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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    It's hard to just compare "overall dps" numbers without looking at the group composition, tank, healer, affixes, pull sizes, etc...

    He mentioned doing m+ with friends mostly, so if they have a tank/healer that know each other, the tank can judge better how much to pull. If you constantly pull 2-3 packs at the same time, the overall dps of all players will increase. Big pulls rarely happen in pugs, with some exceptions (mostly start of the dungeon with BL). I think it makes no sense to compare "overall dps" like that - it only might make sense to compare 2 players in the same run, but even then they might have differnent focuses.
    Well im aware of that. That is why I find it super weird to make a blanket statement like "most would be expected to do 6-8k, while all these people who join only doing 4-5k instead". In my experience 6-8k overall is never the MOST expectation, and only happens in super high keys or big groups who know the pulls well. I just found it weird for them to say that, thats all. I wanted to clarify to ask where this is happening for most people. In my book, "MOST" is pugs since most people are using LFG these days for everything. (Can see this with mythics, AOTC pugs, Heroic raids, Arenas, RBGS etc)
    Last edited by Zeusy; 2021-03-23 at 01:23 PM.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    No one is arguing that the tank has a lot of responsibilities in m+. Probably the most of any role. I'm saying, if people die to tentacles in the Stradama fight, that's NOT on the tank.
    Yeah, my apologies. I didn't mean to argue with you so much as launch off that point. Your point is correct.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    This is like "find the DH meta player"?

    The tank can easily BAIT the group with stupid movement that requires DH mobility to survive.

    As tank your are there to help your group with positioning and aggro management, if you want some clown role, play ranged and do what ever you want because nobody cares what you do.
    Holy crap, tank's fault if you fail movement? Not only is that SO horrible and suggests you're the kind of player who always finds someone else to blame for failing, but also showd lack of knowledge for the encounter. A tank is busy not only dodging the tentacles himself, he's also busy gaining and holding aggro on the adds without tanking them so dps don't get one shot by them. But hey, let's add to that list: micro guide people who cant think for themselves

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Yeah, my apologies. I didn't mean to argue with you so much as launch off that point. Your point is correct.
    Oh no need to apologize, also what you said wasn't wrong, I was just pointing out that the person you quoted was referencing the whole "if I die in the tentacles, it's the tank's fault" situation

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeusy View Post
    Not sure if I misread your post or it is your intention but.. I've probably done over 30 15s timed, one or two +2s, and 4-5 16s, and ive never seen someone do more damage than me outside of 1 occasion. I average 6-7k (think ive peaked at 7.4k overall which I'm fine with im pretty casual in my mythic enjoyment tbh..) overall depending on week/dungeon. This leads me to my next part:

    Where are -most- people doing 6-8k in 15s? Most people in my groups do 500-1k overall less than me (I'm a fire mage so I just assume firemage is OP). I've had numerous dungeons I do 6.2-6.7k and the other two people are doing like 4.5k-5k. I'm not saying you are wrong but how would this be the expectation for most?

    I was was just watching asuna/brainx and they were 7.4k, and 8.1k in spires 25s, with the 2nd and 3rd dps just doing over 7k (depends on dungeon obviously). In other dungons doing like 6.5-6.8k At best I could see the expectation for "most" people in 15s to be 4.5k-7k. 6-8k seems like a giant stretch that is not for MOST at all.
    Ya most people don't do it - most competent people are around that - 5.5-6k is what I consider normal dps for a 15, if you're mythic geared playing meta you're looking at 7-8k per dungeon.

    My point was that your average pug is so far from that dps that they're not worth inviting and OP seems to fit this description exactly. I don't need someone in my group doing 4k dps on a 220 geared character and dying 5-10 times per dungeon. Essentially the OP needs to get better and make your own groups. If I do a key and it goes well most of the time the person asks to add me and play again sometime - building up a group with which you play is not hard at all.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    TOP is comparatively hard to time in tyrannical weeks, because all the boss fights take a lot of time, and a single wipe usually depletes your key. Banner boss simply wipes you if you don't have the burst dps to kill banners in time, Lich has a lot of unavoidable damage and has to be killed before your healer is oom, Abomination has a huge life pool and (depending on route of course) you typically don't have BL for him. Combine that with the fact that many dps specs focus on aoe damage for m+ and don't have the greatest single target damage. The dungeon also has some trash packs that can be challenging even on tyrannical weeks.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It is 100% never the tank's fault if someone else gets hit by a tentacle. If you need a tank's guidance to dodge some huge green tentacles, it's your own fault if you get hit. I got hit by some tentacles in the past, but I never blamed it on anyone other than myself.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The mushrooms at the start aren't that bad if you just stun/cc the stormers. The rest really doesn't deal a lot of damage, but my experience is from ~15-16s, so on higher keys that might not be the case.

    Third boss is trivial if you bring a hunter, they can range pull every single add and the boss/group never has to move in the entire fight.

    Personally I disagree with using BL in phase 2 on the last boss (as a healer), because in phase 2 she alters between summoning add+tentacles and casting poison rain. In phase 3 she casts rain nonstop *while* throwing tentacles in your face, so the healer has to heal more while moving at the same time. But again, it might be different for other group compositions and higher keys.
    Why skipping fungus guys is good is cause then you dont waste time dpsing em. Why waste 5 to 6m on a trash if you can pull same amount of % under a min elsewhere?
    I dont have a hunter in my group but is he/she wasting his/her dps cds to unstealth adds? Flare can cover like 2 max. Not really difficult to unstealth em as tank.
    Last boss is all about skipping rains. If you bl the 2nd phase you usually skip the 2nd add and a rain means you and peeps have def cds for p3. Our healer prefers it that way since she can en cd first rain in p3, our def rain2 and boss dead. We are melee heavy group anyway so might just be us thingy.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinary View Post
    Why skipping fungus guys is good is cause then you dont waste time dpsing em. Why waste 5 to 6m on a trash if you can pull same amount of % under a min elsewhere?
    I dont have a hunter in my group but is he/she wasting his/her dps cds to unstealth adds? Flare can cover like 2 max. Not really difficult to unstealth em as tank.
    Last boss is all about skipping rains. If you bl the 2nd phase you usually skip the 2nd add and a rain means you and peeps have def cds for p3. Our healer prefers it that way since she can en cd first rain in p3, our def rain2 and boss dead. We are melee heavy group anyway so might just be us thingy.
    Hunter can flare 1-2, tar trap one and ice trap the last one. I'd argue that using 3 GCDs is worth a lot more than having the entire group move across the room.

    Last boss BL timing is just personal preference I guess, I won't argue with what your healer prefers =)

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    Hunter can flare 1-2, tar trap one and ice trap the last one. I'd argue that using 3 GCDs is worth a lot more than having the entire group move across the room.

    Last boss BL timing is just personal preference I guess, I won't argue with what your healer prefers =)
    Depends on a group but moving fast in a known time is less dps loss than dps class doing 3gcds dif thing while for example dh tank can just sigil em out or leap em out without losing any dps from the group. Argueing is fine, sometimes seeing anothers person pov can help your own group get better. As long as we dont resort to personal attacks i guess.
    Last edited by Tinary; 2021-03-25 at 06:24 AM.

  9. #209
    Herald of the Titans czarek's Avatar
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    Last night i jumped with pugs in few +15. That was just sweet experience 0 wipes and smooth runs. I didnt even know that holly pala can make around 3k overall dps ;o

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinary View Post
    Depends on a group but moving fast in a known time is less dps loss than dps class doing 3gcds dif thing while for example dh tank can just sigil em out or leap em out without losing any dps from the group. Argueing is fine, sometimes seeing anothers person pov can help your own group get better. As long as we dont resort to personal attacks i guess.
    Melees generally don't care that much about moving, that's right. But if you have casters, they usually prefer not to move. As someone with a hunter alt who plays 15s regularly, I don't really care about not doing dps for a couple of seconds when adds spawn. The group (including) tank usually is very happy if they don't have to move across the room. Is it necessary? Of course not, especially if you have a good group. But I think it makes the fight easier/smoother to play.

  11. #211
    Stood in the Fire AkundaMrdal's Avatar
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    On my rogue alt I was pushing my keys. Did my first +14 with 209 ilvl and around 850 RIO. Now when I time dungeon I lower my key back to +14, rinse and repeat. How fast you will find people depends on dungeon you get. It takes usually 0 - 20 minutes to find tank, mists and hoa are fast, for less desirable dungeons you wait longer. But still waiting 20 min. for tank is less annoying and time wasting than being declined for the same amount of time.

  12. #212
    our guild plans to push baby keys and work up to higher levels by practicing and working as a team. i think this is the only viable solution, to work with you guild or group of friends.

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