Page 9 of 33 FirstFirst ...
7
8
9
10
11
19
... LastLast
  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    Well, it's one way or the other - problem is WoW combat system, at it's core does not work well with infinitely scalable difficulty - even if you have your BiS gear on highest possible ilvl, play the most meta spec and have perfect execution - you will reach a point where you simply just cannot progress more, and the only thing left will be praying to RNG-esus for more favorable crits / dodges / procs - as this is the base of the combat system - turn based dice rolls.
    But that is true of any system unless it offers a never ending source of character power. It has nothing to do with turn based dice rolls and everything to do with character power. If character power has a limit then what they can defeat has a limit as well. The timer also isn't just there for bragging rights of the elite players. With out it there isn't much of a challenge. Because every encounter can wait for cooldowns etc.

    The only way to ensure a challenge exists with out a timer is to tune the content for a perfect scenario. That wall of progress you mentioned. Which doesn't really work for ranks or as a way to reward gear. It would also make boosts super easy to give as higher item level players could easily boost lesser keys if the only thing that makes the content difficult was numbers.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Gratz View Post
    This is what gearscore did. It created a simple system for lazy players to think they suddenly had a handle on determining the skill of a player. If they had thought about for a few seconds they would realized that: Gearscore does not show how many runs you have completed, how long they took, how many times you died, how much damage you took and best of all, how many times you DID NOT get loot.

    Standing next to you is another player who did the exact same content, the same number of times(they are in the same raid group) but got drops and you did not. Typical lazy players who had no clue how to determine a good player by running content with them and using experience to make a judement call run up to both players. They mouse over one player then the other. "ThIS 1 is beTTer." Gearscore for lazy people.

    It works the same way with RIO and even though there is loads more information to look at lazy players still just want a giant number to do all the thinking for them. Lazy players love gearscore when they have high gearscore, hate gearscore when they don't. Same people who won't invite meta classes and will only play meta classes. They are both sides of the same coin. imo
    Lmao. Even the in-game RIO addon shows how fast you ran your highest keys via score, your entire max key history, and the number of dungeon runs you've completed in time in each level bracket. That combined with ilvl is all you need to know about anyone you're considering running with. Don't like it, make your own groups. The majority have cleared adapted to using it.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Never did I say that m+ is a bad thing. In contrast, I stated that it is a good thing. Still, Blizzard used Diablo 3 as a proof of concept for many systems that later got introduced in WoW. Blizzard did not invent those systems, but if there weren't successful In diablo, they would not have been implemented in WoW.
    So by your own argument Diablo 3 is not inspiration for Mythic+ since Challenge mode existed in WoW prior to rifts in Diablo 3. Weird how you keep defeating your own argument isn't it? If Mythic+ is inspired by Rifts, and Rifts are inspired by Torchlight then CM is also inspired by Torchlight and other similar games since it is the precursor to M+. Or are you going to admit your prior claims to calling the WoW version inspired from Diablo devs false?

    If similar concepts are not bad why do you keep up a Diablo influence? It isn't okay for any spec to be bad in end-game content. Raids are not inherently above M+ and tuning only for raids is terrible game design anyways.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-03-15 at 05:50 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #164
    Need to remove m+ it’s not working

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post
    You are tiny bit wrong there - dungeons already have a system which prevents you from waiting for lust and CD-s for every pack - it's called bosses - if you would ever reach the point where you need to BL / CD every trash pack, good luck with downing a boss.

    Just look at tyranical weeks - how many runs just fail there because they do not have enough throughput / skill / prides left to down a particular boss?

    Timer is an obsolete mechanic for an infinitely scalable content, way more interesting execution-wise limiter just from game design perspective would be an actual wipe limit (which is partially included in the timer)
    what about tyranical weeks ? paradoxaly most of my best timers on tyranical weeks. why ? because bosses are just about executing mechanics - and up to 15 with pride / bl if you dont fuck up, nothign on bosses can really kill you when you do it with like 220 gear because they melt down.

    ofc above it may scale badly but lets be honest how many people play above 15.

    on the other trash can be always easy to fuck up - sometimes lack of 1 interupt among chaos of pull can wipe you - while on bosses you just focus boss mechanics. unless you are on mdi level that you pull trash/pride to boss .

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Every dungeon has 3 non-timed versions.
    That aren't relevant. Only for a a week or so on expansion launches.

    This is a bad faith point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But that sort of thing existed even with non-timed dungeons. Gear score was a thing in WotLK for example. Players will always look for a way to make their time the most efficient. The problem isn't that the system creates elitism and toxicity it is that it can be exploited for such. But there really isn't much that can be done about it other then the community choosing to be kinder as a whole.

    Which has a very slim chance of happening. There are still a lot who limit that elitism and are not toxic but the bad apples always stand out more.

    - - - Updated - - -



    As long as Mythic+ is a thing you can't have more then 3. That is simply because of the way it balance works. Normal to heroic to Mythic. The progressively harder content would need a starting point in order to fit with in the style of gearing that WoW uses. It can't be a mode after Mythic because of the way Mythic+ works. It is possible to create a mode beyond Mythic but gear rewards wouldn't work out very well if you had to still progress through all of Mythic+ just to attempt the harder content.

    If it is content that isn't timed then it will just be a matter of raw dps or mechanic checks. Which isn't very challenging and since it is only 5-player base you have to design around not having all abilities that a raid group can have access to. Which means even more classes or specs would be kept out by the community because Blizzard hasn't made everything a basic 1:1 copy. Demo Warlocks finally got a interrupt on their spec pet but it still has limitations compared to other class interrupts. So even ignoring DPS potential they might rank lower then a class that has quicker cooldowns on their interrupts.

    Mythic+ is really the best solution to challenging 5-mans. That doesn't mean it can't see improvements and realistically the next expansion should change something to give it a fresher coat of paint. Since it hasn't changed that much since Legion. But the core system doesn't need much change so I'm not sure what they could do differently.
    You say that, but I played back then, and for every expansion after. I never saw the rampant exclusion of people based on some "meta" like we do today. Not even fucking close. Not outside of topend raiding anyway.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Lmao. Even the in-game RIO addon shows how fast you ran your highest keys via score, your entire max key history, and the number of dungeon runs you've completed in time in each level bracket. That combined with ilvl is all you need to know about anyone you're considering running with. Don't like it, make your own groups. The majority have cleared adapted to using it.
    ye and then you end up with stuff like boomkins doing half of dps of my frost mage on every single trash pack - and mediocre burst on boss - because he has such a score .... while being boosted by others because he was a boomkin.

    for me raider.io is usless at this point of expansion - to many people already got boosted by just spaming dungeons.

    if you want then regardless of how crap you are eventually you will get score.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    what about tyranical weeks ? paradoxaly most of my best timers on tyranical weeks. why ? because bosses are just about executing mechanics - and up to 15 with pride / bl if you dont fuck up, nothign on bosses can really kill you when you do it with like 220 gear because they melt down.
    220 is 10 item levels beyond the end of run reward so that gear level should make the run easy. Which if you are just running it for the weekly great vault you might as well do a +14 since it rewards the same item level as a +15.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    Why? Even when it was just challenge modes, I knew that I wanted more out of it. Cosmetics are fine and good, but Mythic+ is exactly the content myself and many others wanted. Why else do you think it's so popular?
    Ya i've acknowledged i'm in the minority here. Gamers are just more willing to accept toxicity as time goes on. I'm not.

    I'm pretty sure Bliz could make some changes to combat the current horrid m+ pug landscape and still keep timed dungeons. Just depends if there are enough of them like me in their ranks.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    That aren't relevant. Only for a a week or so on expansion launches.

    This is a bad faith point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You say that, but I played back then, and for every expansion after. I never saw the rampant exclusion of people based on some "meta" like we do today. Not even fucking close. Not outside of topend raiding anyway.
    Because prior to mythic+ dungeon content was a joke and mostly run for a week or 2 before raids or smashed for badges/valor MHz

    Raiding was the “real” PvE end game.

    Now dungeons are an alternative progression and gearing system providing gear that rivals, and in some slots are better, than the top raid gear. So as the difficulty rises, people need to be better to meet the difficulty and when you’re pugging randoms with no idea how good they are it’s a recipe for failing miserably without a good screening tool.

    You could argue the game was better when dungeons were regulated to easy mode status for badge farm, and maybe to some it was, but to others having a dungeon based alternative progression system is amazing.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    You say that, but I played back then, and for every expansion after. I never saw the rampant exclusion of people based on some "meta" like we do today. Not even fucking close. Not outside of topend raiding anyway.
    So then why was gear score a thing in WotLK? People always carried about that stuff and 12 years later it has grown in awareness. Some of it was because of systems Blizzard introduced like reforging where most people required an addon or external site to tell them what the best stats to change were after hitting hit cap. The player reliance on tools like that is a natural evolution.

    Player awareness, skill, and expectations change a lot over years. Even if WoW stayed exactly the same the expectations of gamers as a whole has changed. Do a lot rely on the meta more then they should? Sure. It isn't toxic or elitism to want people to play well but people can certainly take that concept to extremes which makes it toxic.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I'm playing at a much lower level then you, but I see it in m+ too. The example I always reference is the pull with the Shards of Halkias and the three casters in HOA. The collector spawns extra adds so he has to be interrupted, and the two casters cast "wicked bolt" which chunks off about 25% of a tank's health if it's not interrupted. That's just one of the 20 odd pulls, and not nearly the hardest pull, in one of the easier dungeons, and it requires coordinating 3 interrupts. Sure, not too hard to do in a coordinated group, but it's hard to plan all that out if you're in a random pug, so pugs wipe all the time on that pull. Eliminating just one of those interrupts (or substantially nerfing the bolt damage) would not really impact the MDI level players at all because they interrupt everything, but it would suddenly make the dungeon a lot less punishing on pugs.
    You do know you dont have to pull all 4 of em right? You can just grab those 2 casters with sthing else if your group has issues. If after the first try on that pack you noticed that 3 interrupts are impossible for your group, why the hell would you force the same pull again?

  13. #173
    Mechagnome sunxsera's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    EU - Blackmoore
    Posts
    732
    Had the same problem with my ~1.6k rio Havoc - and DHs are not even bad in M+.
    My 1.1k Hunter got invites a lot faster.

    Metagameplay

    Warlocks are fine though.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Because prior to mythic+ dungeon content was a joke and mostly run for a week or 2 before raids or smashed for badges/valor MHz

    Raiding was the “real” PvE end game.

    Now dungeons are an alternative progression and gearing system providing gear that rivals, and in some slots are better, than the top raid gear. So as the difficulty rises, people need to be better to meet the difficulty and when you’re pugging randoms with no idea how good they are it’s a recipe for failing miserably without a good screening tool.

    You could argue the game was better when dungeons were regulated to easy mode status for badge farm, and maybe to some it was, but to others having a dungeon based alternative progression system is amazing.
    Again, sigh, dungeons don't need a timer to be hard. Case in point, release Cata heroics.

    I don't know, I guess i'm just an old mmo boomer yelling at clouds. Everything has become so corrupted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So then why was gear score a thing in WotLK? People always carried about that stuff and 12 years later it has grown in awareness. Some of it was because of systems Blizzard introduced like reforging where most people required an addon or external site to tell them what the best stats to change were after hitting hit cap. The player reliance on tools like that is a natural evolution.

    Player awareness, skill, and expectations change a lot over years. Even if WoW stayed exactly the same the expectations of gamers as a whole has changed. Do a lot rely on the meta more then they should? Sure. It isn't toxic or elitism to want people to play well but people can certainly take that concept to extremes which makes it toxic.
    You answered your own question in your first sentence. Now players who have no business being toxic elitist cunts, and weren't back in the day, now are.

    It's not toxic to want people to play well, true. What IS toxic is expecting perfection from everyone or you start berating them. What IS toxic is half of specs being passed over like they're memes and can't do the content, which is objectively false.

    Idk, I give up discussing this on this forum. I'm just an mmo boomer with a different idea about how the game should be. And it's certainly not this toxic hellhole that currently exists.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Again, sigh, dungeons don't need a timer to be hard. Case in point, release Cata heroics. I don't know, I guess i'm just an old mmo boomer yelling at clouds. Everything has become so corrupted.
    Cataclysm heroics at release were not hard if you were a skilled player though. Harder then a heroic should be? Sure. Mythic+ with out a timer isn't a challenge though. It is why you hear stories of groups doing an untimed run down a player. And you hear the odd story of a player that left getting loot hours later. The timer is what creates a challenge to otherwise normal content.

    It isn't corruption. Information and ways to improve are all around us now so a general expectation of performance has increased. The internet as a whole is a lot different then it was years ago.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    What IS toxic is half of specs being passed over like they're memes and can't do the content, which is objectively false.
    You mean not being invited to a key cause they invited another player is considered toxicity? its always hilarious to read this argument xd i guess some people really are entitled enough that they think they deserve quick invites to any key they sign up for.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Cataclysm heroics at release were not hard if you were a skilled player though. Harder then a heroic should be? Sure. Mythic+ with out a timer isn't a challenge though. It is why you hear stories of groups doing an untimed run down a player. And you hear the odd story of a player that left getting loot hours later. The timer is what creates a challenge to otherwise normal content.

    It isn't corruption. Information and ways to improve are all around us now so a general expectation of performance has increased. The internet as a whole is a lot different then it was years ago.
    Explaining why the corruption is there doesn't make it any less corrupt.

  18. #178
    Consider it a blessing that you're not wasting time doing m+.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    You mean not being invited to a key cause they invited another player is considered toxicity? its always hilarious to read this argument xd i guess some people really are entitled enough that they think they deserve quick invites to any key they sign up for.
    I said no such thing about entitlement to invites. I merely pointed out the fact that half of specs are treated as a meme, despite being fully capable of clearing the content. Maybe toxic isn't the right word for that, but it's not ok.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    You answered your own question in your first sentence. Now players who have no business being toxic elitist cunts, and weren't back in the day, now are.
    Given your escalation of language I'm going to guess you are closer to toxic then you seem to want to acknowledge. And that may be the problem in your view. The same type of player that pretend to be elite back then is the same type that would be now. Nothing has changed on that front. Idiots have and always will be idiots. You may just encounter more of them due to how cross-realm everything is.

    Not everyone berates players that are not perfect. Not everyone passes over poor performing specs. But if everything else is equal why wouldn't someone take a spec that performs better? That isn't being elite or toxic it is simply being smart about your group and time. Usually though you only see that the higher you get in M+ and raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Explaining why the corruption is there doesn't make it any less corrupt.
    Creating an illusion in your mind also doesn't make it real.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •