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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    lack of dps is pretty much never the reason for a failed run, especially on those levels. You can easily time keys with mouth drooling half brain afk players, as long as the route is good and the mechanics are done properly. Sure more dps is always nice because it gives you more leeway for whenever mistakes happen and with less dps fights are longer and more mistakes can happen during longer fights, so it makes it harder, sure. But in the end it's the mistakes that break the key, not the low dps. If the tank dies because he didn't use a defensive for a hard hitting boss ability, then it's not the fault of the dps who could've done more damage and kill the boss before he used that ability.

    Way too many people can only beat dungeons if they can burst a boss down before that boss does any of their abilities because those players never actually learned that boss. All they can do is pew pew.
    I think your point of view is valid but not complete: a lack of dps is clearly more punishing on M+ SL than on Legion or BfA. As a healer, I can tell you that a low dps is clearly problematic this week with grievous. Low dps make prideful mobs exponentially harder. And some bosses become significantly harder the longer they live (more strain on the healer, bosses making it harder to move/dodge abilities because they inundate the floor with aoes like Hakkar or the first two bosses on HoA). Tredova is also a good example of a fight being more and more hectic and difficult the longer it stays alive. Even though the bosses don't have a clear enrage, some of them have more or less a sort of soft enrage and their difficulty doesn't scale linearly with time.

    I healed a +15 HoA yesterday with the 3 dps between 4,3k and 3,9k dps. We wouldn't have timed it even with perfect play and zero mechanical mistakes. And the day before I timed a +15 SoA tyrannical with every dps at 4,8-5k. Even though the dps requirements are not considerable, at some point a too low dps becomes clearly detrimental and snowballs easily.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2021-03-18 at 12:41 PM.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    From my experience there is one dungeon in Shlands in which lack of DPS can fail you a run - De Other Side.
    Couple of times when running it in 12-15 range we barely timed it when noone actually died (it was before adding those 3 extra minutes tho, so nowdays it's probably better)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    lack of dps is pretty much never the reason for a failed run, especially on those levels. You can easily time keys with mouth drooling half brain afk players, as long as the route is good and the mechanics are done properly. Sure more dps is always nice because it gives you more leeway for whenever mistakes happen and with less dps fights are longer and more mistakes can happen during longer fights, so it makes it harder, sure. But in the end it's the mistakes that break the key, not the low dps. If the tank dies because he didn't use a defensive for a hard hitting boss ability, then it's not the fault of the dps who could've done more damage and kill the boss before he used that ability.

    Way too many people can only beat dungeons if they can burst a boss down before that boss does any of their abilities because those players never actually learned that boss. All they can do is pew pew.
    This is not wholly true - at least on Tyrannical. Low DPS is absolutely a reason ton of 13-14s fail. You can have a "perfect run" but things simply don't die fast enough to clear the timer. Just people from 10s thinking that 50% more HP on mobs makes little difference in how much damage they have to do...

    That being said, it's pretty easy to get 220s to carry a bad - and they can usually do enough to make up for it (I had one 14 with a dps at 3.5k and one at 2.9 and a singular DK at 6.5k, which averages out to 4300 dps overall). DPS have a lot of other people (in fact, Tank, Healer, and 2 other DPS) to make up for their lack of DPS.

    Yes, there are cascading effects of low dps - and on tyrannical, you might notice it on Stitchflesh, where you can absolutely see where dps not being able to kill abominations fast enough or stitchflesh resulting in 2-3 aboms at a time also known as a wipe. So yeah, most of the time it's lack of dps (or fail dps) or tank routes that fail a key; not that it isn't healers faults sometimes, but I don't typically worry about a healer going in except on certain affixes. I do worry about dps regardless of the affixes, although i usually end up with a tank that does some wonky Fresh-60 route and got invited because they were the only one in queue.


    ANYWHO. Each week it becomes harder and harder for people to get into groups, partially because of the introduction of valor right now, but also partially because you just can't keep up. If you didnt do a 14 last week, youre a 226 item behind. and then when ilvl comes around for the new week youre behind, and then nobody wants to invite you for the 14 because the people that did one last week is higher ilvl so you fall even more behind and then more behind etc etc. With alts starting at 197-200, and +5s expecting 210+ now (this i blame valor because these high ilvl are queueing for 2-5s), it just gets harder and harder to climb on anything.
    Last edited by kiramon; 2021-03-18 at 12:28 PM.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    lack of dps is pretty much never the reason for a failed run, especially on those levels. You can easily time keys with mouth drooling half brain afk players, as long as the route is good and the mechanics are done properly. Sure more dps is always nice because it gives you more leeway for whenever mistakes happen and with less dps fights are longer and more mistakes can happen during longer fights, so it makes it harder, sure. But in the end it's the mistakes that break the key, not the low dps. If the tank dies because he didn't use a defensive for a hard hitting boss ability, then it's not the fault of the dps who could've done more damage and kill the boss before he used that ability.

    Way too many people can only beat dungeons if they can burst a boss down before that boss does any of their abilities because those players never actually learned that boss. All they can do is pew pew.
    During forti weeks, bosses are rarely an issue. With pride and/or lust they just melt. Even if one dps dies, you can down them quite easily, it happens to me a hella LOT.

    BUT if packs don’t die fast enough, in the long run it becomes an issue, both with time wasted and healer suffering and having to rec after (more time wasted).

    Maybe I’ve been lucky up to now but I almost never had the sensation we were failing because of tank doing really weird things. Since it should be easier to pew pew properly than avoiding mechanics properly, I just don’t get why so many ppl just can’t pew pew.

    I’m not so sure about them being semi-afk doable, unless you vastly overgear them (but even in that case you must pay attention) and/or play with people who know what to do (that is the issue I described).

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    lack of dps is pretty much never the reason for a failed run, especially on those levels. You can easily time keys with mouth drooling half brain afk players, as long as the route is good and the mechanics are done properly. Sure more dps is always nice because it gives you more leeway for whenever mistakes happen and with less dps fights are longer and more mistakes can happen during longer fights, so it makes it harder, sure. But in the end it's the mistakes that break the key, not the low dps. If the tank dies because he didn't use a defensive for a hard hitting boss ability, then it's not the fault of the dps who could've done more damage and kill the boss before he used that ability.

    Way too many people can only beat dungeons if they can burst a boss down before that boss does any of their abilities because those players never actually learned that boss. All they can do is pew pew.
    I agree that mechanics are very important but as a dps myself and after pugging for a few days trying to hunt for phial, you cant just shift the blame completely on mechanics and ignore that dps doing less than 4k in dungeons of the 12-15 range is pathetic when they should be doing 6k-7k as a minimum depending on key by just pressing their abilities and cds, its actually amazing how they manage to do dps like this.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    So you barely timed it because tank was bad. You can't pull one pack at the time and have a fire mage in the group. Also you just can't pull one pack a the time and expect to "comfortably" time it.

    Frost mages are good on overall damage, very much comparable to fire mages up to moderate size pulls, you can see more and more of them playing on high rio. Only thing is that they are not as good for burst damage which is OP. It all mobs/bosses were same - frost would be best. But some targets need to die way faster than others or otherwise fights become much harder.
    and thats my point. because 99% of tanks who do 2-14 dungeons pull 1 pack at a time.

    yet they go for fire mages because "fire much op look at MDI scrub "

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by kiramon View Post
    This is not wholly true - at least on Tyrannical. Low DPS is absolutely a reason ton of 13-14s fail. You can have a "perfect run" but things simply don't die fast enough to clear the timer. Just people from 10s thinking that 50% more HP on mobs makes little difference in how much damage they have to do...

    That being said, it's pretty easy to get 220s to carry a bad - and they can usually do enough to make up for it (I had one 14 with a dps at 3.5k and one at 2.9 and a singular DK at 6.5k, which averages out to 4300 dps overall). DPS have a lot of other people (in fact, Tank, Healer, and 2 other DPS) to make up for their lack of DPS.

    Yes, there are cascading effects of low dps - and on tyrannical, you might notice it on Stitchflesh, where you can absolutely see where dps not being able to kill abominations fast enough or stitchflesh resulting in 2-3 aboms at a time also known as a wipe. So yeah, most of the time it's lack of dps (or fail dps) or tank routes that fail a key; not that it isn't healers faults sometimes, but I don't typically worry about a healer going in except on certain affixes. I do worry about dps regardless of the affixes, although i usually end up with a tank that does some wonky Fresh-60 route and got invited because they were the only one in queue.


    ANYWHO. Each week it becomes harder and harder for people to get into groups, partially because of the introduction of valor right now, but also partially because you just can't keep up. If you didnt do a 14 last week, youre a 226 item behind. and then when ilvl comes around for the new week youre behind, and then nobody wants to invite you for the 14 because the people that did one last week is higher ilvl so you fall even more behind and then more behind etc etc. With alts starting at 197-200, and +5s expecting 210+ now (this i blame valor because these high ilvl are queueing for 2-5s), it just gets harder and harder to climb on anything.
    I have never had a dungeon run where we played it down perfectly with no wipes and didn't make the timer in the end. Not a single time. When we fail the timer it's because of 1-2 wipes at some point in the dungeon.

    In tyrannical you gotta pull big against trash. That's why I said the route needs to be good as well. With a good route and people who do mechanics, you can easily time any dungeon on 10-14 with not much dps.

    The problem with bad groups is that everyone is bad. Tanks who don't know what to pull when. Healers who don't know when to do damage and when to heal. And dps players who don't know how to best use their cooldowns. Combine all three and you maybe end up with a group that doesn't time a key even though they didn't wipe. And here is the thing: I never encountered such a group because I am part of the group and I do my part to not fail the timer. I'm the tank who put in a lot of time and effort to learn what to pull when. So even if I don't have the best dps players in my group, the timer won't be an issue unless people mess up and die.

    Every single player in a 5 man group can carry the run in the 10-15 range as long as the rest of the group is not completely braindead. Every. Single. Player. The reason people miss the timer so hard, is not that the others are sooooo bad. It's because you are bad as well. Everyone should learn this lesson. We are all making mistakes and we could all be better. The low dps players are not the sole reason a 10-15 key depletes.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    From my experience there is one dungeon in Shlands in which lack of DPS can fail you a run - De Other Side.
    Couple of times when running it in 12-15 range we barely timed it when noone actually died (it was before adding those 3 extra minutes tho, so nowdays it's probably better)
    it happens everywhere. especially in this range because thats where you cant just not do mechanics on trash anymore on fortified . i had 1 run like this yesterday on my hunter - +12 Spires - we missed timer even though we didnt have even a single full wipe - we did have many deaths (16) solely due to griveus/spiteful but not 1 wipe and the main reason 3/4 of those deaths happen is to low dps on trash that people were doing.

    my conversation from today with someone in guild : he was complaining about missing timer on SD 12 by 10 seconds - and when i asked - did you use flask/pots/oils - ofc his answer was - lol no - well thats where those 10 seconds come from .

    truth is dungeons in 10-15 range are very very hard for average player - yet people think they are soooo easy because of trash itlv that drops there.

    its content dropping 203-207 itlv - it should be lol easy . ye it should - if it wasnt overtuned for gear its dropping.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    its content dropping 203-207 itlv - it should be lol easy . ye it should - if it wasnt overtuned for gear its dropping.
    Did you do any of the dungeons in the +15 range when they were actually overtuned? i assume you didnt cause the dungeons have gone through a gigantic wave of nerfs and they are just a shade of what they were back then, so saying they are overtuned atm is reaching kinda hard.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and thats my point. because 99% of tanks who do 2-14 dungeons pull 1 pack at a time.

    yet they go for fire mages because "fire much op look at MDI scrub "
    They pull one pack at the time because they don’t know how much the healer and the dps can keep up. If you multi pull and then group wipe because everyone takes tons of damage and/or the healer can’t keep up, it’s not tank’s fault.

    Dps just want to always be kept full life while being immobile and pressing their rotation buttons: it’s simply not possible, sorry.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Did you do any of the dungeons in the +15 range when they were actually overtuned? i assume you didnt cause the dungeons have gone through a gigantic wave of nerfs and they are just a shade of what they were back then, so saying they are overtuned atm is reaching kinda hard.
    He didn't say overtuned, he said overtuned for the gear it drops. Which is probably fair. I'd argue heroic raids, which also drop 210 gear, are easier than +15 dungeons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Mexico is already part of the USA so is Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalar View Post
    Shadow deserves nothing, the same as Fire Mages.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    I have never had a dungeon run where we played it down perfectly with no wipes and didn't make the timer in the end. Not a single time. When we fail the timer it's because of 1-2 wipes at some point in the dungeon.

    In tyrannical you gotta pull big against trash. That's why I said the route needs to be good as well. With a good route and people who do mechanics, you can easily time any dungeon on 10-14 with not much dps.

    The problem with bad groups is that everyone is bad. Tanks who don't know what to pull when. Healers who don't know when to do damage and when to heal. And dps players who don't know how to best use their cooldowns. Combine all three and you maybe end up with a group that doesn't time a key even though they didn't wipe. And here is the thing: I never encountered such a group because I am part of the group and I do my part to not fail the timer. I'm the tank who put in a lot of time and effort to learn what to pull when. So even if I don't have the best dps players in my group, the timer won't be an issue unless people mess up and die.

    Every single player in a 5 man group can carry the run in the 10-15 range as long as the rest of the group is not completely braindead. Every. Single. Player. The reason people miss the timer so hard, is not that the others are sooooo bad. It's because you are bad as well. Everyone should learn this lesson. We are all making mistakes and we could all be better. The low dps players are not the sole reason a 10-15 key depletes.
    Just to point out that at least in my 11-13 bracket, doing damage as a healer is out of question: not possible 9 times on 10 apart from a quick fire dot plus lava burst when it procs being an instant cast: people simply take too much damage EVERY SINGLE SECOND to allow healers to dps consistently.

    And no, no single player can compensate the group’s mistakes, unless he vastly outgears the M+ level. Can’t heal four people that constantly go from hero to zero every pull multiple times at pull, sorry.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    He didn't say overtuned, he said overtuned for the gear it drops. Which is probably fair. I'd argue heroic raids, which also drop 210 gear, are easier than +15 dungeons.
    A few bosses yeah they are definitely easier, some of them are harder than +15s, but not by much anyways. And its not like people got their early KSM in 220 gear, they all had to tackle +15s and clear them in time with some shitty 207-213 gear, and back then shit was overtuned, now? not by one bit, overtuned is a big word often used in a wrong way, like now.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    A few bosses yeah they are definitely easier, some of them are harder than +15s, but not by much anyways. And its not like people got their early KSM in 220 gear, they all had to tackle +15s and clear them in time with some shitty 207-213 gear, and back then shit was overtuned, now? not by one bit, overtuned is a big word often used in a wrong way, like now.
    They cleared 15 with shitty gear but also very probably with fixed groups plus voice chat and close to no pug. This “little” particular makes ALL the difference of the world, if you look also at when someone got his KSM.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Just to point out that at least in my 11-13 bracket, doing damage as a healer is out of question: not possible 9 times on 10 apart from a quick fire dot plus lava burst when it procs being an instant cast: people simply take too much damage EVERY SINGLE SECOND to allow healers to dps consistently.

    And no, no single player can compensate the group’s mistakes, unless he vastly outgears the M+ level. Can’t heal four people that constantly go from hero to zero every pull multiple times at pull, sorry.
    I said everyone can carry as long as the rest of the group isn't braindead, didn't I?

    There is a very simple solution to playing with better people:
    1. Make your own group.
    2. Don't just blindly invite players into your group
    3. Don't just blindly follow the MDI or raider.io meta

    You want to know a simple trick to significantly increase the quality of your groups? Invite non-meta classes into your group. Because you're not going to play in a way that makes the meta class shine and there is a good chance that that meta player is someone who is bad and just got carried to a decent rio score by being invited so much more than a non-meta player. If you're doing a +15, then invite an enhance shaman who did a +14 in time. That enhance will do some serious work. I can pretty much guarantee you that. Instead people invite a MM hunter and then wonder why nothing gets interrupted or purged or raging effects removed or why nothing gets stunned or slowed. Because your average MM hunter only knows pew pew.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    From my experience there is one dungeon in Shlands in which lack of DPS can fail you a run - De Other Side.
    Couple of times when running it in 12-15 range we barely timed it when noone actually died (it was before adding those 3 extra minutes tho, so nowdays it's probably better)
    Yep. DoS is a real speed run. DPS must be at least 5k overall per DPSer.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    A few bosses yeah they are definitely easier, some of them are harder than +15s, but not by much anyways. And its not like people got their early KSM in 220 gear, they all had to tackle +15s and clear them in time with some shitty 207-213 gear, and back then shit was overtuned, now? not by one bit, overtuned is a big word often used in a wrong way, like now.
    which people ? those people who now are doing like m+26 ? sure those did.

    but not your general playerbase. and sorry but content which drops 203-210 itlv should be tuned properly - not tuned for top 5% of playerbase. because it leads to disaster exodus of players.

    you gonna pretend you dont know what i mean - i mean groups where everyone is 215 + failing to time dungeons which drop 203 itlv .

    its like people who outgear hc raids failed repeatedly in normal raid.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    which people ? those people who now are doing like m+26 ? sure those did.

    but not your general playerbase. and sorry but content which drops 203-210 itlv should be tuned properly - not tuned for top 5% of playerbase. because it leads to disaster exodus of players.

    you gonna pretend you dont know what i mean - i mean groups where everyone is 215 + failing to time dungeons which drop 203 itlv .

    its like people who outgear hc raids failed repeatedly in normal raid.
    Dude you have a point.

    Still in not sure if it’s content that is overturned or ppl that is undertuned.

    Unfortunately whatever the reasons, runs just fail horribly XD. I’m not even sure that overgearing helps at this point because if ppl do 3,5k dps in 215 gear I don’t expect them to magically reach 5k if they get to 225.

  18. #418
    How did you get 1.5k io if you don’t get invited to groups?

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    which people ? those people who now are doing like m+26 ? sure those did.

    but not your general playerbase. and sorry but content which drops 203-210 itlv should be tuned properly - not tuned for top 5% of playerbase. because it leads to disaster exodus of players.

    you gonna pretend you dont know what i mean - i mean groups where everyone is 215 + failing to time dungeons which drop 203 itlv .

    its like people who outgear hc raids failed repeatedly in normal raid.
    You gotta take the vault into account too. If you're talking about content dropping 203 ilvl, that's ~+10. Assuming they've done it a few weeks, that's a few pieces of 220 loot they should've gotten.

    And honestly, if you're 215 ilvl failing in a +10, that's 100% a you problem. In a +10 the prideful mob gets deleted way before a 20 stack, prob under 10 stack on most groups. There is enough of a timer where u could full wipe 3+ times. And even on tyrannical, there is pretty much nothing that will 1 shot u, especially in 215 ilvl.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    You gotta take the vault into account too. If you're talking about content dropping 203 ilvl, that's ~+10. Assuming they've done it a few weeks, that's a few pieces of 220 loot they should've gotten.

    And honestly, if you're 215 ilvl failing in a +10, that's 100% a you problem. In a +10 the prideful mob gets deleted way before a 20 stack, prob under 10 stack on most groups. There is enough of a timer where u could full wipe 3+ times. And even on tyrannical, there is pretty much nothing that will 1 shot u, especially in 215 ilvl.
    That is not my experience in the slightest.

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