is check io to filter the "potentially" bad players, then check meta specs, all of this is to reduce your chances of inviting a bad player.

    Does this mean that the feral druid is bad? not at all, he could be amazing, but its up to the average pug leader to decide if he takes its chances or not, and the only one who can change this is blizz, not the community.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Ya, i'm the toxic one for pointing out a very real problem. Christ. This forum has really nosedived.
    Exaggerating to play a victim is a sign of toxicity. I never said you might be a little bit toxic for saying there is a problem but for the use of your foul language.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    At least in raids bringing non-meta specs makes sense to some degree since if you brought all of the same classes, people would struggle to get geared.
    Do you know what personal loot is? Have you actually played recently? Bring the player, not the class is a great mentality to have but is never as simple in execution. Because balance is never as equal as it should be. And in any level of content a guild/group might need that performance boost to succeed. Even raid leaders need to factor the performance of a spec when looking at the success of the raid team. Sometimes even a small difference can mean success or failure.

    That extra "20 seconds" as you say can really help with adds or taking pressure off healers, or whatever other mechanic there is.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-03-15 at 06:48 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Not really the thought process used, they are gonna invite the fire mage cause its kit is literally tailored for m+, and there are better chances with the fire mage than with the feral druid, thats all there is to it, unless they bother checking their logs, which is a great tool but thats not the reality, the reality is check io to filter the "potentially" bad players, then check meta specs, all of this is to reduce your chances of inviting a bad player.

    Does this mean that the feral druid is bad? not at all, he could be amazing, but its up to the average pug leader to decide if he takes its chances or not, and the only one who can change this is blizz, not the community.
    From what I've noticed around the 1.5-1.6k io range at least there is so much variance in player skill right now that the non-meta specs can easily beat the meta specs in DPS and there is not much difference in utility either depending on the group composition (for example I would invite the Feral over the Mage in your example if my group had a Resto shaman/MM hunter and a Monk or Warrior DPS or Tank in it.). I have seen Ferals, Fury warriors and Survival hunters competing or outright beating Fire mages and MM hunters etc. (doing 6.5-7k overall in +15-17s depending on dungeon, which is more than enough).

    The actually well performing meta DPS players (like Fire mages and Boomkins) probably have on average higher rating right now because they have had an easier time getting into groups earlier on, and the leftover players of those specs are right now around the 1.5k range. I guess you could argue that you chances of timing a key would be better 'on average' if you picked a meta DPS spec over a non-meta one even in 15s, but I think that it would still be pretty unreliable. In my opinion the difference in spec performance truly starts to matter at keystone levels 20 and up where the skill variance between players is also smaller, and meta DPS specs routinely beat the rest in almost all areas.
    Last edited by Mamushi; 2021-03-15 at 07:12 AM.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Again, sigh, dungeons don't need a timer to be hard. Case in point, release Cata heroics.

    I don't know, I guess i'm just an old mmo boomer yelling at clouds. Everything has become so corrupted.
    They do, because otherwise you just end up with degenerate gameplay like waiting for CDs/Lust for every pull once you reach a high enough level.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Ya, meta spec X will clear a key 20 seconds faster than non-meta spec Z, so let's just never bring Z. That is the current reality.

    At least in raids bringing non-meta specs makes sense to some degree since if you brought all of the same classes, people would struggle to get geared.
    Quite literally the opposite of that is true. The ideal raid comp in terms of gearing quickly is 20x the same class(or 30x in heroic, which we've seen world first guilds get extremely close to, especially in BfA with viewer raids, and will likely see again next tier)
    Voidshuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Ya, i'm the toxic one for pointing out a very real problem. Christ. This forum has really nosedived.
    What problem are you pointing out exactly though? That your class doesn't get invited or that you are not picked pver the 3-6 dozen other dps who apply to these keys? I am forced to run my own keys as a bm hunter, in the 12-14 range, and there's like 50 dps to choose from when i do, half of them having well over 220 item level and loads of experience.
    The problem isn't you or your class, it's the incredibly cutthroat competition you face as a dps.

    As for my tanks... usually apply and get invite, i'd say 9/10 times. But there's a huge excess of overgeared dps and every time you que you're in a pool of 50-100 other people competing for 2-3 slots.

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