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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    When content is giving mythic level items in your vault, it’s ok to expect the players to actually do more then pew pew.

    Mythic+ is still by far the easiest and most accessible path to 226 gear.
    That's where we disagree. Yes, it does give you 226 gear and it's easier than (most) mythic bosses but it's slow... your gear is not going to be competitive with an actual mythic raider until the end of the tier (when it's not nearly as useful). To me it's fine to have a slow drip of good gear that's easier to acquire than mythic raid loot.

    It also seems to fit my perception of the role of m+ a bit better - raiding is the activity you run with a dedicated group on scheduled days, to me m+ is something raiders do casually on off days, or that ex raiders with less time on their hands can run casually on the days they can play. You can go nuts in m+ and get to +20 if you want, maybe they give you a mount, title or transmog for doing it. But I don't think +15 is the right place to expect mythic level coordination.

    I'm not saying it has to be super easy, by the way, just less punishing on uncoordinated groups. As a great example, last boss Eye of Azshara wasn't easy, lots of mechanics to dodge, but it didn't require massive coordination to do it. Coordinating interrupts doesn't take a ton of skill, it takes coordination. Make m+ about skill and I have a much smaller issue with it.

    This thread is also highlighting a separate problem, which is that mythic level coordination requirements with a small group leads to class stacking and exclusion of classes to a much greater extent than mythic raiding would. You're rarely going to make a choice about what class gets to come to a mythic raid based on interrupts, but an extra interrupt makes a huge difference in m+ so it can become a determining factor (shaman healers this tier).
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-03-14 at 08:31 PM.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    m+ is a symptom of wanting to make dungeons matter,and its one of the best aditions to the game,the fact that players are meta slaves doesnt speak to the system itself,you can time a 15 with literaly any comp just fine
    There’s literally nothing Blizz can do without being super heavy handed to stop meta slaving. It’s just how the game is - look at Classic and world buffs.
    Check out my Ret Paladin YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/VarabenGaming

    #RETPRESENT

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So Challenge modes being a timed run has nothing to do with current Mythic+ being a timed run? The only thing they share in common with rifts is a progressive difficulty which is nothing inherent to Diablo design. It is weird how blind people get when they look for design scapegoats.
    Well, rifts are timed as well and you need to kill a specific number of mobs to finish it. You can not change your gear/skills while doing a run, same as m+. If you die you get a time penalty. You do it for the gear and you need a key to do it.
    There is no difference between a rift and a m+ dungeon, except there's only one boss in rifts.

    Challenge mode had scaled gear, no mob kill count, no penalty on death, no gear rewards and you could change gear and choose between two saved specs. You had infinite tries and had free access.
    The only thing that CM has in common with m+ is the timer.

    M+ really is a 1:1 copy of rifts and that Diablo devs were working on WoW for Legion is common knowledge.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    M+ really is a 1:1 copy of rifts and that Diablo devs were working on WoW for Legion is common knowledge.
    See this is where we know you are blind. It is hardly a 1 for 1 copy of rifts because rifts do not have a fixed layout or fixed bosses. Also normal rifts are not timed. Only greater rifts are timed. Mythic+ is an evolution of Challenge modes that predates rifts since they were not included until 2014 when Reaper of Souls was released. Mythic+ is an evolution of Challenge modes plain and simple. You don't have to be the exact same thing as a previous iteration in order to be an evolution of it. lol.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-03-14 at 08:35 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    See this is where we know you are blind. It is hardly a 1 for 1 copy of rifts because rifts do not have a fixed layout or fixed bosses. Also normal rifts are not timed. Only greater rifts are timed. Mythic+ is an evolution of Challenge modes that predates rifts since they were not included until 2014 when Reaper of Souls was released. Mythic+ is an evolution of Challenge modes plain and simple. You don't have to be the exact same thing as a previous iteration in order to be an evolution of it. lol.
    But how can you not see that m+ shares more with rifts than with CM? Yes, I agree that the randomness of rifts is a major difference that I did not think about. But the function of m+ and CM is fundamentally different. CM's successor was probably the mage tower, which served the same function as CM's did.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    But how can you not see that m+ shares more with rifts than with CM? Yes, I agree that the randomness of rifts is a major difference that I did not think about. But the function of m+ and CM is fundamentally different. CM's successor was probably the mage tower, which served the same function as CM's did.
    The mage tower was not a timed run in a dungeon though or any where close to the same concept. Lol. So it is in no way a successor. I have never said that the concept of rifts and CM/M+ are not similar in nature. Only that Mythic+ is not because of Rifts since the beginning of the concept in WoW pre-dates rifts. Mythic+ is a natural evolution of CM runs as they addressed many of the flaws people had with CM in both MoP and WoD.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The mage tower was not a timed run in a dungeon though or any where close to the same concept. Lol. So it is in no way a successor. I have never said that the concept of rifts and CM/M+ are not similar in nature. Only that Mythic+ is not because of Rifts since the beginning of the concept in WoW pre-dates rifts. Mythic+ is a natural evolution of CM runs as they addressed many of the flaws people had with CM in both MoP and WoD.
    Which flaws? That they did not award loot? Because that's seems to be the only thing that WoW players care about now. And the concept of rifts was not invented by Blizzard (as if modern Blizz would invent anything, lol), so neither cm nor rifts predate one another. And we can't really tell which one of us is right, because neither one of us works at blizz.
    But in Legion many things were changed:
    Loot got huge random upgrade procs (like ancient in D3), many legendaries were introduced (like in D3) and dropped now randomly from any content (again, like D3), dungeons got scaling difficulties, you got AP that worked similar to paragon levels, the whole game was shifted to fast action combat. The DH plays like a D3 character with few skills that get customized by talents (runes) and breaks with the typical tab targeting WoW had. WQs and emissary quests were introduced, that worked exactly like quests in diablo do. With all those changes combined with the fact that at this time the WoW team grew because diablo devs joined it, you might excuse my suspicion, that m+ was heavily inspired by diablo as well.
    Last edited by LordVargK; 2021-03-14 at 09:32 PM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Which flaws? That they did not award loot? Because that's seems to be the only thing that WoW players care about now. And the concept of rifts was not invented by Blizzard (as if modern Blizz would invent anything, lol), so neither cm nor rifts predate one another. And we can't really tell which one of us is right, because neither one of us works at blizz.
    CM was implemented in WoW before Rifts were in Diablo 3. It is clear which concept made it to reality first. Blizzard also tweaked the concept of rifts including major over hauls during the course of RoS "active" development. One of the biggest complaints from CM was that was just a basic speed run where as Mythic+ is designed to have a more forgiving timer and plays more on competence/skill then a straight speed run.

    Half of your D3 comparison are not even similarites. You keep showing how blind you have it in order to hate on the design for being "Diablo-like". Weird how you keep having to use exaggerations or out right false claims isn't it? The WoW version of a Demon Hunter plays nothing like a Diablo 3 character. Lol. World Quests do not act exactly like bounties do in D3. Similar concept? Sure but there is nothing wrong with similar concepts.

    The WoW team always grows from developers on other projects when they need a new task. They also shrink when developers are moved to a new project. Do you know nothing of game design? lol.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Fascinating that you take the time to reply if you don't care.
    Fascinating that these threads still make it here. Thought this was a forum not a blog.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Varaben View Post
    There’s literally nothing Blizz can do without being super heavy handed to stop meta slaving. It’s just how the game is - look at Classic and world buffs.
    ye but this expansion they went full "stupid" mode with meta. most of this comes down to 2 things - uncapped aoe of fire mages and convoke for druids. 3 months in they didnt nerf it one bit ridiculus

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    CM was implemented in WoW before Rifts were in Diablo 3. It is clear which concept made it to reality first. Blizzard also tweaked the concept of rifts including major over hauls during the course of RoS "active" development. One of the biggest complaints from CM was that was just a basic speed run where as Mythic+ is designed to have a more forgiving timer and plays more on competence/skill then a straight speed run.

    Half of your D3 comparison are not even similarites. You keep showing how blind you have it in order to hate on the design for being "Diablo-like". Weird how you keep having to use exaggerations or out right false claims isn't it? The WoW version of a Demon Hunter plays nothing like a Diablo 3 character. Lol. World Quests do not act exactly like bounties do in D3. Similar concept? Sure but there is nothing wrong with similar concepts.

    The WoW team always grows from developers on other projects when they need a new task. They also shrink when developers are moved to a new project. Do you know nothing of game design? lol.
    Rifts have nothing to so with CMs. They were probably adapted from Torchlight or similar games. And competence/skill are necessary to do a speedrun, those are not mutually exclusive.

    Emissaries work pretty much exactly like bounties: Diablo: do 5 quests in act 1 and in act one you have zones where you free 5 prisoners/kill 20 mobs/do one minegame/kill a strong enemy. WoW: do 4 quests from one faction. And those quests are scattered in the game world exactly like diablos quests are. They are even similarly generated, in that they were often missions you did as part of the story, just slightly changed and now repeated ad nauseum. WQs are not similar, they are exactly the same.

    Yeah, the wow team grew and was reinforced by the diablo team. Thanks for repeating my point. And that WoW got a massive overhaul of nearly all gameplay systems following this event was just coincidence, right?

    lol

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Rifts have nothing to so with CMs. They were probably adapted from Torchlight or similar games. And competence/skill are necessary to do a speedrun, those are not mutually exclusive.
    So you agree then that CM's and M+ have nothing to do with Diablo 3 because they are probably adapted from Torchlight or similar games right? A speed run and a high key M+ require different sets of skills. One is defeating a timer only while the other includes actual mechanics etc. As evident by a lot of responses in this thread. Despite having a timer M+ is currently not just a speed run. Emissaries and World quests are simply an evolution of dailies. Are they similar to the bounties added to d3? Sure.

    But just as you used similar games for D3 inspiration why couldn't WoW have done the same? You keep trying to make it a bad thing that similar concepts appear in different games. There is a reason why that always happens because those concepts are good idea's. Which is why Blizzard iterates on concepts and evolves them going forward.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-03-14 at 11:24 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    The timer is there to add some difficulty (spare me the fake difficulty argument cause it does add it) and prevents the cheesing to some extent, cause if you had no timers you would have teams doing a +22 in 35 mins planning the route and the pulls + cds and another team doing the same +22 in 3 hours using bl for every pull of 4 mobs at a time, if you think that the second team has any idea of the game compared to the first team, then theres not much argument to be had.
    You are tiny bit wrong there - dungeons already have a system which prevents you from waiting for lust and CD-s for every pack - it's called bosses - if you would ever reach the point where you need to BL / CD every trash pack, good luck with downing a boss.

    Just look at tyranical weeks - how many runs just fail there because they do not have enough throughput / skill / prides left to down a particular boss?

    Timer is an obsolete mechanic for an infinitely scalable content, way more interesting execution-wise limiter just from game design perspective would be an actual wipe limit (which is partially included in the timer)
    Last edited by Ludek; 2021-03-14 at 10:17 PM.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee76 View Post
    Well that is a weak argument. If you open your group, even with good score, higher than needed for a +15, you have to wait a REAL long time for a tank if you are no meta specc. You get a lot of tanks, most of them with low rio or no experience in that stone lvl, i.e SD +15 and tank got untimed 11 as best key.
    Really long time for a 15? I created a group and in a matter of two minutes it was full. Still timed it almost 2 timed it.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    So what, are you now diagnosing mental disorders?
    Also, what dungeon scene before m+? Pet battles were as relevant as that.
    I wasn't thinking about mental disorders until you mentioned it, but now that you did, ya I think there might be something going on there with all these people who actually enjoy the toxic m+ pug scene.

    People aren't supposed to enjoy toxic enviroments.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    I wasn't thinking about mental disorders until you mentioned it, but now that you did, ya I think there might be something going on there with all these people who actually enjoy the toxic m+ pug scene.

    People aren't supposed to enjoy toxic enviroments.
    Amm... it's not toxic by default. You can make pet battles toxic if you want.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    You are tiny bit wrong there - dungeons already have a system which prevents you from waiting for lust and CD-s for every pack - it's called bosses - if you would ever reach the point where you need to BL / CD every trash pack, good luck with downing a boss.

    Just look at tyranical weeks - how many runs just fail there because they do not have enough throughput / skill / prides left to down a particular boss?

    Timer is an obsolete mechanic for an infinitely scalable content, way more interesting execution-wise limiter just from game design perspective would be an actual wipe limit (which is partially included in the timer)
    Making the actual bosses the hard limit would make metas so much more exclusionary.

    Making it time based, where team synergy on pulls and coordination of handling mechanics allows for way larger variety of specs (yeah still a meta) then hard boss throughput checks.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by AlmightyGerkin View Post
    Really long time for a 15? I created a group and in a matter of two minutes it was full. Still timed it almost 2 timed it.
    thats only true for mists, de other side and possibly spires rest have an absurd wait time for tanks and healers because those 3 have the hot ticket items

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    thats only true for mists, de other side and possibly spires rest have an absurd wait time for tanks and healers because those 3 have the hot ticket items
    No its not. So many people are trying for KSM

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    I wasn't thinking about mental disorders until you mentioned it, but now that you did, ya I think there might be something going on there with all these people who actually enjoy the toxic m+ pug scene.

    People aren't supposed to enjoy toxic enviroments.
    League of Legends is the poster child of toxicity within gaming, and last I checked, it was rather popular. Shit, even Fortnite has issues apparently. Generally, multiplayer games, anything competitive, will bread toxicity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

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