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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    I agree with that, I just view dungeons as inferior to raids, despite m+. M+ is a great addition because it gives you something to do if you want to play outside of raid nights with your guild. But those raid nights are the real highlights of WoW, that's why I care more about them than dungeon balance.
    @Cool. Can you bring something of essence to that discussion, or you just came here to share your irrelevant opinion with everyone who doesn't really care?;

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by lachlol View Post
    @Cool. Can you bring something of essence to that discussion, or you just came here to share your irrelevant opinion with everyone who doesn't really care?;
    Which discussion? There isn't one in this thread.

    But especially for you:
    Warlocks don't have to be good in m+ as long as the excel in raids.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by AlmightyGerkin View Post
    How to solve this problem in one easy step:
    1:Create your own group.
    Well that is a weak argument. If you open your group, even with good score, higher than needed for a +15, you have to wait a REAL long time for a tank if you are no meta specc. You get a lot of tanks, most of them with low rio or no experience in that stone lvl, i.e SD +15 and tank got untimed 11 as best key.
    Or ofc, you can get a real good tank, but he got a "friend" that you will have to carry...

    Good and experienced tanks can choose their grp, why they should list in a grp with no metas, knowing it will take longer and will be harder to time/finish it ?

    The key problem is balance! Or overtuned Dungeons. But 5 low performing meta-players will have an easier run timing a +15 than 5 high performing players on bad speccs/covenants. A real good played warlock will perform worse than a medium played firemage. And if you invite a warlock or join a warlock grp you cant know if he is a good performing player.

    @OP
    the easiest solution is collecting non meta tanks on your friendslist. It will take some time, it will cost some keys, but it will make your m+ life so much more comfortable for future runs/seasons.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycras View Post
    Yeap, you did guess right !

    Warlock !

    Title says it all..

    I've nothing to say. Thank you.
    As people have said in all the multiple threads T_T about this...
    1) No one cares
    2) Make your own groups
    3) Join a guild
    4) Make friends
    5) No one cares

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Rinaul View Post
    As people have said in all the multiple threads T_T about this...
    1) No one cares
    2) Make your own groups
    3) Join a guild
    4) Make friends
    5) No one cares
    Fascinating that you take the time to reply if you don't care.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    That's a unfounded assumption. M+ is way more similar to Diablo's rifts than it is to challenge modes.
    So Challenge modes being a timed run has nothing to do with current Mythic+ being a timed run? The only thing they share in common with rifts is a progressive difficulty which is nothing inherent to Diablo design. It is weird how blind people get when they look for design scapegoats.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #107
    just learn a new class...

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Non-timed dungeons don't get meta slaved nearly as hard.

    Making dungeons into a timed min-max esport was a mistake.
    it has to be timed to determine the next key lvl,you can take all the time you want sniffing flowers and not time it,you still get loot

  9. #109
    My last 3 runs all had a warlock in them. Honestly, i see them quite often.
    I see far less warriors for example.

  10. #110
    Oh boohoo, the poor Warlock who's topping the meters in every raid encounter can't get into an m+, boohoo.

    Try being a Ret Paladin for a week and then come again. Try being a Feral Druid. Try being an Enhancer. Try being literally anything but the most reliably overpowered PvE class that just so happens to not be fotm for this specific subset of PvE content this once.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee76 View Post
    The key problem is balance! Or overtuned Dungeons.
    It's overtuned dungeons, or else a fundamental change in who should expect to be able to clear +15s. In my opinion, heroic and +15 m+ should be relatively puggable (hardcore players have mythic raiding and pushing keys beyond 15). In the past that was the norm, but in Shadowlands so far it's not. Pugs aren't killing Denathrius to nearly the same extent they killed previous bosses on heroic, and +15 mythics are much harder to complete with a random pug group because of the interrupt/tank kiting meta. That's at the root of all these threads.

    Although I would be curious to look at how the proliferation of boosting has affected pugging. Even my buddy in a 5/10 mythic guild with KSM is boosting keys right now, and that's new.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-03-14 at 07:49 PM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So Challenge modes being a timed run has nothing to do with current Mythic+ being a timed run? The only thing they share in common with rifts is a progressive difficulty which is nothing inherent to Diablo design. It is weird how blind people get when they look for design scapegoats.
    Diablo is an easy target because it's both made by Blizzard and it's an ARPG, and simpler by design. So haters can claim that the game is getting worse and more simplsitic (like an arpg)
    Armory Link
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    Everything wrong with gamers in one sentence:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavox View Post
    I want Activision-Blizzard to burn, but for crimes against gaming, not because they got me too'd.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    It's overtuned dungeons, or else a fundamental change in who should expect to be able to clear +15s. In my opinion, heroic and +15 m+ should be relatively puggable (hardcore players have mythic raiding and pushing keys beyond 15). In the past that was the norm, but in Shadowlands so far it's not. Pugs aren't killing Denathrius to nearly the same extent they killed previous bosses on heroic, and +15 mythics are much harder to complete with a random pug group because of the interrupt/tank kiting meta. That's at the root of all these threads.
    I totally agree to this, mate.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    It's overtuned dungeons, or else a fundamental change in who should expect to be able to clear +15s. In my opinion, heroic and +15 m+ should be relatively puggable (hardcore players have mythic raiding and pushing keys beyond 15). In the past that was the norm, but in Shadowlands so far it's not. Pugs aren't killing Denathrius to nearly the same extent they killed previous bosses on heroic, and +15 mythics are much harder to complete with a random pug group because of the interrupt/tank kiting meta. That's at the root of all these threads.

    Although I would be curious to look at how the proliferation of boosting has affected pugging. Even my buddy in a 5/10 mythic guild with KSM is boosting keys right now, and that's new.
    Depends whats your comparison, cause if your bar to gauge is BFA where everyone and my mom got carried by corruption, yeah no thats not a good comparison, PvE content in SL is indeed harder than BFA but your average player is also experimenting the truth aka how he really plays, since they got spoiled by corruption allowing them to do a dps they never deserved to begin with, so now in SL with nothing to spoil them, they dont perform.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Depends whats your comparison, cause if your bar to gauge is BFA where everyone and my mom got carried by corruption, yeah no thats not a good comparison, PvE content in SL is indeed harder than BFA but your average player is also experimenting the truth aka how he really plays, since they got spoiled by corruption allowing them to do a dps they never deserved to begin with, so now in SL with nothing to spoil them, they dont perform.
    DPS usually isn't the issue. It's mechanics that assume a level of coordination that is hard for pugs to achieve. I'd love it if encounters were tuned more around throughput because that's fun to overcome as you get more gear. In Shadowlands, gear doesn't help you because the gap between handling mechanics perfectly and being less coordinated is far larger than the difference in gear between a 205 group and a 220 group.

    It's a very frustrating setup because it also means that good players have limited ability to carry bad ones, so it's not like you can be like "I'm 225, my dps will carry this group to a kill."
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-03-14 at 08:00 PM.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    The valor system introduced a perverted effect :

    1- People who get their achievement will now farm +15 for loot. They got higher RIO that those who couldn't have the achievement last week
    2- The people without achivement will now be stuck because the +15 will litteraly be invaded by higher RIO player that are only there to farm their loot to upgrade.

    In short, we're fucked.
    Hahahaha. No. Make your own group. It's flooded with high rio, high ilvl players who know what they're doing. I pugged 4 keys this week on ilvl 172 warlock. Now I'm going to get a 216 in vault.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  17. #117
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    You're a dps, theres million of yours. Has nothing todo with your class/r.io/spec or whatever you put in your head the reason is you dont get invite.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    DPS usually isn't the issue. It's mechanics that assume a level of coordination that is hard for pugs to achieve. I'd love it if encounters were tuned more around throughput because that's fun to overcome as you get more gear. In Shadowlands, gear doesn't help you because the gap between handling mechanics perfectly and being less coordinated is far larger than the difference in gear between a 205 group and a 220 group.
    In that case i agree, some fights are designed so poorly that getting more gear helps with absolutely nothing, the big offenders being mythic xymox and mythic generals, we always despise doing them on farm, blizz needs to stop designing encounters based on tight timers or getting more gear makes almost no difference, this is just terrible design and everyone who raids mythic hates Mythic Generals for that reason.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    In that case i agree, some fights are designed so poorly that getting more gear helps with absolutely nothing, the big offenders being mythic xymox and mythic generals, we always despise doing them on farm, blizz needs to stop designing encounters based on tight timers or getting more gear makes almost no difference, this is just terrible design and everyone who raids mythic hates Mythic Generals for that reason.
    I'm playing at a much lower level then you, but I see it in m+ too. The example I always reference is the pull with the Shards of Halkias and the three casters in HOA. The collector spawns extra adds so he has to be interrupted, and the two casters cast "wicked bolt" which chunks off about 25% of a tank's health if it's not interrupted. That's just one of the 20 odd pulls, and not nearly the hardest pull, in one of the easier dungeons, and it requires coordinating 3 interrupts. Sure, not too hard to do in a coordinated group, but it's hard to plan all that out if you're in a random pug, so pugs wipe all the time on that pull. Eliminating just one of those interrupts (or substantially nerfing the bolt damage) would not really impact the MDI level players at all because they interrupt everything, but it would suddenly make the dungeon a lot less punishing on pugs.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-03-14 at 08:10 PM.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by kaintk View Post
    imagine thinking that 5man dungeon should be the more important thing to do in a M M O R P G , rofl

    where is the multiplayer content ?
    where are the area raiding ?
    where are the multiple monsters invasion invading cities ?

    etc etc.. the game is just about going in closed arena, closed 5man dungeon, closed 20man raid and people think this game is an MMO
    WoW has always been instanced based, not sure why you are expecting that to change after 16 years.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I'm playing at a much lower level then you, but I see it in m+ too. The example I always reference is the pull with the Shards of Halkias and the three casters in HOA. The collector spawns extra adds so he has to be interrupted, and the two casters cast "wicked bolt" which chunks off about 25% of a tank's health if it's not interrupted. That's just one of the 20 odd pulls in one of the easier dungeons, and it requires coordinating 3 interrupts. Sure, not too hard to do, but it's hard to plan all that out if you're in a random pug, so pugs wipe all the time on that pull. Eliminating just one of those interrupts would not really impact the MDI level players at all because they interrupt everything, but it would suddenly make the dungeon a lot less punishing on pugs.
    When content is giving mythic level items in your vault, it’s ok to expect the players to actually do more then pew pew.

    Mythic+ is still by far the easiest and most accessible path to 226 gear.

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