1.5K Rio 224 ilvl and cant get in +15s... Guess which class ?

[Frozenbro]

I said no such thing about entitlement to invites. I merely pointed out the fact that half of specs are treated as a meme, despite being fully capable of clearing the content. Maybe toxic isn't the right word for that, but it's not ok.

I mean, some specs are objectively worse than others at X content, and this shows in actual data thats all over the place, pugs take this and make their decision on who to invite, if you have 2 players queued for your key, both are 1700 raider.io, one is a fire mage and the other is a feral druid, who gets invited?

[Spazzix]

Okay but wait...did you buy your 1.5? Or do you have a premade group you got 1.5 with? How did you get 1.5 if you don't get into groups?

Maybe you solo'd 1.5k IO? Is this a "warlock is busted needs a nerf" thread?

[Hinastorm]

I mean, some specs are objectively worse than others at X content, and this shows in actual data thats all over the place, pugs take this and make their decision on who to invite, if you have 2 players queued for your key, both are 1700 raider.io, one is a fire mage and the other is a feral druid, who gets invited?

Ya, meta spec X will clear a key 20 seconds faster than non-meta spec Z, so let's just never bring Z. That is the current reality.

At least in raids bringing non-meta specs makes sense to some degree since if you brought all of the same classes, people would struggle to get geared.

[Frozenbro]

Ya, meta spec X will clear a key 20 seconds faster than non-meta spec Z, so let's just never bring Z. That is the current reality.

Not really the thought process used, they are gonna invite the fire mage cause its kit is literally tailored for m+, and there are better chances with the fire mage than with the feral druid, thats all there is to it, unless they bother checking their logs, which is a great tool but thats not the reality, the reality is check io to filter the "potentially" bad players, then check meta specs, all of this is to reduce your chances of inviting a bad player.

Does this mean that the feral druid is bad? not at all, he could be amazing, but its up to the average pug leader to decide if he takes its chances or not, and the only one who can change this is blizz, not the community.

[rhorle]

Ya, i'm the toxic one for pointing out a very real problem. Christ. This forum has really nosedived.

Exaggerating to play a victim is a sign of toxicity. I never said you might be a little bit toxic for saying there is a problem but for the use of your foul language.

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At least in raids bringing non-meta specs makes sense to some degree since if you brought all of the same classes, people would struggle to get geared.

Do you know what personal loot is? Have you actually played recently? Bring the player, not the class is a great mentality to have but is never as simple in execution. Because balance is never as equal as it should be. And in any level of content a guild/group might need that performance boost to succeed. Even raid leaders need to factor the performance of a spec when looking at the success of the raid team. Sometimes even a small difference can mean success or failure.

That extra "20 seconds" as you say can really help with adds or taking pressure off healers, or whatever other mechanic there is.

[Mamushi]

Not really the thought process used, they are gonna invite the fire mage cause its kit is literally tailored for m+, and there are better chances with the fire mage than with the feral druid, thats all there is to it, unless they bother checking their logs, which is a great tool but thats not the reality, the reality is check io to filter the "potentially" bad players, then check meta specs, all of this is to reduce your chances of inviting a bad player.

Does this mean that the feral druid is bad? not at all, he could be amazing, but its up to the average pug leader to decide if he takes its chances or not, and the only one who can change this is blizz, not the community.

From what I've noticed around the 1.5-1.6k io range at least there is so much variance in player skill right now that the non-meta specs can easily beat the meta specs in DPS and there is not much difference in utility either depending on the group composition (for example I would invite the Feral over the Mage in your example if my group had a Resto shaman/MM hunter and a Monk or Warrior DPS or Tank in it.). I have seen Ferals, Fury warriors and Survival hunters competing or outright beating Fire mages and MM hunters etc. (doing 6.5-7k overall in +15-17s depending on dungeon, which is more than enough).

The actually well performing meta DPS players (like Fire mages and Boomkins) probably have on average higher rating right now because they have had an easier time getting into groups earlier on, and the leftover players of those specs are right now around the 1.5k range. I guess you could argue that you chances of timing a key would be better 'on average' if you picked a meta DPS spec over a non-meta one even in 15s, but I think that it would still be pretty unreliable. In my opinion the difference in spec performance truly starts to matter at keystone levels 20 and up where the skill variance between players is also smaller, and meta DPS specs routinely beat the rest in almost all areas.

[Tradu]

Again, sigh, dungeons don't need a timer to be hard. Case in point, release Cata heroics.

I don't know, I guess i'm just an old mmo boomer yelling at clouds. Everything has become so corrupted.

They do, because otherwise you just end up with degenerate gameplay like waiting for CDs/Lust for every pull once you reach a high enough level.

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Ya, meta spec X will clear a key 20 seconds faster than non-meta spec Z, so let's just never bring Z. That is the current reality.

At least in raids bringing non-meta specs makes sense to some degree since if you brought all of the same classes, people would struggle to get geared.

Quite literally the opposite of that is true. The ideal raid comp in terms of gearing quickly is 20x the same class(or 30x in heroic, which we've seen world first guilds get extremely close to, especially in BfA with viewer raids, and will likely see again next tier)

[Sanitee]

Ya, i'm the toxic one for pointing out a very real problem. Christ. This forum has really nosedived.

What problem are you pointing out exactly though? That your class doesn't get invited or that you are not picked pver the 3-6 dozen other dps who apply to these keys? I am forced to run my own keys as a bm hunter, in the 12-14 range, and there's like 50 dps to choose from when i do, half of them having well over 220 item level and loads of experience.
The problem isn't you or your class, it's the incredibly cutthroat competition you face as a dps.

As for my tanks... usually apply and get invite, i'd say 9/10 times. But there's a huge excess of overgeared dps and every time you que you're in a pool of 50-100 other people competing for 2-3 slots.

[Tinary]

Yup, highly aware. But if you pull the whole dungeon like that you won't make the timer. There was actually a thread about how hard HOA is to time for pug groups on here a few days ago. You have to take some chances, whether it's pulling 3 packs at start, pulling a couple packs near stairs, etc. Every pull has challenges like this, I'm not picking this one because it's uniquely difficult, more so it's something that +15 groups do regularly that pug groups fail at and I think it does a good job of illustrating the difference between the group types.

Thats why i said with something else. You can pick the huntsman and bears with it, another one has 2 mobs at stairs. Those golem lil dudes at 3rd. Not everyone has to follow the 'standard' route. Tho it ia funny that the ones who call meta bad and so on seem to be only able to run 'meta' route. Also the timer aint that strict, just few days ago we did a run with me as 215 tank as highest ilvl with 202 dps and 204 healer and wiped twice cause on alts and couldnt handle the exstra pulls into pride. Still made it with 4 min to spare. Theres a reason why its the easiest dungeon.

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As for my tanks... usually apply and get invite, i'd say 9/10 times. But there's a huge excess of overgeared dps and every time you que you're in a pool of 50-100 other people competing for 2-3 slots.

Depending on the dungeon, theres more tanks applying to dos than dps atm in 15 to 17 range. That sweet sweet trinket������

[erifwodahs]

Making the actual bosses the hard limit would make metas so much more exclusionary.

Making it time based, where team synergy on pulls and coordination of handling mechanics allows for way larger variety of specs (yeah still a meta) then hard boss throughput checks.

I would like to agree, but classic showed different.
Classes with lower utility or dps would get ignored so much more. You could diversify that I guess by making dungeons prone to different types of CC, but that would only mean that class A is mandatory for X dungeon, while no one takes it to dungeon Y.
Unless you make every class the same with same toolkit and same damage, just different visuals there will always be meta. It won't matter if you can CC 3 mobs in the pack and pull mobs 2 at a time. If there is a class which allows you to do 3 mob pulls, everyone will do that.

[Nzx]

ye and then you end up with stuff like boomkins doing half of dps of my frost mage on every single trash pack - and mediocre burst on boss - because he has such a score .... while being boosted by others because he was a boomkin.

for me raider.io is usless at this point of expansion - to many people already got boosted by just spaming dungeons.

if you want then regardless of how crap you are eventually you will get score.

You are fundamentally misunderstanding how RIO works, as are just about everyone who complains about it. The only way to get "boosted" to an actual good RIO profile would be to purchase carries at 16/17 level for all 8 dungeons, and then complete a large number of 15+ keys within the timer as well. People who look exclusively at score are just as bad as people with no score applying to 15s because "they're really good they just don't have time to run keys".

[Hinastorm]

They do, because otherwise you just end up with degenerate gameplay like waiting for CDs/Lust for every pull once you reach a high enough level.

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Quite literally the opposite of that is true. The ideal raid comp in terms of gearing quickly is 20x the same class(or 30x in heroic, which we've seen world first guilds get extremely close to, especially in BfA with viewer raids, and will likely see again next tier)

I don't recall that happening in Cata (waiting for every pull to lust). I'm curious as to why you think that is. Honestly.

It doesn't even matter, it's a problem that can be fixed by design. Cap lusts to x uses per dungeon run or something. Also, a lust isn't the deciding factor on if a group can beat a hard boss. Bosses are the roadblocks, not trash, in un-timed dungeons.

People act like the problems with m+ are unsolvable. They're not.

[Tradu]

I don't recall that happening in Cata (waiting for every pull to lust). I'm curious as to why you think that is. Honestly.

It doesn't even matter, it's a problem that can be fixed by design. Cap lusts to x uses per dungeon run or something. Also, a lust isn't the deciding factor on if a group can beat a hard boss. Bosses are the roadblocks, not trash, in un-timed dungeons.

People act like the problems with m+ are unsolvable. They're not.

If you have infinitely scaling difficulty, eventually you reach a point where you need everything for every pull. With the timer in place, you never reach that point, because you run out of time long before you need full CDs + Lust for every pull. It didn't happen in Cata dungeons for good groups because the dungeons weren't actually hard. Bad groups definitely had times where they needed to wait for Lust/CDs.

Lust is absolutely a deciding factor in whether you can beat a boss or not once you reach high enough key level.

M+ problems definitely aren't unsolvable, removing the timer just isn't part of any solution to any problem that M+ has.

[Hinastorm]

If you have infinitely scaling difficulty, eventually you reach a point where you need everything for every pull. With the timer in place, you never reach that point, because you run out of time long before you need full CDs + Lust for every pull. It didn't happen in Cata dungeons for good groups because the dungeons weren't actually hard. Bad groups definitely had times where they needed to wait for Lust/CDs.

Lust is absolutely a deciding factor in whether you can beat a boss or not once you reach high enough key level.

M+ problems definitely aren't unsolvable, removing the timer just isn't part of any solution to any problem that M+ has.

You don't need infinite scaling to keep dungeons relevant.

Cata heroics were hard for 95% of the playerbase, so not really sure what your argument is there.

I mean, at least you acknowledge m+ has problems unlike all the other clowns. That's refreshing.

[Tradu]

You don't need infinite scaling to keep dungeons relevant.

I mean, at least you acknowledge m+ has problems unlike all the other clowns. That's refreshing.

You don't, but you need so many difficulty levels that you might as well.

The problems I have with M+ are probably not the ones you have:
- Tyrannical should be removed and fortified should be the baseline
- Bolstering should be removed
- Dungeons need to be more open instead of the very linear ones we have in SL
- M+ loot needs to rotate each season, having the same loot available every season makes gearing stale
- Every boss should unlock a checkpoint/graveyard
- Covenant specific mechanics should be available to everybody on M+, leave the covenant requirement on lower difficulties for roleplayers
- Dungeons like Plaguefall and Necrotic Wake with the plagueborers and weapons shouldn't exist

[Hinastorm]

You don't, but you need so many difficulty levels that you might as well.

The problems I have with M+ are probably not the ones you have:
- Tyrannical should be removed and fortified should be the baseline
- Bolstering should be removed
- Dungeons need to be more open instead of the very linear ones we have in SL
- M+ loot needs to rotate each season, having the same loot available every season makes gearing stale
- Every boss should unlock a checkpoint/graveyard
- Covenant specific mechanics should be available to everybody on M+, leave the covenant requirement on lower difficulties for roleplayers
- Dungeons like Plaguefall and Necrotic Wake with the plagueborers and weapons shouldn't exist

Ya, you don't have problems with m+, just it's specific mechanics. I take back what I said.

[Draknalor186]

I too am shocked that you're finding it hard to get groups as a DPS when it's the most oversaturated role. Why would I invite your 1.5k warlock when there's 10 guys in the queue with 1.8k?

My theory is that these people think they are the only ones in the queue list, and you ignoring/declining them is a conscious decision

[Tradu]

Ya, you don't have problems with m+, just it's specific mechanics. I take back what I said.

M+'s mechanics are part of M+. I guess it only counts as having problems with M+ if you think it shouldn't exist.

[erifwodahs]

My theory is that these people think they are the only ones in the queue list, and you ignoring/declining them is a conscious decision

This.
It's not you being declined. It's someone with better stats being taken.

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You don't, but you need so many difficulty levels that you might as well.

The problems I have with M+ are probably not the ones you have:
- Tyrannical should be removed and fortified should be the baseline
- Bolstering should be removed
- Dungeons like Plaguefall and Necrotic Wake with the plagueborers and weapons shouldn't exist

I don't really agree with this.

Bolstering has been fixed. It feels so much more of a "non-affix" now
Tyranical should be brought more in-line with Forty, not removed, so tyranical would not mean dead week
Weapons/Environment makes it more interesting as long as everyone can us it - planning how to use it and succeeding is good fun.

All other points are either neutral or positive for me.

[Tradu]

I don't really agree with this.

Bolstering has been fixed. It feels so much more of a "non-affix" now
Tyranical should be brought more in-line with Forty, not removed, so tyranical would not mean dead week
Weapons/Environment makes it more interesting as long as everyone can us it - planning how to use it and succeeding is good fun.

All other points are either neutral or positive for me.

Bolstering hasn't been fixed. It's still an annoying affix that slows you down and significantly limits the pulls you can do. It's better than it used to be, but it's still not a good affix.
Tyrannical and fortified don't need to be brought in line, because they don't need to exist. That way they can actually tune both trash and bosses to be challenging but not complete bullshit, regardless of the week.
Weapons punish you excessively for wiping after using them. Environment(plagueborers) mean that there's an entire section of the dungeon where your own damage doesn't actually matter because you're just blowing everything up with friendly fire anyway.