Page 9 of 33 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
10
11
19
... LastLast
  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    And that somehow means it can't have more than 3? Or that those non-timed versions can't be "challenging"?
    If they actually made dungeons challenging enough with no timer to be worthy of 226 gear it will be massively more meta sensitive since it will end up meaning very steep dps/hps check bosses.

    Which is a nightmare with only 5 people.

    Basically imagine class stacking if mythic raids were 5 people.
    Last edited by Argorwal; 2021-03-15 at 04:29 AM.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Ok, challenge modes rewarded cosmetics. Let's return to that and bring back non-timed dungeons that don't breed systemic elitism and toxicity.
    But that sort of thing existed even with non-timed dungeons. Gear score was a thing in WotLK for example. Players will always look for a way to make their time the most efficient. The problem isn't that the system creates elitism and toxicity it is that it can be exploited for such. But there really isn't much that can be done about it other then the community choosing to be kinder as a whole.

    Which has a very slim chance of happening. There are still a lot who limit that elitism and are not toxic but the bad apples always stand out more.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    And that somehow means it can't have more than 3? Or that those non-timed versions can't be "challenging"?
    As long as Mythic+ is a thing you can't have more then 3. That is simply because of the way it balance works. Normal to heroic to Mythic. The progressively harder content would need a starting point in order to fit with in the style of gearing that WoW uses. It can't be a mode after Mythic because of the way Mythic+ works. It is possible to create a mode beyond Mythic but gear rewards wouldn't work out very well if you had to still progress through all of Mythic+ just to attempt the harder content.

    If it is content that isn't timed then it will just be a matter of raw dps or mechanic checks. Which isn't very challenging and since it is only 5-player base you have to design around not having all abilities that a raid group can have access to. Which means even more classes or specs would be kept out by the community because Blizzard hasn't made everything a basic 1:1 copy. Demo Warlocks finally got a interrupt on their spec pet but it still has limitations compared to other class interrupts. So even ignoring DPS potential they might rank lower then a class that has quicker cooldowns on their interrupts.

    Mythic+ is really the best solution to challenging 5-mans. That doesn't mean it can't see improvements and realistically the next expansion should change something to give it a fresher coat of paint. Since it hasn't changed that much since Legion. But the core system doesn't need much change so I'm not sure what they could do differently.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But that sort of thing existed even with non-timed dungeons. Gear score was a thing in WotLK for example. Players will always look for a way to make their time the most efficient. The problem isn't that the system creates elitism and toxicity it is that it can be exploited for such. But there really isn't much that can be done about it other then the community choosing to be kinder as a whole.

    Which has a very slim chance of happening. There are still a lot who limit that elitism and are not toxic but the bad apples always stand out more.
    Toxicity is rampant because WoW was designed from the start to encourage selfishness. Everything anyone does in the game is purely for their own benefit. There is no reward for helping people, and no reason for anyone to support someone who is weaker than they are. From a technical perspective, this is extremely difficult to fix and would likely need a fundamental overhaul to produce a shift within the social paradigm. But this is also part of what makes the game addictive. The idea is that players team up to receive a common reward, but its evolved into a state where people just use each other to reach their own individual goals.

    WoW is always going to be my favourite game for gameplay, but I am waiting for the mmo genre to evolve into systems that are more inclined towards social building and not based off feeding greed. Wow is only fun solo for me. Playing with people always devolves into a pointless argument of “I play more than you therefore you suck”... Blizz won’t change because the people who play more pay their bills.

  4. #164
    right now the only class i dont invite (even with overall okay) is Feral Druid, but every other class is okay for +15s


    if you cant get in a 15's groups with that ilvl you just need to make your own group, you can use any parament to choose the ppl

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Jest3r View Post
    Toxicity is rampant because WoW was designed from the start to encourage selfishness. Everything anyone does in the game is purely for their own benefit. There is no reward for helping people, and no reason for anyone to support someone who is weaker than they are. From a technical perspective, this is extremely difficult to fix and would likely need a fundamental overhaul to produce a shift within the social paradigm. But this is also part of what makes the game addictive. The idea is that players team up to receive a common reward, but its evolved into a state where people just use each other to reach their own individual goals.
    That is objectively false. WoW has been designed with group content that can not be done solo. So everything anyone does in the game isn't always purely for their own benefit. If group play is always out of selfishness then nothing can ever change that. Because you are saying that any action done by a player can never be about the group rather then the individual.

    There are plenty of reasons to support people weaker then others. It is how most guilds actually function because very few are made up of people with the exact same skill level. So the further you get from World first or Hall of Fame the more you have the dynamic of some members carrying others in some fashion. You can't solve the issues you raised from a technical aspect. Because it requires players to choose others in every situation which causes just as many problems as people thinking only of themselves or their own group at all times.

    If every group activity for you devolves into people saying "I play more so you suck" then you keep picking the wrong crowds. Or their may be an attitude problem on your end or even a skill level where you expect to be carried more then others reasonably expect a member of their group (or guild) to be carried. Blizzard won't change not because of the people who play more pay their bills but because there is little they can do except force.

    And forcing people to group up or carry people outside of their social circle isn't that great of an idea. Blizzard could try to implement a "Karma" system but that isn't always the easiest thing to get right. And Blizzard has tried to have mentors and even give brand new players a Murloc icon to make others aware that they may need to be more forgiving. Not to mention people that play more don't pay the bills anymore then a person that plays 1 day a month. That is how subscriptions work. And with the token those people could actually pay less since someone else covers the subscription fee.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #166
    This is what gearscore did. It created a simple system for lazy players to think they suddenly had a handle on determining the skill of a player. If they had thought about for a few seconds they would realized that: Gearscore does not show how many runs you have completed, how long they took, how many times you died, how much damage you took and best of all, how many times you DID NOT get loot.

    Standing next to you is another player who did the exact same content, the same number of times(they are in the same raid group) but got drops and you did not. Typical lazy players who had no clue how to determine a good player by running content with them and using experience to make a judement call run up to both players. They mouse over one player then the other. "ThIS 1 is beTTer." Gearscore for lazy people.

    It works the same way with RIO and even though there is loads more information to look at lazy players still just want a giant number to do all the thinking for them. Lazy players love gearscore when they have high gearscore, hate gearscore when they don't. Same people who won't invite meta classes and will only play meta classes. They are both sides of the same coin. imo

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Ok, challenge modes rewarded cosmetics. Let's return to that and bring back non-timed dungeons that don't breed systemic elitism and toxicity.
    Why? Even when it was just challenge modes, I knew that I wanted more out of it. Cosmetics are fine and good, but Mythic+ is exactly the content myself and many others wanted. Why else do you think it's so popular?
    Grand Crusader Belloc <-- 6608 Endless Tank Proving Grounds score! (
    Dragonslayer Kooqu

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Gratz View Post
    It works the same way with RIO and even though there is loads more information to look at lazy players still just want a giant number to do all the thinking for them. Lazy players love gearscore when they have high gearscore, hate gearscore when they don't. Same people who won't invite meta classes and will only play meta classes. They are both sides of the same coin. imo
    When you have 100 dps applying to a random group how do you realistically expect them to run an instance with the people that apply to filter out the good from the bad? That means every pug would need two runs. A practice run and the actual run. Which can be never ending if you keep picking unskilled applicants. It also isn't something practical for once only runs like Mythic+.

    Having information to use to make informed decisions is not lazy. Of course people can just be lazy and invite the highest scored person. There is a reason why those ranking systems kept popping up. Because there was a need to filter applicants. You could get a decent tally of who was skilled before cross-realm grouping but since then there is no practical way to be "non-lazy" using your standards.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Making the actual bosses the hard limit would make metas so much more exclusionary.

    Making it time based, where team synergy on pulls and coordination of handling mechanics allows for way larger variety of specs (yeah still a meta) then hard boss throughput checks.
    Well, it's one way or the other - problem is WoW combat system, at it's core does not work well with infinitely scalable difficulty - even if you have your BiS gear on highest possible ilvl, play the most meta spec and have perfect execution - you will reach a point where you simply just cannot progress more, and the only thing left will be praying to RNG-esus for more favorable crits / dodges / procs - as this is the base of the combat system - turn based dice rolls.

    Personally I would be much more interested seeing "the top" how far they could push the content before it gets mathematically impossible, without having the timer on top.

    After all the timer is there just for the bragging rights of "the top". For vast majority of the people, the absolute endgoal of doing M+ is 14 gear wise, or 15 if they want achievement / upgrades - these are doable in time as long as people are steadly collecting the gear and can execute the tactics properly. With gear and tactics 15 are doable without any super crazy synergy and execution simply because your numbers will be better than NPC numbers.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you agree then that CM's and M+ have nothing to do with Diablo 3 because they are probably adapted from Torchlight or similar games right? A speed run and a high key M+ require different sets of skills. One is defeating a timer only while the other includes actual mechanics etc. As evident by a lot of responses in this thread. Despite having a timer M+ is currently not just a speed run. Emissaries and World quests are simply an evolution of dailies. Are they similar to the bounties added to d3? Sure.

    But just as you used similar games for D3 inspiration why couldn't WoW have done the same? You keep trying to make it a bad thing that similar concepts appear in different games. There is a reason why that always happens because those concepts are good idea's. Which is why Blizzard iterates on concepts and evolves them going forward.
    Never did I say that m+ is a bad thing. In contrast, I stated that it is a good thing. Still, Blizzard used Diablo 3 as a proof of concept for many systems that later got introduced in WoW. Blizzard did not invent those systems, but if there weren't successful In diablo, they would not have been implemented in WoW. And no, I do not agree that CMs were adapted from Torchlight, because that specifically referred to the randomness factor inherent to rifts. And beating a timer involves doing actual mechanics as well, since beating a timer means killing bosses. They are the same thing.
    Similar concepts are not bad. But that still does not change the fact, that Legion was heavily inspired by Diablo's systems. And to come back to my main point:
    Raids>>>M+, therefore it's okay for warlocks to be bad in M+ if they are strong in raids.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    Well, it's one way or the other - problem is WoW combat system, at it's core does not work well with infinitely scalable difficulty - even if you have your BiS gear on highest possible ilvl, play the most meta spec and have perfect execution - you will reach a point where you simply just cannot progress more, and the only thing left will be praying to RNG-esus for more favorable crits / dodges / procs - as this is the base of the combat system - turn based dice rolls.
    But that is true of any system unless it offers a never ending source of character power. It has nothing to do with turn based dice rolls and everything to do with character power. If character power has a limit then what they can defeat has a limit as well. The timer also isn't just there for bragging rights of the elite players. With out it there isn't much of a challenge. Because every encounter can wait for cooldowns etc.

    The only way to ensure a challenge exists with out a timer is to tune the content for a perfect scenario. That wall of progress you mentioned. Which doesn't really work for ranks or as a way to reward gear. It would also make boosts super easy to give as higher item level players could easily boost lesser keys if the only thing that makes the content difficult was numbers.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Gratz View Post
    This is what gearscore did. It created a simple system for lazy players to think they suddenly had a handle on determining the skill of a player. If they had thought about for a few seconds they would realized that: Gearscore does not show how many runs you have completed, how long they took, how many times you died, how much damage you took and best of all, how many times you DID NOT get loot.

    Standing next to you is another player who did the exact same content, the same number of times(they are in the same raid group) but got drops and you did not. Typical lazy players who had no clue how to determine a good player by running content with them and using experience to make a judement call run up to both players. They mouse over one player then the other. "ThIS 1 is beTTer." Gearscore for lazy people.

    It works the same way with RIO and even though there is loads more information to look at lazy players still just want a giant number to do all the thinking for them. Lazy players love gearscore when they have high gearscore, hate gearscore when they don't. Same people who won't invite meta classes and will only play meta classes. They are both sides of the same coin. imo
    Lmao. Even the in-game RIO addon shows how fast you ran your highest keys via score, your entire max key history, and the number of dungeon runs you've completed in time in each level bracket. That combined with ilvl is all you need to know about anyone you're considering running with. Don't like it, make your own groups. The majority have cleared adapted to using it.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Never did I say that m+ is a bad thing. In contrast, I stated that it is a good thing. Still, Blizzard used Diablo 3 as a proof of concept for many systems that later got introduced in WoW. Blizzard did not invent those systems, but if there weren't successful In diablo, they would not have been implemented in WoW.
    So by your own argument Diablo 3 is not inspiration for Mythic+ since Challenge mode existed in WoW prior to rifts in Diablo 3. Weird how you keep defeating your own argument isn't it? If Mythic+ is inspired by Rifts, and Rifts are inspired by Torchlight then CM is also inspired by Torchlight and other similar games since it is the precursor to M+. Or are you going to admit your prior claims to calling the WoW version inspired from Diablo devs false?

    If similar concepts are not bad why do you keep up a Diablo influence? It isn't okay for any spec to be bad in end-game content. Raids are not inherently above M+ and tuning only for raids is terrible game design anyways.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-03-15 at 05:50 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #174
    Need to remove m+ it’s not working

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    You are tiny bit wrong there - dungeons already have a system which prevents you from waiting for lust and CD-s for every pack - it's called bosses - if you would ever reach the point where you need to BL / CD every trash pack, good luck with downing a boss.

    Just look at tyranical weeks - how many runs just fail there because they do not have enough throughput / skill / prides left to down a particular boss?

    Timer is an obsolete mechanic for an infinitely scalable content, way more interesting execution-wise limiter just from game design perspective would be an actual wipe limit (which is partially included in the timer)
    what about tyranical weeks ? paradoxaly most of my best timers on tyranical weeks. why ? because bosses are just about executing mechanics - and up to 15 with pride / bl if you dont fuck up, nothign on bosses can really kill you when you do it with like 220 gear because they melt down.

    ofc above it may scale badly but lets be honest how many people play above 15.

    on the other trash can be always easy to fuck up - sometimes lack of 1 interupt among chaos of pull can wipe you - while on bosses you just focus boss mechanics. unless you are on mdi level that you pull trash/pride to boss .

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Every dungeon has 3 non-timed versions.
    That aren't relevant. Only for a a week or so on expansion launches.

    This is a bad faith point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But that sort of thing existed even with non-timed dungeons. Gear score was a thing in WotLK for example. Players will always look for a way to make their time the most efficient. The problem isn't that the system creates elitism and toxicity it is that it can be exploited for such. But there really isn't much that can be done about it other then the community choosing to be kinder as a whole.

    Which has a very slim chance of happening. There are still a lot who limit that elitism and are not toxic but the bad apples always stand out more.

    - - - Updated - - -



    As long as Mythic+ is a thing you can't have more then 3. That is simply because of the way it balance works. Normal to heroic to Mythic. The progressively harder content would need a starting point in order to fit with in the style of gearing that WoW uses. It can't be a mode after Mythic because of the way Mythic+ works. It is possible to create a mode beyond Mythic but gear rewards wouldn't work out very well if you had to still progress through all of Mythic+ just to attempt the harder content.

    If it is content that isn't timed then it will just be a matter of raw dps or mechanic checks. Which isn't very challenging and since it is only 5-player base you have to design around not having all abilities that a raid group can have access to. Which means even more classes or specs would be kept out by the community because Blizzard hasn't made everything a basic 1:1 copy. Demo Warlocks finally got a interrupt on their spec pet but it still has limitations compared to other class interrupts. So even ignoring DPS potential they might rank lower then a class that has quicker cooldowns on their interrupts.

    Mythic+ is really the best solution to challenging 5-mans. That doesn't mean it can't see improvements and realistically the next expansion should change something to give it a fresher coat of paint. Since it hasn't changed that much since Legion. But the core system doesn't need much change so I'm not sure what they could do differently.
    You say that, but I played back then, and for every expansion after. I never saw the rampant exclusion of people based on some "meta" like we do today. Not even fucking close. Not outside of topend raiding anyway.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Lmao. Even the in-game RIO addon shows how fast you ran your highest keys via score, your entire max key history, and the number of dungeon runs you've completed in time in each level bracket. That combined with ilvl is all you need to know about anyone you're considering running with. Don't like it, make your own groups. The majority have cleared adapted to using it.
    ye and then you end up with stuff like boomkins doing half of dps of my frost mage on every single trash pack - and mediocre burst on boss - because he has such a score .... while being boosted by others because he was a boomkin.

    for me raider.io is usless at this point of expansion - to many people already got boosted by just spaming dungeons.

    if you want then regardless of how crap you are eventually you will get score.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    what about tyranical weeks ? paradoxaly most of my best timers on tyranical weeks. why ? because bosses are just about executing mechanics - and up to 15 with pride / bl if you dont fuck up, nothign on bosses can really kill you when you do it with like 220 gear because they melt down.
    220 is 10 item levels beyond the end of run reward so that gear level should make the run easy. Which if you are just running it for the weekly great vault you might as well do a +14 since it rewards the same item level as a +15.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Why? Even when it was just challenge modes, I knew that I wanted more out of it. Cosmetics are fine and good, but Mythic+ is exactly the content myself and many others wanted. Why else do you think it's so popular?
    Ya i've acknowledged i'm in the minority here. Gamers are just more willing to accept toxicity as time goes on. I'm not.

    I'm pretty sure Bliz could make some changes to combat the current horrid m+ pug landscape and still keep timed dungeons. Just depends if there are enough of them like me in their ranks.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    That aren't relevant. Only for a a week or so on expansion launches.

    This is a bad faith point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You say that, but I played back then, and for every expansion after. I never saw the rampant exclusion of people based on some "meta" like we do today. Not even fucking close. Not outside of topend raiding anyway.
    Because prior to mythic+ dungeon content was a joke and mostly run for a week or 2 before raids or smashed for badges/valor MHz

    Raiding was the “real” PvE end game.

    Now dungeons are an alternative progression and gearing system providing gear that rivals, and in some slots are better, than the top raid gear. So as the difficulty rises, people need to be better to meet the difficulty and when you’re pugging randoms with no idea how good they are it’s a recipe for failing miserably without a good screening tool.

    You could argue the game was better when dungeons were regulated to easy mode status for badge farm, and maybe to some it was, but to others having a dungeon based alternative progression system is amazing.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •