1.5K Rio 224 ilvl and cant get in +15s... Guess which class ?

[Strongsyde]

just learn a new class...

[deenman]

Non-timed dungeons don't get meta slaved nearly as hard.

Making dungeons into a timed min-max esport was a mistake.

it has to be timed to determine the next key lvl,you can take all the time you want sniffing flowers and not time it,you still get loot

[tomten]

My last 3 runs all had a warlock in them. Honestly, i see them quite often.
I see far less warriors for example.

[Gasparde]

Oh boohoo, the poor Warlock who's topping the meters in every raid encounter can't get into an m+, boohoo.

Try being a Ret Paladin for a week and then come again. Try being a Feral Druid. Try being an Enhancer. Try being literally anything but the most reliably overpowered PvE class that just so happens to not be fotm for this specific subset of PvE content this once.

[Azerate]

So Challenge modes being a timed run has nothing to do with current Mythic+ being a timed run? The only thing they share in common with rifts is a progressive difficulty which is nothing inherent to Diablo design. It is weird how blind people get when they look for design scapegoats.

Diablo is an easy target because it's both made by Blizzard and it's an ARPG, and simpler by design. So haters can claim that the game is getting worse and more simplsitic (like an arpg)

[Bee76]

It's overtuned dungeons, or else a fundamental change in who should expect to be able to clear +15s. In my opinion, heroic and +15 m+ should be relatively puggable (hardcore players have mythic raiding and pushing keys beyond 15). In the past that was the norm, but in Shadowlands so far it's not. Pugs aren't killing Denathrius to nearly the same extent they killed previous bosses on heroic, and +15 mythics are much harder to complete with a random pug group because of the interrupt/tank kiting meta. That's at the root of all these threads.

I totally agree to this, mate.

[Frozenbro]

It's overtuned dungeons, or else a fundamental change in who should expect to be able to clear +15s. In my opinion, heroic and +15 m+ should be relatively puggable (hardcore players have mythic raiding and pushing keys beyond 15). In the past that was the norm, but in Shadowlands so far it's not. Pugs aren't killing Denathrius to nearly the same extent they killed previous bosses on heroic, and +15 mythics are much harder to complete with a random pug group because of the interrupt/tank kiting meta. That's at the root of all these threads.

Although I would be curious to look at how the proliferation of boosting has affected pugging. Even my buddy in a 5/10 mythic guild with KSM is boosting keys right now, and that's new.

Depends whats your comparison, cause if your bar to gauge is BFA where everyone and my mom got carried by corruption, yeah no thats not a good comparison, PvE content in SL is indeed harder than BFA but your average player is also experimenting the truth aka how he really plays, since they got spoiled by corruption allowing them to do a dps they never deserved to begin with, so now in SL with nothing to spoil them, they dont perform.

[munkeyinorbit]

The valor system introduced a perverted effect :

1- People who get their achievement will now farm +15 for loot. They got higher RIO that those who couldn't have the achievement last week
2- The people without achivement will now be stuck because the +15 will litteraly be invaded by higher RIO player that are only there to farm their loot to upgrade.

In short, we're fucked.

Hahahaha. No. Make your own group. It's flooded with high rio, high ilvl players who know what they're doing. I pugged 4 keys this week on ilvl 172 warlock. Now I'm going to get a 216 in vault.

[Nnyco]

You're a dps, theres million of yours. Has nothing todo with your class/r.io/spec or whatever you put in your head the reason is you dont get invite.

[Frozenbro]

DPS usually isn't the issue. It's mechanics that assume a level of coordination that is hard for pugs to achieve. I'd love it if encounters were tuned more around throughput because that's fun to overcome as you get more gear. In Shadowlands, gear doesn't help you because the gap between handling mechanics perfectly and being less coordinated is far larger than the difference in gear between a 205 group and a 220 group.

In that case i agree, some fights are designed so poorly that getting more gear helps with absolutely nothing, the big offenders being mythic xymox and mythic generals, we always despise doing them on farm, blizz needs to stop designing encounters based on tight timers or getting more gear makes almost no difference, this is just terrible design and everyone who raids mythic hates Mythic Generals for that reason.

[Argorwal]

imagine thinking that 5man dungeon should be the more important thing to do in a M M O R P G , rofl

where is the multiplayer content ?
where are the area raiding ?
where are the multiple monsters invasion invading cities ?

etc etc.. the game is just about going in closed arena, closed 5man dungeon, closed 20man raid and people think this game is an MMO

WoW has always been instanced based, not sure why you are expecting that to change after 16 years.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm playing at a much lower level then you, but I see it in m+ too. The example I always reference is the pull with the Shards of Halkias and the three casters in HOA. The collector spawns extra adds so he has to be interrupted, and the two casters cast "wicked bolt" which chunks off about 25% of a tank's health if it's not interrupted. That's just one of the 20 odd pulls in one of the easier dungeons, and it requires coordinating 3 interrupts. Sure, not too hard to do, but it's hard to plan all that out if you're in a random pug, so pugs wipe all the time on that pull. Eliminating just one of those interrupts would not really impact the MDI level players at all because they interrupt everything, but it would suddenly make the dungeon a lot less punishing on pugs.

When content is giving mythic level items in your vault, it’s ok to expect the players to actually do more then pew pew.

Mythic+ is still by far the easiest and most accessible path to 226 gear.

[Varaben]

m+ is a symptom of wanting to make dungeons matter,and its one of the best aditions to the game,the fact that players are meta slaves doesnt speak to the system itself,you can time a 15 with literaly any comp just fine

There’s literally nothing Blizz can do without being super heavy handed to stop meta slaving. It’s just how the game is - look at Classic and world buffs.

[LordVargK]

So Challenge modes being a timed run has nothing to do with current Mythic+ being a timed run? The only thing they share in common with rifts is a progressive difficulty which is nothing inherent to Diablo design. It is weird how blind people get when they look for design scapegoats.

Well, rifts are timed as well and you need to kill a specific number of mobs to finish it. You can not change your gear/skills while doing a run, same as m+. If you die you get a time penalty. You do it for the gear and you need a key to do it.
There is no difference between a rift and a m+ dungeon, except there's only one boss in rifts.

Challenge mode had scaled gear, no mob kill count, no penalty on death, no gear rewards and you could change gear and choose between two saved specs. You had infinite tries and had free access.
The only thing that CM has in common with m+ is the timer.

M+ really is a 1:1 copy of rifts and that Diablo devs were working on WoW for Legion is common knowledge.

[rhorle]

M+ really is a 1:1 copy of rifts and that Diablo devs were working on WoW for Legion is common knowledge.

See this is where we know you are blind. It is hardly a 1 for 1 copy of rifts because rifts do not have a fixed layout or fixed bosses. Also normal rifts are not timed. Only greater rifts are timed. Mythic+ is an evolution of Challenge modes that predates rifts since they were not included until 2014 when Reaper of Souls was released. Mythic+ is an evolution of Challenge modes plain and simple. You don't have to be the exact same thing as a previous iteration in order to be an evolution of it. lol.

[LordVargK]

See this is where we know you are blind. It is hardly a 1 for 1 copy of rifts because rifts do not have a fixed layout or fixed bosses. Also normal rifts are not timed. Only greater rifts are timed. Mythic+ is an evolution of Challenge modes that predates rifts since they were not included until 2014 when Reaper of Souls was released. Mythic+ is an evolution of Challenge modes plain and simple. You don't have to be the exact same thing as a previous iteration in order to be an evolution of it. lol.

But how can you not see that m+ shares more with rifts than with CM? Yes, I agree that the randomness of rifts is a major difference that I did not think about. But the function of m+ and CM is fundamentally different. CM's successor was probably the mage tower, which served the same function as CM's did.

[rhorle]

But how can you not see that m+ shares more with rifts than with CM? Yes, I agree that the randomness of rifts is a major difference that I did not think about. But the function of m+ and CM is fundamentally different. CM's successor was probably the mage tower, which served the same function as CM's did.

The mage tower was not a timed run in a dungeon though or any where close to the same concept. Lol. So it is in no way a successor. I have never said that the concept of rifts and CM/M+ are not similar in nature. Only that Mythic+ is not because of Rifts since the beginning of the concept in WoW pre-dates rifts. Mythic+ is a natural evolution of CM runs as they addressed many of the flaws people had with CM in both MoP and WoD.

[LordVargK]

The mage tower was not a timed run in a dungeon though or any where close to the same concept. Lol. So it is in no way a successor. I have never said that the concept of rifts and CM/M+ are not similar in nature. Only that Mythic+ is not because of Rifts since the beginning of the concept in WoW pre-dates rifts. Mythic+ is a natural evolution of CM runs as they addressed many of the flaws people had with CM in both MoP and WoD.

Which flaws? That they did not award loot? Because that's seems to be the only thing that WoW players care about now. And the concept of rifts was not invented by Blizzard (as if modern Blizz would invent anything, lol), so neither cm nor rifts predate one another. And we can't really tell which one of us is right, because neither one of us works at blizz.
But in Legion many things were changed:
Loot got huge random upgrade procs (like ancient in D3), many legendaries were introduced (like in D3) and dropped now randomly from any content (again, like D3), dungeons got scaling difficulties, you got AP that worked similar to paragon levels, the whole game was shifted to fast action combat. The DH plays like a D3 character with few skills that get customized by talents (runes) and breaks with the typical tab targeting WoW had. WQs and emissary quests were introduced, that worked exactly like quests in diablo do. With all those changes combined with the fact that at this time the WoW team grew because diablo devs joined it, you might excuse my suspicion, that m+ was heavily inspired by diablo as well.

[rhorle]

Which flaws? That they did not award loot? Because that's seems to be the only thing that WoW players care about now. And the concept of rifts was not invented by Blizzard (as if modern Blizz would invent anything, lol), so neither cm nor rifts predate one another. And we can't really tell which one of us is right, because neither one of us works at blizz.

CM was implemented in WoW before Rifts were in Diablo 3. It is clear which concept made it to reality first. Blizzard also tweaked the concept of rifts including major over hauls during the course of RoS "active" development. One of the biggest complaints from CM was that was just a basic speed run where as Mythic+ is designed to have a more forgiving timer and plays more on competence/skill then a straight speed run.

Half of your D3 comparison are not even similarites. You keep showing how blind you have it in order to hate on the design for being "Diablo-like". Weird how you keep having to use exaggerations or out right false claims isn't it? The WoW version of a Demon Hunter plays nothing like a Diablo 3 character. Lol. World Quests do not act exactly like bounties do in D3. Similar concept? Sure but there is nothing wrong with similar concepts.

The WoW team always grows from developers on other projects when they need a new task. They also shrink when developers are moved to a new project. Do you know nothing of game design? lol.

[Rinaul]

Fascinating that you take the time to reply if you don't care.

Fascinating that these threads still make it here. Thought this was a forum not a blog.

[kamuimac]

There’s literally nothing Blizz can do without being super heavy handed to stop meta slaving. It’s just how the game is - look at Classic and world buffs.

ye but this expansion they went full "stupid" mode with meta. most of this comes down to 2 things - uncapped aoe of fire mages and convoke for druids. 3 months in they didnt nerf it one bit ridiculus