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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Who cares if it’s easier than the others? it’

    Its place in the game makes sense to me. It’s a very gradual drip of gear that’s designed to allow characters to keep improving and not hit a stone wall. For heroic guilds, it gives pretty meaningful gear upgrades, but it’s not so plentiful that their gear will match mythic raiders. I think having this available to heroic raiders, and doable by fairly casual groups, improves the game.

    Why do you think it makes the game worse?
    Having 3 progression paths, with 1 massively easier than the other 2, isn’t a good design in my opinion.

    Mythic+ is already the easiest and most accessible. In my opinion making it even easier isn’t a good approach to the game.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Having 3 progression paths, with 1 massively easier than the other 2, isn’t a good design in my opinion.

    Mythic+ is already the easiest and most accessible. In my opinion making it even easier isn’t a good approach to the game.
    Again, why? What’s the bad outcome?

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Again, why? What’s the bad outcome?
    Because rewards being relative to difficulty is a fundamental RPG and game in general reward structure some of us enjoy?

    What would be the bad outcome if 226 gear was on a cheap vendor so it’s accessible to everyone regardless of ability?

    Obviously that’s an extreme example, but the principle is the same, with the key being where you draw the line.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I think having this available to heroic raiders, and doable by fairly casual groups, improves the game.
    So exactly like it is now? If you make what exists now easier then it won't be for Heroic level raiders. World quests reward 194 which is end of dungeon level for +5 and that has the weekly vault at +15 item level. It doesn't need to be made easier.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #485
    Too many cruel oil rig bosses in this thread for me. Try helping the community instead of staying entitled and supporting the toxic system just because it supports you. If you didn't pug your way to KSM I don't see how you can understand what off meta classes have been dealing with or you have never have bothered to notice in the last two xpacs how these issues can fester.

    The dungeon count doesn't lie. There will be a massive disparity by the end of the season. Because even after all these months in people are choosing to pretend that not learning how to complete dungeons in time with all classes somehow makes you better at the game.

    Tired of reading your hard stuck, I walked through snow and now you all have to and no I won't help you with what I have learned old world logic. It is a game. Stop acting like it isn't. You sound like old people talking about younger generations as if you are entitled to be the gate keepers of content. And always have...
    Last edited by Gratz; 2021-03-20 at 08:42 PM.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Because rewards being relative to difficulty is a fundamental RPG and game in general reward structure some of us enjoy?

    What would be the bad outcome if 226 gear was on a cheap vendor so it’s accessible to everyone regardless of ability?

    Obviously that’s an extreme example, but the principle is the same, with the key being where you draw the line.
    Still not seeing a bad outcome. Your example has an obvious bad outcome- people would stop playing because it’s too easy. I don’t think the current system has that issue. I don’t see mythic raiders unsubbing because they got gear from the vault.

    You keep referring to good design which is not an argument- why is it good? How does it make the game better?

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Still not seeing a bad outcome. Your example has an obvious bad outcome- people would stop playing because it’s too easy. I don’t think the current system has that issue. I don’t see mythic raiders unsubbing because they got gear from the vault.

    You keep referring to good design which is not an argument- why is it good? How does it make the game better?
    In my opinion, a reward structure where difficulty and level of reward are aligned is an enjoyable experience because it makes overcoming challenges fulfilling since they give greater rewards as the challenge goes up.

    To me, when there are multiple paths to the same rewards and one is significantly easier than the rest, it throws this reward structure out of balance and creates a feeling of “why bother doing the harder content when I can do something much easier for the same reward.” Or finally overcoming a challenge and sharding all the rewards because I have the same or better from a much easier source.

    Obviously opinions differ, but I feel a game is more enjoyable when the rewards correlate with the difficulty. Right now mythic+ is a lot easier and more accessible than rated PvP or raids for the same reward, but it does have a downside of being more RNG heavy and item limited. To me making it even easier isn’t an improvement.

    If someone else wants it to be an easy source of good gear that’s fine, they can voice that argument, and I’ll voice the opposite.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Gratz View Post
    Too many cruel oil rig bosses in this thread for me. Try helping the community instead of staying entitled and supporting the toxic system just because it supports you. If you didn't pug your way to KSM I don't see how you can understand what off meta classes have been dealing with or you have never have bothered to notice in the last two xpacs how these issues can fester.

    The dungeon count doesn't lie. There will be a massive disparity by the end of the season. Because even after all these months in people are choosing to pretend that not learning how to complete dungeons in time with all classes somehow makes you better at the game.

    Tired of reading your hard stuck, I walked through snow and now you all have to and no I won't help you with what I have learned old world logic. It is a game. Stop acting like it isn't. You sound like old people talking about younger generations as if you are entitled to be the gate keepers of content. And always have...
    As usual, the problem is not the content, it’s the people.

    KSM is not difficult per se, it’s difficult because if you don’t have your fixed group of friends/guildies/whatever, you will find terrible people (not per se, terrible at playing) in pug and will fail 7-8 keys on 10.

    And also making your own group has low chances to guarantee a “victory”, because as you may have noticed there are a lot of ppl out there with high rio that you don’t know how they could made to that rio since they play bad.

    Today I joined a PF 12, we were all 900 to 950 rio. The tank was good, but all dps had 3k dps. All of 3. HOW THE HELL DID YOU REACH 950 rio WITH 3k DPS? Infact the run took 65 minutes and 70 deaths to be completed.

    And this happens all the fokkin times. It’s the people, not the game.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    In my opinion, a reward structure where difficulty and level of reward are aligned is an enjoyable experience because it makes overcoming challenges fulfilling since they give greater rewards as the challenge goes up.

    To me, when there are multiple paths to the same rewards and one is significantly easier than the rest, it throws this reward structure out of balance and creates a feeling of “why bother doing the harder content when I can do something much easier for the same reward.” Or finally overcoming a challenge and sharding all the rewards because I have the same or better from a much easier source.

    Obviously opinions differ, but I feel a game is more enjoyable when the rewards correlate with the difficulty. Right now mythic+ is a lot easier and more accessible than rated PvP or raids for the same reward, but it does have a downside of being more RNG heavy and item limited. To me making it even easier isn’t an improvement.

    If someone else wants it to be an easy source of good gear that’s fine, they can voice that argument, and I’ll voice the opposite.
    Ignoring pvp (that's generally a niche activity), I don't agree with your assessment that mythic+ offers the same reward as mythic raiding, because mythic raiding offers gear from the raid (that you can start trading once people start getting duplicate items) and gear from the vault, so you get it much faster. You also get 233 gear at the end. And practically speaking, heroic raiders typically won't start getting +14 gear right at the start of a tier. As a result, mythic raiders will still be 5-6 item levels ahead of heroic raiders most of the time.

    So to me, the rewards are still correlated with difficulty. Mythic raiding is most rewarding, then mythic+, then heroic. Personally, I don't think that the vault should have as big a role in gearing as it does, it's kinda sad that you get your best upgrade of the week the first minute you log in, but that's a separate discussion.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Ignoring pvp (that's generally a niche activity), I don't agree with your assessment that mythic+ offers the same reward as mythic raiding, because mythic raiding offers gear from the raid (that you can start trading once people start getting duplicate items) and gear from the vault, so you get it much faster. You also get 233 gear at the end. And practically speaking, heroic raiders typically won't start getting +14 gear right at the start of a tier. As a result, mythic raiders will still be 5-6 item levels ahead of heroic raiders most of the time.

    So to me, the rewards are still correlated with difficulty. Mythic raiding is most rewarding, then mythic+, then heroic. Personally, I don't think that the vault should have as big a role in gearing as it does, it's kinda sad that you get your best upgrade of the week the first minute you log in, but that's a separate discussion.
    Right now, yeah it is kinda, hence why mythic+ shouldnt be easier or reward better stuff, it already provides the vault upgrades which are huge and its the fastest way for early gearing, if you make it easier its unfair for the other progression paths and if you improve its farmable rewards, then you make heroic raiding useless, just like BFA, you dont remember how heroic raiding was worse than just spamming +15s in terms of ilvl? this was terrible design and people are unironically wanting this back, makes no sense.

    And pvp isnt niche the moment you can engage with it, its another progression path and should be considered also, which atm is the most broken one since thanks to that you can gear yourself with 226 bis pieces fairly fast, do you think its fair for m+ and mythic raiding that if you pvp you start mythic progression with 233 weapons? cause this is exactly what happened and why pvp gearing is broken.

  11. #491
    Ppl hating on the word entitled but no one can describe why they should be invited over other options. If I have other better classes with higher ilvl and higher rio, it IS entitlement to think you should be invited over them.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Right now, yeah it is kinda, hence why mythic+ shouldnt be easier or reward better stuff, it already provides the vault upgrades which are huge and its the fastest way for early gearing, if you make it easier its unfair for the other progression paths and if you improve its farmable rewards, then you make heroic raiding useless, just like BFA, you dont remember how heroic raiding was worse than just spamming +15s in terms of ilvl? this was terrible design and people are unironically wanting this back, makes no sense.

    And pvp isnt niche the moment you can engage with it, its another progression path and should be considered also, which atm is the most broken one since thanks to that you can gear yourself with 226 bis pieces fairly fast, do you think its fair for m+ and mythic raiding that if you pvp you start mythic progression with 233 weapons? cause this is exactly what happened and why pvp gearing is broken.
    Agreed the pvp gear thing is weird... I just don’t care. Don’t pvp and I don’t know many who do.

  13. #493
    I think it's a symptom of fire mages being so busted that essentially one ranged dps spot is always unavailable for others.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    I think it's a symptom of fire mages being so busted that essentially one ranged dps spot is always unavailable for others.
    Meanwhile melee fighting for 1 spot total

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Meanwhile melee fighting for 1 spot total
    Whelp when they learn how to not stand in everything, don’t get cleaved, and stop getting hit by Fixates and Shades we shall talk.

    Meanwhile, for the majority of the world, fire mages actually suck. People rolled to it thinking it was going to be brain dead and literally can’t combust without double hitting fire blast and fail Phoenix. Oh well.

    Frost mages tend to be much more solid a random pick for the 13-14 players... since, you know, it’s just Ice lance and fragments

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    I have never had a dungeon run where we played it down perfectly with no wipes and didn't make the timer in the end. Not a single time. When we fail the timer it's because of 1-2 wipes at some point in the dungeon.

    In tyrannical you gotta pull big against trash. That's why I said the route needs to be good as well. With a good route and people who do mechanics, you can easily time any dungeon on 10-14 with not much dps.

    The problem with bad groups is that everyone is bad. Tanks who don't know what to pull when. Healers who don't know when to do damage and when to heal. And dps players who don't know how to best use their cooldowns. Combine all three and you maybe end up with a group that doesn't time a key even though they didn't wipe. And here is the thing: I never encountered such a group because I am part of the group and I do my part to not fail the timer. I'm the tank who put in a lot of time and effort to learn what to pull when. So even if I don't have the best dps players in my group, the timer won't be an issue unless people mess up and die.

    Every single player in a 5 man group can carry the run in the 10-15 range as long as the rest of the group is not completely braindead. Every. Single. Player. The reason people miss the timer so hard, is not that the others are sooooo bad. It's because you are bad as well. Everyone should learn this lesson. We are all making mistakes and we could all be better. The low dps players are not the sole reason a 10-15 key depletes.

    Sure, but I just told you why you’re wrong. Your anecdotal evidence cannot dispute mine, because yours says mine isn’t true whereas mine requires zero from you.

    Therefore; I’m telling you people fail. And you’re probably worse than most players, I agree.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycras View Post
    Yeap, you did guess right !

    Warlock !

    Title says it all..

    I've nothing to say. Thank you.
    M+ and rio are cancer
    Wrath baby and proud of it

  17. #497
    yeah if my 215 havoc DH alt can get into 15s you can. main is 1.6k so they see that but still it's not ur class.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by kiramon View Post
    Whelp when they learn how to not stand in everything, don’t get cleaved, and stop getting hit by Fixates and Shades we shall talk.

    Meanwhile, for the majority of the world, fire mages actually suck. People rolled to it thinking it was going to be brain dead and literally can’t combust without double hitting fire blast and fail Phoenix. Oh well.

    Frost mages tend to be much more solid a random pick for the 13-14 players... since, you know, it’s just Ice lance and fragments

    - - - Updated - - -




    Sure, but I just told you why you’re wrong. Your anecdotal evidence cannot dispute mine, because yours says mine isn’t true whereas mine requires zero from you.

    Therefore; I’m telling you people fail. And you’re probably worse than most players, I agree.
    If you count up the number of shit melee has to avoid compared to number of shit ranged has to avoid, you'd realize why melee gets hit more.

    Take that pull right before the gauntlet in SD. You got the mist dancer, gargoyle, and grand overseer. Depending on how good the tank is, you have the thrusts from the dancer littering the place. Then you have to dodge the swirlies on the ground from gargoyle. But don't accidentally run past them, into the 1 safe spot around all the thrusts, because thats where the tank positioned the gargoyle and now you've been cleaved with the severing sweep or whatever it is, and are now ticking for 30% of your hp. On top of that you have to run away from the chains from the overseer. All while trying to do damage, while your character is doing a bunch of flashy shit and all the bright spell effects from the ranged are blowing up on the mobs.

    Meanwhile what do I have to worry about in that pull as a ranged? Sidestepping 3 yards every 15 sec to avoid the swirlies from the gargoyle. All because I outrange everything else.

    Don't even get me started on affixes.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    If you count up the number of shit melee has to avoid compared to number of shit ranged has to avoid, you'd realize why melee gets hit more.

    Take that pull right before the gauntlet in SD. You got the mist dancer, gargoyle, and grand overseer. Depending on how good the tank is, you have the thrusts from the dancer littering the place. Then you have to dodge the swirlies on the ground from gargoyle. But don't accidentally run past them, into the 1 safe spot around all the thrusts, because thats where the tank positioned the gargoyle and now you've been cleaved with the severing sweep or whatever it is, and are now ticking for 30% of your hp. On top of that you have to run away from the chains from the overseer. All while trying to do damage, while your character is doing a bunch of flashy shit and all the bright spell effects from the ranged are blowing up on the mobs.

    Meanwhile what do I have to worry about in that pull as a ranged? Sidestepping 3 yards every 15 sec to avoid the swirlies from the gargoyle. All because I outrange everything else.

    Don't even get me started on affixes.
    What do you expect? This guy's argument is "I have seen bad fire mages, so all fire mages are meta slaves and suck, they're only good in MDI". Clearly this guy has never pugged with a fire mage with >800 rio score.

    I mean, when the answer to the statement "I have never had a timer fail if there was no wipe" (a 100% subjective statement) is "YOU'RE WRONG", what do you expect from someone like that?

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    What do you expect? This guy's argument is "I have seen bad fire mages, so all fire mages are meta slaves and suck, they're only good in MDI". Clearly this guy has never pugged with a fire mage with >800 rio score.

    I mean, when the answer to the statement "I have never had a timer fail if there was no wipe" (a 100% subjective statement) is "YOU'RE WRONG", what do you expect from someone like that?
    Not much tbh. Just trying to discern if he really thinks melee players are just bad and thats why they generally take more dmg lol.

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